First build Recommendations, Please.

[sjturbo]

New to the forum. I have built (not designed) a number of pedals and built one of my guitar's and also have experience building analog and digital test equipment from schematics. I am now interested in building my first amp. I got excited when I heard the clips from the Geezers' Bluesmeister non-HRM and I was in awe! I even picked up one of Doug's boards. Tubenit brought me down to earth indicating it might be a better idea to make my first project a bit less complex. So I have been listening to clips on ytube and the 5e3 deluxe has caught my ear. My questions are many but I have seen several "kit" projects and wondered if one of those would be good? Or with the amount of information on the web if it would be cheaper to "second source" the parts from a BOM and build it that way. I fear that building a kit might not be challanging enough but I could be wrong. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated regarding kit building or building from scratch. Suggestions of vendors and books on wiring would be appreciated also. Thanks!

[navdave]

Go with your heart my first build was a 100 watt Soldano SLO clone.
As far as parts go try to get them all from one source saves on shipping. 

[nateflanigan]

I came into this with a similar level of experience.  I built an AB763 first, it was really challenging, the first attempt was a total piece of crap.  The second try worked great.  Now I'm trouble shooting a TOS, it was a challenging build as well.  I'm ready to do something simple next my brain is fried.  My take on it is, you can probably build whatever you want.  You might have some problems, you'll learn a lot, you'll laugh you'll cry etc... But that being said it might be more FUN to start with something simpler, even if it's not your dream amp having a 5e3 on hand never hurt anybody.  As far as kits go, I don't think there's a ton of money to be saved sourcing the parts your self.  Unless you pick up a cheap amp and re-use the carcass... but this can have a square peg in a round hole quality to it.  Good luck and welcome to the best forum on the web.

[P Batty]

I'd start with a good idea of a finished amp, in a finished cabinet, with a good speaker, and what you would be using it for.  If you just build a chassis, it is easy to get it "sort of finished" and then it just sits on your workbench.  If you buy a complete kit you have an additional incentive to get it completed so you can start using it in the real world.  That said, a simpler blackface fender clone (non-reverb) would be my first choice- there is more room in the chassis. A 5E3 clone is somewhat tighter inside, but if you've already built pedal and test gear it might be a non-issue.  If you are a woodworker, then you might save a little money by making your own cabinet, but you won't save any time.  I've built both an AB763 DR and a 5E3 (from parts, not a kit), but have bought the cabinets from Weber.   If you want an amp you'll use a lot, build a Champ! Weber has a 5C1 kit for $415.

[supro66]

I'd start with a good idea of a finished amp, in a finished cabinet, with a good speaker, and what you would be using it for.  If you just build a chassis, it is easy to get it "sort of finished" and then it just sits on your workbench. 

He is right

How did you know my Supro 6420 was still sitting on my bench since 2008



I retire Monday Feb 28 

I got the speaker, tolex, plywood and the shop 



I now have the time

[tubenit]

Tubenit brought me down to earth indicating it might be a better idea to make my first project a bit less complex.

Whoa!  Hey man, I think you should build what you want.

You just have to realize the more complicated the build, the more challenges that you will have.  If you're patient and have some electronics knowledge (which I have little to none of) & you are willing to learn from others on the forum ................ build whatever you want.

Depending on the person and their ability to be patient and persevere ........ I think a Tweed BluezMeister is doable as a first build.  You will need to presume that you will have to trouble shoot the build and tweak it to your tastes.

A simpler build like the 5E3 Deluxe has fewer things to trouble shoot and/or tweak.

With respect, Tubenit

[P Batty]

How did you know my Supro 6420 was still sitting on my bench since 2008

I've got FOUR unfinished amps in my workshop.  The only ones which are finished are the ones I bought the cabinets for before I bought the electronics!

[mresistor]

Tubenit is right on, build what you feel that you want. I started with a Deluxe Reverb clone, and it wasn't too difficult, although I have an electronics background. The 5E3 is a great amp and there's a ton of info out there on it. Would be simple to build IMHO. I do like Champs though and a Vibro Champ wouldn't be a bad place to start. It's a low power single ended amp though (you may want more power), but super easy to build. How bout a 5F2A? maybe put it in a Hammond chassis.
I separate sourced all the parts to my DR's but this method can add up to more moolah than some of the kits. If I were to get a Weber kit I think I'd delete some of the parts and go with a little higher quality. Such as the pots caps and transformers. They do offer MM and Heyboer options. I hear their cabinets are pretty good. I've bought and built cabinets and they are not that hard to build IMO. Depends on how involved you want to be in your amp building. I do like the Marshall style amps too in that the tubes are above the circuitry. An 18 watt or 18w lite would be a nice amp to build.
Doug Hoffman has some great plans for amps in his info and he sells great parts at reasonable prices. Take a look at his Stout plans.
Some here have built a single channel Deluxe Reverb and it can be done with or without tremolo or reverb. And the Hoffman layout with the Bias Vary trem is great.
For kits you could look at Mojo, Marsh Amps also sells mojo parts and kits, David Allen has some great kits. There's Ceriaton (in Singapore though) and the 18 Watt site has ideas. Also look Trinity Amps, they have a complete chassis 5E3 Deluxe Kit as well that looks enticing. 
You could also look around here at all the different amp derivatives forumites have done. Many are pretty cool.

[sjturbo]

Thanks for all of the reply's so far! Going with the heart is good but I think it is good to listen to the experience of other builders initially also. I am much better at woodworking than electronics so I'm not to worried about the cabinet. I actually plan to build the amp as a head since I have a couple of speaker cabinets I can test with. The Wishing Well is a nice idea for a cabinet but a bit large, LOL. (nice work!). I think I can handle the schematic portion of the project. My challange will be more for the wiring protocol and knowing the layout for the chassis holes. That was the main idea for the kit (pre punched chassis). Funds are limited so actually building my "dream amp", (Bluesmeister) instead of the 5e3 would make some sense. Regarding the layout and wiring protocol can someone suggest reading material? And is there a finalized BOM, Schematic, and chassis layout for the Bluesmeister? And with all due respect, I value everyone's inputs and often appreciate finding earth ground with the inputs of all.

[overtone]

This will be a little long, apologies in advance, but I hope to address all your questions:

1. I think that you are on the right tracks with the head + cab idea + the pre-punched chassis.

2. Please consider the 5E3 one more time before you commit to the Bluesmeister. The 5E3 has the advantage of being incredibly well documented and discussed, plus being a great classic amp. I have just built a Silvertone circuit that is very close to it and love it to bits.

3. However, kits: watch out, some are just the parts, no manual to speak of, often no back-up either.

4. 18 months ago I was in your position, but without the electrical experience. My reason to build an amp was to find out how they work, so that I could service the old ones that I have already. I just could not find a decent tech out here. My reasoning was that for the cost of a kit I could get a pretty good grounding. It ended up to be a champ kit. With that grounding, I tried to build my dream amp from scratch in a pre-punched chassis and just a circuit diagram. Let's call it the Fartmeister. After six months fiddling I tore the thing down because I could not find out why it did not perform. But, while trying to get it to work I learnt a bunch.
 
5. I am a little concerned by you jumping straight in because my Fartmeister was about the same level of complexity as the Bluesmeister.

6. Tubenit and Geezer make a hell of a lot of exciting amps and I have real trouble keeping up with just reading about them! The documentation is prolific, but it assumes a certain level of knowledge of tube amps that you may not yet have. Now after 18 months, 1 kit, 3 scratch builds and 5 tube-amp repairs I am really itching to tackle a Geezer / Tubenit amp and I can really understand your entusiasm. With enough research on your part you may manage it.

7. This will seem completely wacko, but it's me: Try to get both the schematic and layout, cross check it all yourself before ordering the parts. Get colored pens and trace over the layout and schematic in the colors of your choice. I do that about 5 times. Think about why it was done that way. Again, about 5 times. Think about what you want. Hopefully less than 5 times! Then I order the parts when I can trace the whole circuit in my minds eye before going to sleep.

8. Tino Zottola has two "books" that possibly fit your level of expertise, but he does not have the Bluesmeister circuit in there! Plus, you would have to cut the metal holes yourself... One book is on theory, the other walks through several builds. You would need both books, otherwise you will be "painting by numbers" and not get much level of understanding. The builds are real nice old Fender circuits but again assume that you can read schematics and that you are comfortable working with high voltage. The layouts are all drawn in several stages of wiring which may help address your wiring questions.

9. Wiring: in a nutshell, keep the signal wires short and away from the high voltage / current wires and get the grounding right. Research all that.

10. If the budget is real tight I have to warn you that doing this kind of thing can get addictive.

my fingers feel numb... I have to get back to the cave, smell some solder, drill some holes...

[Ritchie200]

Tubenit brought me down to earth indicating it might be a better idea to make my first project a bit less complex.

Whoa!  Hey man, I think you should build what you want.

You just have to realize the more complicated the build, the more challenges that you will have.  If you're patient and have some electronics knowledge (which I have little to none of) & you are willing to learn from others on the forum ................ build whatever you want.

Depending on the person and their ability to be patient and persevere ........ I think a Tweed BluezMeister is doable as a first build.  You will need to presume that you will have to trouble shoot the build and tweak it to your tastes.

A simpler build like the 5E3 Deluxe has fewer things to trouble shoot and/or tweak.

With respect, Tubenit

Who EVER listens to Tubenit's advice?!?!  It's not like he gives advice for a living!  

In all seriousness, as Tubenit said, if you take you time and ask questions, you can have success with whatever you decide to build.  There are lots of folks here that will readily share their experience, tips, and tricks on whatever build you pick.

Supro!!  TWO days and counting!  You da man!  Congrats, and I hope you get to do everything you have been putting off!

Jim

[RicharD]

>There are lots of folks here that will readily share their experience,

You got that right.  This is by far the most polite and helpful forum I've ever seen.   Nobody ever makes fun of other people's work.  Everybody who does this starts somewhere.  I wish I could find pictures of my first build.  Sort of amazing the thang even worked (using the term work loosely). 

I've never built a "kit amp".  The last kit I built was a PAIA synth and that was a long time ago.  My best advice is the 6 P's..... Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.  Come up with a plan and share your ideas.  Don't get in a big rush and ask lots of questions.  Pictures are ALWAYS a big help. 

[TIMBO]

Everyone has to start somewhere,I'm in construction and have no electrical background at all and still not able to understand how it all works,but i do know a lot more than when i started.

These are some of my tips.
Read as many of the current and past post as you can (i've found info in other post that i wasn't even looking for)
If you read something that you don't understand,ask a question.
No question is a dumb question
Learn how to draw your schems and layouts.
Photos are good.
Internet is the useful.
The photo gallery is great for ideas and inspiration.
Lots of planning.
And most of all HAVE FUN.

My first real build was from scratch and had all the bells and whistles(not a known amp).It worked fine but i was not happy with the end result (lots of parts for another build another day)
Build what you want and the sound you like( a known type of amp, kit or scratch) that way if you do have problems it is far easier to fix than an unknown amp.
Simple or complicated you learn as much from either.


Hope this helps. Thanks

[firemedic]

My vote goes to a small single ended design. It's a lot simpler, plenty loud & the tone is usually killer.

[Fresh_Start]

I think starting with a Tweed Princeton (5F2-A), Blackface VibroChamp, Tweed Deluxe (5E3), or one of the single-ended AX84 design makes the most sense.  No matter who you are, you can use one of those amps.  

Proofing and troubleshooting a tube amp has a difficult learning curve IMHO.  There's no substitute for a simple, proven design with a "known good" layout.  Remember the first rule of AX84:

Don't bozo the layout!

How do I know this?  Because I learned the hard way... the way I usually do.

7. This will seem completely wacko, but it's me: Try to get both the schematic and layout, cross check it all yourself before ordering the parts. Get colored pens and trace over the layout and schematic in the colors of your choice. I do that about 5 times. Think about why it was done that way. Again, about 5 times. Think about what you want. Hopefully less than 5 times! Then I order the parts when I can trace the whole circuit in my minds eye before going to sleep.

Just thought this advice was worth repeating.

A good kit is a great idea for a complete beginner, but it sounds like you have enough experience to put together a bill of materials yourself.  Mission Amps and Trinity Amps both make really nice 5E3 kits with good support, but I don't think either of them sell head kits.  If all you need is a chassis and circuit board, you can get a pre-punched Mojo chassis from Marsh Amplification (cheaper than direct from Mojo - don't know why) and a circuit board from one of the board makers here or at Turretboards.com.  (Doberman sells kits for the basic AX84 designs.)  You can buy just about everything else you need here from Doug Hoffman.  Making your own board isn't a big deal, but you need a perfect template...

The other reason to start with a simple circuit is that you can get a better feel for the results of tweaking certain component values.  A 5F2-A is dead simple, but you can play with cathode bypass caps, negative feedback, plate resistors, and coupling caps to your heart's content and hear the impact of the change(s).

Cheers,

Chip

[3choplex]

My first build was a trainwreck express.  It took me more than a year to get the express dialed in, including changing parts, etc. I'd recommend starting somewhere simpler, e.g., champ or 5E3.

[sjturbo]

Whoa! I might loose patience in a year, kudo's for sticking with it. Truth be told although a 5e3 sounds great, I'm really wanting to build something with the dumble' esque sound. Smooth overdrive and good bloom! That is what I heard in the sound clips of the Geezer's Bluezmeister. If anyone has any suggestions on an amp that is in that vein but maybe a better starting point please chime in.