Hearing protection

[stingray_65]

I had the good fortune to hear a trio of young musicians this weekend.\

During a break the topic of hearing protection came up.

I was asked my preference,(foam), and how effective it is.

Well I like the foam over silicone earplugs because I've had silicone plugs seal too well and have actually caused my inner ear to think sideways was down and I fell over!.

I felt uncomfortable giving any REAL suggestions without some sort of basis in facts.

Anyone Hear (har har!) care to share some facts or opinions about hearing protection as far as stage performing goes?

I have the E mail address of the kid and would like to give some "Sound" (I'm killin me today!) advise

Ray

[PRR]

I'm shocked that a "young musician" would even care.

Don't play so bloody loud. Most audiences don't need it that loud.

Muffle the drummer. Yes, this may be difficult. But drummer is the only instrument which does not need amplification in small venues, so does not have a volume control, yet many drummers use kits loud enough to play stadiums. Everybody else has to turn-up to hear themselves. Even trumpets, which should never need boost, need boost.

If you must play large rooms, use directional speakers with minimal side/back bleed to flood the audience, then keep yourself out of the beam. But this is only some help in a room, because the reverberant (entire room) level is rarely 10dB down from the first-row level.

Blow $39 for a sound-level meter, print a copy of the OSHA noise limits. If it is too loud for employees, it is too loud for you. The OSHA limits will not prevent hearing loss, they balance damage and profit. I never went near the OSHA limits for 35 years, but my good-ear hearing declined (some loss with age may be normal even without exposure to loud sound).

Go to the audiologist. (If you have medical insurance, ask your doc for a "baseline hearing test" so it can go on insurance.) If your audiologist is compliant, explain that you live by your ears and would like "half octaves".

My good ear is reasonable but my other ear is WAY down. There's no noise-exposure reason for this: not only have I tried to be good, when I'm bad it's both-ears. So I'm getting referred to the ear/throat doctor to see if I have a drainage problem or what.

As for protection: I hate ear-plugs (maybe related to what's-up in my bad ear). I use woodshop ear-muffs for mowing and snow-blowing. (Better would be good shooter's earmuffs.) Really keep my ears warm in the snow! But maybe not appropriate for stage.

[Ritchie200]

Back when I used to play ridiculously loud, I bought those silicon shooting plugs with the valve.  They sucked because the attenuation was skewed really weird and I could not distinguish bass to vocals to drums - so I just went without.  Which is why I'm always saying "What?" today.  Plus, it was a good thing that I had long hair.  I would have been labeled a real woosy and not a REAL rocker had anyone seen them...  Later in life working in areas where stamping was going on, we had our choice of literally dozens of different styles of plugs and muffs.  There was one that was soft foam with a smooth outer surface that was comfy and I found they worked great when I played.  Since I used to spend a lot of time in the stamping area around the presses, comfort was absolutely a necessity.  The soft foam expanded VERY slowly when you inserted them, but once in place you forgot they were there.  Others hurt after a while and some even caused ear infections to some of the operators.  I still have a bag of those things!  Nobody plays at the stage volume that we used to do 30-35 years ago.  And with the in-ear monitors today, I'm surprised they even asked!  Good for them tho!

Jim (What?)

[thermion]

Peltor muffs for 50 watts and up. On my ~100W twin and 4x12 cab these muffs actually sound pretty balanced. My Peltors are a model used by jet aircraft cargo loaders. I don't gig so the cool factor is less of a concern.
HEAR-Os for shows and lower wattage amps.

[FYL]

Nobody plays at the stage volume that we used to do 30-35 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world

[simonallaway]

Do you mean these? http://www.hearos.com/earplugs/music

Ive been listening to and creating loud music for more than 20 years, and got used to the ringing after the show (and into the next day). But a few years back I went to Tinley Park, near Chicago, to see Kenny Wayne Shepard and ZZ Top. KWS was so ridiculously load it was painful. It was a very strange experience as I was the only one around that seemed to be disturbed by it at all. Luckily in the concessions area there were people handing out ear-plugs, which were a life-saver.

Similar to other's comments above, I wear ear defenders when mowing/trimming/leaf-blowing. I have a great pair of Sennheiser in-ear headphones for my iPod commute. I can listen at a pleasing volume without fighting background noise. Although chewing gum with these on makes for grotesque noises 

But in all my years of playing in bar bands it is practically impossible to get a drummer to play quietly, or muffle anything. And the sound guy I use loves his 10,000W rig. We all complain but he doesn't care.
And Ritchie...what use is a Marshall Major if it isn't ridiculously loud? You may as well sell 'em. 

[Ritchie200]

Nobody plays at the stage volume that we used to do 30-35 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world

Interesting to note that Ritchie Blackmore's guitar and amp guy is now handling Manowar's sound...

And Ritchie...what use is a Marshall Major if it isn't ridiculously loud? You may as well sell 'em.  

Gasp!!!!  I don't even know you!

I told this story before, but on zztop's world wide texas tour in 1976 (I think?) I was about 5th row center.  Someone behind us threw a pack of firecrackers that were going off as it passed between my buddy and I.  Had it not been for the paper hitting our faces and flashes, we would not have known.  But as loud as that was, it was not close to Deep Purple in 1973 - that was crazy.  Ritchie was crushing, but Jon Lord's screeching Hammond with the ring modulator actually hurt.  But yeah, standing in front of that Major for all those years has taken its toll.  I was just doing some recording about a week ago.  I got the mic hanging down in front of the 4x12 with a big upholstered chair pushed against it to muffle it.  The Major is on 4 and I have to step out of the room.  I wear radio muffs to cut the grass.  Loud is not fun anymore.
Jim

[G._Hoffman]

In the decade or so I was doing sound and lighting in large and loud venues, I always went with the foam ones.  I've tried the custom fitted ones, and they are nice I suppose, but I find the foam ones more comfortable, and while they certainly do change the sound, I've used them enough to compensate.  If I'm actually doing sound, I'll take one out for 30 seconds or so from time to time so I can check against my assumptions, but that has the problem of exposing your unprepared ear to the blast, which isn't particularly wise.  On the other hand, if you are getting paid $45/hr to do sound, you can take a minimal amount of abuse.  And even at 100 dB SPL, you aren't going to do permanent damage in 30 seconds or so.


Gabriel

[stingray_65]

Thanks Fellas,

I feel better about suggesting the foam type. I'm going to see these guys again end of February and will reassert my opinion, maybe even bring a pack of those Hear-O's

I hope this thread gets more responses and hopefully some one reading might just try some hearing protection before they wind up with this high pitched whine that I have.

Ray

[zendragon63]

Nobody plays at the stage volume that we used to do 30-35 years ago. Yeah, back when we didn't mike anything except vocals. Having plexiglass and a good stage monitor system has been a blessing--at least on stage. It is still pretty brutal out front.    

Most of the gigs we had were relatively close quarters so I'm not so sure that the drummer's crash cymbal didn't exact at least as much of a toll on my driver's side hearing as the 2204. Our work requires annual hearing checks and I am fortunate that the loss is not worse than it is. Foam is cheap and comfy and I wear them regularly. Regards

dennis

[G._Hoffman]

Thanks Fellas,

I feel better about suggesting the foam type. I'm going to see these guys again end of February and will reassert my opinion, maybe even bring a pack of those Hear-O's

I hope this thread gets more responses and hopefully some one reading might just try some hearing protection before they wind up with this high pitched whine that I have.

Ray

More than stressing the foam ones, the important thing to stress is to always use hearing protection.  Any time you are going to be making noise that can damage your hearing, use hearing protection.  Also, don't trust the OSHA guidelines.  They are not designed to stop all hearing loss, only to keep it to an "acceptable" level. 

Some degree of hearing loss is inevitable, and the only people who can actually hear from 20hz to 20khz are 18 year old Laplander farmers who have never been near a city, heard any Rock `n Roll, nor run a motor without a muffler.  I've always been careful with my hearing, and I still had noticeable hearing loss by the time I was 16.  So, you have to decide what is acceptable to you, but if you are a musician you want it to be a lot less than OSHA would have you believe!  So, any time you are making any noise over about 85 db SPL, you want to wear hearing protection of some sort.  And its not a bad idea to go lower than that!  (I actually know one world class acoustic guitar player who wears earplugs anytime he leaves his house!)


Gabriel

[supro66]

PRR is right about the drummers

I played TUBA in the high school band
Tubas sit with the drummers next to the BASS drummer we keep the beat

my OMMP-PAA had to match the BASS
we march in front of the drummers
Us tuba players can also get loud

Tuba players can not take their tubas in a BAR and sit them by a wall  

[billcreller]

Since I'm an old goat, I could never understand why rock-type music had to be so dam loud.  Some of the young guys around here in the 70s played loud as hell, but that was mostly 'cause they couldn't play "good" 

[Ritchie200]

Hey Bill,
Yeah, these days it kind of makes me wonder...

However, any time spent in any little single engine (especially a Cub!), will make you appreciate a nice set of David Clarks!

Jim

[GuitarPilot65]

You a pilot, Ritchie?  I learned as a hobby and am not current at the moment.  I'm partial to Piper's PA-28 air frame, preferring the tapered to the "Hershey Bar" wing.  Great, albeit expensive, times!

I've always preferred foam plugs because they seal to the shape of one's ear canal.  The silicone ones don't "breathe," and I would inadvertently pop my eardrum a bit when inserting.  Oddly, my left ear canal seems to be wider than my right, so foam is perfect for me.  I bring a pair to every RUSH concert.

[Ritchie200]

Blondie,
Yep, also not current.  I've flown a lot of stuff, Porsche Mooney being my fav - oh so smooth!  Got the most time in an Archer III, a fantastic flying low wing.  My wife thought the "investment" in my flight time was not worth it...  Could not really argue that when the kids came along.  Billcreller is a flyer and also an A&P.  I always wanted to build something.  A BD-5 or a Quickie/Dragonfly were my favs, but a racy Lancair would be really cool if $ were no object!  I will probably never get around to it.  I'm getting too old now.  Plus, the only thing in my budget would be a Quicksilver MX or something similar!

Jim

[GuitarPilot65]

Hey, Jim.
Thankfully, my wife has always fully supported my aviation pursuits, coming from a family of aviators herself.  We even went so far as seriously considering purchasing a "weekend Warrior" (literally, a Piper Warrior PA28-160).  Admittedly, I had honed-in on the Beech Musketeer toward the end of that pipe dream.  Just couldn't justify the extra expese of ownership verses the wet rental rate (at the time).  I commented to my wife yesterday that when I stopped flying in the late 1990s, 100LL avgas was around $3.50/ gal, and that it's likely near $6-$8/ gal now.  Hence my shift in focus toward the guitar amp stuff.  Much less expensive and more "lasting."
Best wishes on realizing your home-built dream one day.  One of the many fly-in developments here in the FL panhandle would certainly facilitate that! 

[Ritchie200]

I may have been too harsh on my wife!, she did support me wholeheartedly!  It was a mutual decision - just a hard one on my part!  Geez, i don't even have an idea what wet rates are anymore.  Last i looked (in the 90s), it was pretty steep for even trainer rates, much less something that moves.

I used to enjoy the seasons, but as I get older FL is looking better and better.  Whereabouts are you in the panhandle?  We visit the Mouse quite regularly, my escape into fantasy for a week where they at least act like they are happy to have you there.  Used to go to Destin before that.  I could live there!  House, hanger, music room - what more could you ask for!!!!

Jim

[GuitarPilot65]

Yes, definitely a mutual decision at this end as well.  Wet rates were averaging $100/ hr for the 150 to 160 hp class last I inquired.
We live near Destin.  Rented a Cessna 150 from DST for a $100 "pit-stop" in PNS many years ago (my wife's a vegetarian, so no $100 hamburger flights in my log book  ).
J33 is a grass strip near Chumuckla (Sant Rosa Co.); there's also a fly-in development in Baker (Okaloosa Co.), and Crystal Lake (in Washington Co., I believe).  There are also some in the peninsula of the state, but they're inland and cost $$ I'm sure.  We live closer to the shore and like being near the water.

Oops, I guess we've hijacked this thread!  I'll be certain to make sure the family has their foam earplugs in when I fire-up my Vibroverb RI after it arrives this week! 

[billcreller]

Headsets are one of the best things that came along for pilots.  There are a few airplanes that have the optional quiet package, but most are loud.
  I sold my half of the airplane to my partner, and tells me to fly it as much as I wish if I do the maintenance and inspections, and he buys the gas!  My medical ran out last fall, and I haven't renewed it since health problems showed up this winter. I still maintain a few airplanes, like around 15 a year.