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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: PT mounting alternative - different idea?  (Read 4593 times)

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Offline bluesbear

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PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« on: May 24, 2011, 11:27:29 pm »
The single part of amp building I absolutely hate is cutting that square hole with the rounded corners for the PT. I just had an idea that I believe might work. First, drill the holes for the mounting bolts, then drill a hole for the wires and install a grommet. Put threaded hex spacers on the mounting bolts (a little Loctite would help), so they almost touch the chassis. Then, just run 4 machine screws with lock washers through the holes and snug the spacers tight against the chassis. Ideally, the grommet would be just slightly compressed.
Can anyone think of a reason this wouldn't work?
Thanks,
Dave
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 10:15:01 pm by bluesbear »

Offline Jack_Hester

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Re: PT mounting alternative - any cons?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2011, 04:10:48 am »
I tried it recently, on an experiment with different PT's, and I thought it looked good.  Wound up using a surface mounted PT, but would not hesitate to top-mount a flush-mount transformer, again. 

Jack
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Offline tubeswell

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Re: PT mounting alternative - any cons?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 05:27:21 am »
The z-mount can be handy for tweed -type chassis where you might not have the space between the chassis and baffle.

The x-mount is good because it leaves more space inside the chassis for other stuff.

Depends what you want.
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Offline LooseChange

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Re: PT mounting alternative - any cons?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 05:42:22 am »
Can't think of any reasons why that won't work. If you can find them go with the standup (X-Mount). Weber Speakers sell bells with tabs to convert laydown to standup.
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Offline bluesbear

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Re: PT mounting alternative - any cons?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 12:34:10 pm »
Another brainstorm! How about just replacing the PT screws with stainless steel screws 1" longer, with keps nuts on both sides of the chassis? That would be easiest and under $10 would do 5 PTs. The plan would be to tighten down the PT till the grommet is slightly compressed and the PT is even, then tighten the keps nuts on the other side of the chassis. How much strength would be sacrificed?
Thanks,
Dave

Offline bluesbear

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PT mounting alternative - alternative idea?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 10:13:53 pm »
anyone?

Offline tubeswell

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 12:47:59 am »
Might work if the bolts were good quality high-tension bolts (or something like that - if you are meaning what I think you mean?)
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Offline sluckey

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 06:31:59 am »
That will work fine on a piece of stationary equipment, but it makes me nervous thinking about it on a guitar amp. I'd just mount it correctly, providing maximum strength.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline bluesbear

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 07:27:40 am »
I guess you're right. That's what I was worried about... and why I ran it by everyone first. I'll start a new thread on CORRECT mounting. Maybe someone knows a better way of actually cutting the square hole.
Thanks,
Dave

Offline sluckey

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 08:02:52 am »
How are you cutting the hole? I just use a jigsaw.

I put 2" wide masking tape on the top of the chassis and draw the layout lines on that. Then I dril 1/2" holes in all corners. Next drill a larger hole in the waste area for starting the jigsaw cut. Then just cut it out. Touch up with files. It takes longer to draw it than it does to actually cut it.

If you want to do lots of aluminum chassis using the same transformer, take a look here...
http://www.silvatone.bravepages.com/18%20Watt%20Lite%20II/Build.htm

Note. Building a template just to do one cutout doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 08:08:53 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline RicharD

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 09:32:04 am »
The single part of amp building I absolutely hate is cutting that square hole with the rounded corners for the PT. I just had an idea that I believe might work. First, drill the holes for the mounting bolts, then drill a hole for the wires and install a grommet. Put threaded hex spacers on the mounting bolts (a little Loctite would help), so they almost touch the chassis. Then, just run 4 machine screws with lock washers through the holes and snug the spacers tight against the chassis. Ideally, the grommet would be just slightly compressed.
Can anyone think of a reason this wouldn't work?
Thanks,
Dave

I've seen this done before and I don't have a problem with it as long as the owner is careful with the amp.  I would not consider it bullet-proof.  Having seen musicians throw tantrums after a slightly off gig, I wouldn't sell an amp built like that.  I would make the wire hole as large as possible and grommet it.  A while back I had an come through and the PT was mounted with 1 screw and 2 bits of coat hanger..... ok it was bailing wire, same diff.  The wires were pretty beat up.

Offline Bub

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2011, 10:57:51 am »
Check out a coupling nut. It's a really long hex nut and might be the proper height.

Rob

Offline bluesbear

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2011, 08:53:58 pm »
Actually, the idea is to sell. I talked to a guy at a metal shop today. I think my problem was using the wrong blade on my jigsaw. He suggested 24 tpi bimetal blades. I'm getting some tomorrow. He actually thought a nibbler is the best idea. He suggested a Bessey brand. They're hard to find but Sears on-line store has the Bessey D24-SB Super Nibbler for $26.99. Not too bad.Maybe I won't hate it so bad if I don't have to stop every 1/4" and wire brush the aluminum off the blade!
Thanks to all. My idea didn't pan out but thinking about it got me to the real answer.
Dave

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 09:09:40 pm »
i suspect that it would. i have a QSC amp (actually, a stack of them) that use long all-thread hex nuts to mount about 20 pounds of 1200W amplifier transformer to the chassis. this is pro gear and they seems to stay together well (until they catch fire). one caveat is that the chassis are STEEL and not aluminum. the mounting screws may have a tendancy to tear through aluminum, however, you could use fender washers to alleviate that problem, if you were using aluminum chassis.

--DL

i'll try to get a pic uploaded in the next day or so.

Offline PRR

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Re: PT mounting alternative - different idea?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 11:39:30 pm »
> How much strength would be sacrificed?

At some time in life, about half of road-gear will get a 100-Gee shock.

Murphy's Law ensures this will be in the worst possible direction. (In this case, not pure tension or compression, but bending.)

Assume 4 pound PT. Assume (foolishly) each of four bolts takes =equal= strain. 1 pound per bolt. Times 100 Gees, is 100 pounds.

Some basic beam-strength formulas on a 1/8" -square- beam 1" long give:

 Required strength:     38,400

A round beam is much less strong, will need much more strength.

Good (not hi-strength) bolt-steel is 50,000+ yield strength. Good engineering allows 3:1 maybe 2:1 safety margin from yield. Steel buildings are/were often designed to 16,000psi stress at maximum load.

Including round-beam, and the fact that threads deduct a LOT of useful metal, plus add stress concentrations, I'd say there's a good chance an amp will come back "busted". If the bolts fail completely, there is a small cannonball ripping out other parts; and as I see it a serious electric-safety issue with sliced power wires.

KEP-nuts both sides of the chassis don't really reduce the stain. A little because shorter unsupported length.... but sheet metal chassis will bend so there isn't the kind of solid stiffness needed for a calculable connection.

Conventional design works. What does it take to rip a PT out when bolted solid, no leverage? In tension or sheer we have (1 lb at 100G) 100 pounds per bolt. 1/8" round bar is 0.01 square inches, times a safe 16,000 psi spec is 200 pounds needed to nominally break (and generally more like 600 pounds to permanent stretch, twice that to break). Even deducting for threads, it is safe. (It is better to use unthreaded shanks through the sheer plane; but in this size and cost category it is cheaper to over-size than to fancy-shape.)

Your plan "may break" at 100 Gee impact. Conventional plan "will not" break at 200 Gee impact, "may break" more like 600 Gee. While we don't see a lot of solid-mounted PTs break loose, I'm not sure I'd go six times weaker unless I _knew_ it would NEVER meet such shocks.

Sluckey gets stuff padded to survive the 50 Gee expected in UPS, if it arrives bent he sends it back, else he bolts it to a rack bolted to concrete. Domestic Hi-Fi may be similar. I'm a little surprised DL's QSCs can use stand-offs in a road-rack amp, altho standoffs have better (less) leverage than bare bolts. Coathanger can take 99% of road-gear shocks (most are 5G-10G, 100G is rare), why Butter's amp was not busted (yet).

A Z-bracket 3" wide 1" tall in 1/16" needs 12,000psi material. Since you can't get steel cheaper than 48Kip yield 16Kips safe design load, this is safe.

--------------

> suggested 24 tpi bimetal blades

A saw should have at least TWO teeth in the cut at all times. If there's only one, the next tooth SLAMs the edge.

So 24tpi is good for 1/12" stuff.

Chassis steel may be thinner.

If you can find 32tpi, that may be more important than magic-metal teeth.

When you must violate the 2-tooth rule, cut gently.

It may help a lot to clamp oak to the back. Damps the tooth-impacts and also guides a dozen teeth so the one tooth in metal does not get too far ahead of the next tooth.

Eastlake Auto sells tools for cutting (and patching) cars. There's a 3-tooth sheer like 1/2" scissors with a power-drill motor. Zip a strip all around rotten tin so you can replace with new metal. Goes fairly straight (or mild curves).

The Bessey is the hand-powered version; my hand hurts looking at it. Probably great for A/C ductwork. Let us know how you like a PT hole in chassis steel.

Classic vertical nibblers are hard work and wander. Power nibblers wander faster; you can cut amazing shapes quickly. How "amazing shape" do you want your PT hole?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 11:44:40 pm by PRR »

 


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