TOS vs TBM vs CSB

[tubenit]

I've built at least two dozen different amps when you consider all the variations of some models. So far, I've never built an exact clone of anything. I've sort of quasi cloned a couple of Geezer's designs but added my own tweaks to it.

The "best" three amps I've built are the Tweed Overdrive Special, the Tweed BluezMeister and the Carolina SongBird. Geezer in particular has had a significant influence and inspiration on these designs. Many of you also contributed and/or helped me.  THANKS!  Geezer's HoSo56 would probably be fourth.  And I was always very impressed with how well it sat in the mix with the band.   I still like the Carolina Blues Special alot also but it's not nearly as versatile & is more a traditional blues one trick pony tone.  

I like a clear tone that has good sustain, nice harmonics and is very touch sensitive. If it's too bright, too chimey, sort of muddy or muffled on overdrive ........... I don't care for it. I don't like a gritty or distorted tone either. I personally make a distinction between overdrive and distortion. Distortion sounds "distorted" where an overdrive sound is more like a pushed tone that sustains & can still be very clear.

So this is my comparison of the amps I have built or personally played up against that "ideal tone" that I hear in my head. When I think of ideal tones ..........   I like Larry Carlton, Johnny A, Jeff Golub, Eric Johnson, and Joe Bonamassa. I also like Chet Atkins real well & some of ZZ Top's stuff tone wise. Those would come closest to that "ideal tone"

So keeping in mine that this is very subjective and my evaluation of my own amps and ones that I've played.  I thought I'd share my reviews of these amps in case someone is interested in building one.

When you look at the topology of each of these amps & how I've scored each tone category, it may give you some ideas on how to design and build your own amp.

The evaluation categories are:  blooming, clarity of tone, overdrive, smoothness, clean vs. od contrast, clean channel, harmonics, touch sensitivity, tone balance and sustain.

With respect, Tubenit

[Fresh_Start]

 

Chip

[Ritchie200]

When I think of ideal tones ..........   I like Larry Carlton, Johnny A, Jeff Golub, Eric Johnson, and Joe Bonamassa. I also like Chet Atkins real well & some of ZZ Top's stuff tone wise. Those would come closest to that "ideal tone"

Aaaaannnnnnddddddd?  I'll give you a hint.....fire, UFO's, mayhem....

Jim

[tubenit]

If it was from the 80's .............. I probably don't have a clue.

This?

Boston- More than A Feeling

With respect, Tubenit

[shortfuse]

I think the TOS is the next one I want to try and build.  Where is the final design?  That TOS thread is like 4 pages long.  I think this questuion was answered in the "Various amp questions" Thread to Timbo.
I dont think I ever saw the Carolina SongBird.  May have been before my time as I joined here last July about the time the TOS came out I think.

[stingray_65]

You guys know I'm not a musician, but I have to tell you Jeff, That TOS is an awesome amp! It is by far the most versatile amp I've ever built hands down.

I had let a few strummers around her play it and got HUGE props, But when my Brother in law got hold of it.... WOW!!!!!

I built mine with a fixed bias (next will be switchable fixed/cathode),It would easily rise above any un-miked drummer and with is Tele it had a TON of stage presence.

That amp has all those qualities you mentioned blooming sustain, very touch sensitive ( I saw a lot of guys turn the gains high and the vol pot on the guitar down and toy with that), smooth OD to crunchy depending on the OD gain setting,and I think because I built mine fixed bias the clean channel sounded uber clean.

What impressed me most was the OD channel. It has so many different voicings depending on how much gain you had in the first gain stage and the OD gain stage AND a twist of the vol pot on the guitar would give a whole nother sound to it.

when I build this amp again (you can bet I will too!) I would make the second paralleled gain stage switchable instead of using a pot, it seemed that the pot knob was on 10 or 0.

I think too I might  add a raw switch. I will definitely never build it again in a chassis smaller than 24" and more than likely it will be a 2 x12 cab.

I think the TOS is the next one I want to try and build.  Where is the final design?  That TOS thread is like 4 pages long.  I think this questuion was answered in the "Various amp questions" Thread to Timbo.
I dont think I ever saw the Carolina SongBird.  May have been before my time as I joined here last July about the time the TOS came out I think.

If I followed the build right I believe the song bird evolved from Jeff's quest to build a SE mini TOS, So it's pretty recent.

Thanks Jeff for the TOS and all the encouragement and guidance to finish it!

Ray

[jojokeo]

Please define "blooming". I still can't wrap my head around the description as far as adjectives or descriptions go w/ what you all refer to.
Last time I asked this question I got a youtube link to Glen Kuykendall is all. His amp was set very loud (so loud that he had ear muffs or head phones on and I think it was set about "7 or 8" on the dial and he was playing right in front of it promoting speaker feedback or positive feedback if you will) and he used volume swells with his guitar pots. He got the normal high volume feedback type of sustain is all I could tell. This "blooming" effect was seemingly created more by high volume and feedback rather than the amp's characteristics or ability to sustain notes.

Is this what's being referred to as "blooming" when an amp is turned up - that it easily gives a feed back "swelling" kind of sustain that lasts more than several measures long or almost indefinitely? If so, then what's the difference between "great sustain helped by volume & feedback" and "bloom"??? 

[Ritchie200]

If it was from the 80's .............. I probably don't have a clue.

Sheesh!  Now you KNOW you have to go back further than that to find good music!  Although 1976 Boston will work.

How many times must I lead you to water...

Blackmore Exploding His Amps @ California Jam 1974

Yer pal,
Jim

[Ritchie200]

Hmm, I would call blooming a natural sustain provided by the amp.  A lot of amps will give you a good distortion or break up, but as the note dies, so does that distortion and tone.  I think what 'Nit is referring to is an amp that will give you that sweet spot through the life of the note being played - from beginning through decay.  He also mentioned that it is not a sharp distortion, but a sweet/smooth/even distortion that colors the note being played and not splat it out like a high gain amp would.  His is an amp that can do this at a very low volume - quite the feat!

'Nit, tell me if I am close?
Jim

[tubenit]

Hmm, I would call blooming a natural sustain provided by the amp.  A lot of amps will give you a good distortion or break up, but as the note dies, so does that distortion and tone.  I think what 'Nit is referring to is an amp that will give you that sweet spot through the life of the note being played - from beginning through decay.  He also mentioned that it is not a sharp distortion, but a sweet/smooth/even distortion that colors the note being played and not splat it out like a high gain amp would.  His is an amp that can do this at a very low volume - quite the feat!

I think that's a good description. I would add the harmonics or "sweet spot" tends to continue to "open up and swell" VS.
simply sustaining a note thru feedback which may not have haromincs or a sweet spot.

Sustain with feedback is not the same as blooming to my ears. Hendrix and Trower had great sustain but their amps did not have that sweet harmonic tone that opened up more as the note sustained longer.

Check out this video which I think does a decent job of showing the blooming feature having that harmonically rich sweet spot:

Dumble ODS-100 played with Flaxwood Liekki Custom.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

I think the TOS is the next one I want to try and build.  Where is the final design?

This is my current and favorite version of the  TOS:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11455.0

I need to redo this into a Hoffman style turret board and/or see if the original Hoffman style turret board will work (which I think it will).

With respect, Tubenit

[shortfuse]

Thank You Tubenit I am going to finish tweaking a few builds I have already completed (now that I have some time) and look forward to the TOS buid.

I think the TOS is the next one I want to try and build.  Where is the final design?  That TOS thread is like 4 pages long.  I think this questuion was answered in the "Various amp questions" Thread to Timbo.
I dont think I ever saw the Carolina SongBird.  May have been before my time as I joined here last July about the time the TOS came out I think.

If I followed the build right I believe the song bird evolved from Jeff's quest to build a SE mini TOS, So it's pretty recent.

Thanks Jeff for the TOS and all the encouragement and guidance to finish it!

Ray

Funny I was just looking at the Mini-TOS thread before this one as I had not read that one in a while and see it evolved into the Songbird.  I think I am up to snuff now.

[tubenit]

I don't think my TOS has blooming to the degree that some of the Dumble amps do.

But you can hear some of the notes bloom on this tune when I am sustaining the notes for some time.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9488477&q=hi&newref=1

With respect, Tubenit

[jojokeo]

I've seen that vid many times too. I'm not trying to be difficult but videos do not describe something spefically that we're talking about, rather only show by example and I guess I've got to try to see what's meant in it? He actually uses a lot of guitar volume control swells and various settings and channels on his amp which can disguise a blooming effect.
I'm looking specifically for descriptive words to define something like what you see by using a dictionary. I think Richie did a pretty decent job of describing the bloom thing and that's more on point to what I'm after. Blooming could mean any number of things, just like "touch sensitivty" and others. Until we're all on the same page w/ accurate definitions then these things are most subjective and one's persons understanding is not the same as another's.
Where I'm going with this is that tubenit uses a lot of descriptive words for his amps and that we could use an "ampilier dictionary" thread here to help to define things like this so that descriptive words aren't so arbitrary as we talk about what an amp does or sounds like. If we're after certain specific characteristics in an amp's sound, tone, or playability something like this could really help a lot and minimze confusion?!

[Geezer]

Please define "blooming".

I'll try to describe my idea of "bloom".

1st, it's NOT just feedback (like you get when you crank up the amp & stand in front of the speaker)....you can probably get that with any amp if you turn it up loud enough & stand close enough to the speaker.

To me, bloom is when a note is plucked (or a chord is stummed) & the amp not only reproduces the played note or chord, but also (somewhat slowly) begins to add "other" harmonics to the original notes, and many times actually increase in volume, or other times sustain into multi-harmonic feedback.

I will try to post some links to stuff over @ the Amp Garage forum that Scott Lerner has posted (aka "Dogears") that demonstrate what I'm trying to describe......

G

[stingray_65]

Hmm, I would call blooming a natural sustain provided by the amp.  A lot of amps will give you a good distortion or break up, but as the note dies, so does that distortion and tone.  I think what 'Nit is referring to is an amp that will give you that sweet spot through the life of the note being played - from beginning through decay.  He also mentioned that it is not a sharp distortion, but a sweet/smooth/even distortion that colors the note being played and not splat it out like a high gain amp would.  His is an amp that can do this at a very low volume - quite the feat!

'Nit, tell me if I am close?
Jim

Ritchie,
Thats pretty much what I heard, a long soft sustain with a "sweet spot" that didn't decay as fast as the note.

[tubenit]

To me, bloom is when a note is plucked (or a chord is stummed) & the amp not only reproduces the played note or chord, but also (somewhat slowly) begins to add "other" harmonics to the original notes, and many times actually increase in volume, or other times sustain into multi-harmonic feedback.

That is a great description.

I'll add playing ability seems to make a difference in the blooming showing up. My friend, Chip, (who is a much much better player than I'll ever be) gets some beautiful tone out my amps using my guitar that I can't ever seem to coax out of it.  Something about someone's guitar phrasing makes a difference.  I think everyone of Geezer's sound clips is great and wished I could play with that caliber tone wise.  Chip gets alot more of the blooming effect out of the same amp for some reason.

Jojokeo makes a great point in trying to create a common language to communicate. I think using words and then a video and soundclip to try and demonstrate what the words mean is going to be the best we can do when we're not in person with the amp itself.  I think we've got to link up an audio/video with the words.

I've always tried to describe my amps and post sound clips (when I can get them to turn out decent).  Since there is a "risk" that someone might actually try to build one, .......... I want them to know what they're getting into. Just because I like something, sure doesn't mean someone else would.  Hopefully a description and soundclip will inform whether to steer clear of building "that" amp or perhaps inform that it's a reasonable risk.

With respect, Tubenit

[Geezer]

OK, here's one of Scott's clips that have some bloom (to my ears, mainly in the 1st 30 seconds or so). It's all single note stuff, but you can imagine what it would sound like if you played some double-stops or chords & the same "bloom" effect took hold of the notes with harmonics "stacked" on harmonics, building in volume and "girth" as you held the notes with a bit of vibrato from your fretting hand....

http://scottlernermusic.com/sonar/SonarTestnoTT.mp3

and here's one that has a few bloomed chords & such in it.

http://www.scottlernermusic.com/2010/PhatMommaHATtweakB.mp3

And another that has some long "blooms", just for illustration (& because I really likes Scott's playing style & tone!) 

http://scottlernermusic.com/2010/ojcen320x.mp3

[jojokeo]

Thanks for the time to help me get this more clearly understood!

I can imagine this is especially helpful for those that English is not a first language or even the Aussie's and Englanger's where English is understood but our slang may be different from each others too?

Geezer - dogears' has got some very nice tone and playing skills for sure. It sounds to me that me must be playing a hollowbody or atleast a semi-hollow body guitar to get it to "bloom" or feedback so quickly on a note like that especially in the last clip? He's also got to have a pretty substancial amount of gain going to get that effect going so quickly on a sustained note like that. I like this affect when I'm playing & improvising and it takes a lot of playing skill and control to manage it so well as he does.

Next question that's important is: what factors contribute to the blooming effect?

Is it gain? volume? dexterity in strong fingering of notes cleanly with your fingertips? Vibrato w/ the fingers? Stong pick attack? Alnico speakers over ceramic types? No negative feedback more than ones with it? Cathode biased amps more than fixed biased ones? Biasing the preamp tubes towards saturation rather than cutoff or a combination of each? A high gain preamp combined w/ an ultra clean & tight power amp? Stiff filtration over loose spongy power rail - or the reverse? An amp free of the slightest parasitic oscillation? Is there a way to quantify all of things that contribute to this effect?

Finally, after determining all of the contributing factors - we could come up with an amp tailored to maximize this blooming characteristic or add a touch to one of our existing amps once it's figured out and understood better and which things contribute more to it than others.

tubenit or geezer - Is this one of the main characertistics that you guys are consciously trying to go after in maximizing as a goal to acheive in all of your designs? Or is it something that comes along w/ a particular build when "lucky" as an end result - meaning you may not be after it every time?

[Geezer]

Not much time to cover it all right now, but Scott plays Dumble type amps based on later generation serial #'s....specifically Robben Ford's #102 & another recently discovered amp #183.
They have stiff PA's, hi-plate resistor values (220k) & lots of other stuff going on.....go over to the Amp Garage forum & look under the "Dumble files" section to see layouts & schematics (you have to be a member to view the Dumble stuff).

I'll comment later on the rest......G

[tubenit]

Is it gain? volume? dexterity in strong fingering of notes cleanly with your fingertips? Vibrato w/ the fingers? Stong pick attack? Alnico speakers over ceramic types? No negative feedback more than ones with it? Cathode biased amps more than fixed biased ones? Biasing the preamp tubes towards saturation rather than cutoff or a combination of each? A high gain preamp combined w/ an ultra clean & tight power amp? Stiff filtration over loose spongy power rail - or the reverse? An amp free of the slightest parasitic oscillation? Is there a way to quantify all of things that contribute to this effect?

All great questions! My answer is that I don't really know everything involved in bringing it about. I will say I've read some pretty spirited debates on the AmpGarage forum regarding this very subject.

I'll offer my subjective thoughts. Some of it is definitely guitar playing ability and phrasing. Amp design is the other aspect. Multi-gain stages that are transparent and add & enhance harmonics thru each gain stage going thru a relatively clean power amp.  That is as much as I have figured out (which isn't much).  Yes, I like the blooming effect & seek that. It allows you to do things with a note that you normally can't play (at some level).

With respect, Tubenit

[zendragon63]

Tubenit, great post and great comparitive chart. The Carolina Songbird sounds excellent on the sound clips.

No intent here to hijack and I don't know if any of the following is helpful BUT....I have found that the 'blooming' aspect at the amp level is a result of relatively small voltage shift (sag) and resulting compression in the overdriven (preamp) stage. That is to say that as the string is plucked, the voltage on the plate of the overdriven stage (that is slightly warm biased) drops a little, the cathode draws a little more current and the load line shifts to the left and rotates clockwise, compresses just a little and the 'bloom' is the resulting volume increase as it returns to quiessence--all of this with the harmonic content and sustain you already have generated. The geetar player's technique helps and the overall volume certainly helps with feedback aspect but it is more the slight sag, the resultant shift and return that gets you into this realm. The choice in power supply sag (maybe just the time constant) at specific drops are a factor as well. Then the trick is to make the spectrum midrangy enough so it doesn't woof or sound brittle and the harmonic content generated--which is often easier said than done but that is whole other kettle of fish.

I read a series of thoughts on ampgarage that theorizes that the Dumble 'magic' as being a result of the 2nd and 4th preamp stages working in concert to maximize this phenomena. Phase correct so to speak. I, however, am not at that level of post graduate work, though the theory makes some sense. Your adventures in amp building may be completely different but it is just what I have noticed on several builds--and keep in mind that I am no Einstein so I might indeed be completely out of phase.

Keep those innovations coming! Regards

dennis