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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 67 Bassman head pin voltages  (Read 8718 times)

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Offline Craselaw

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67 Bassman head pin voltages
« on: August 18, 2011, 12:24:23 am »
I just tried to start up the ab165 Bassman head I have been working on and I have power, but no sound.  :cussing: :cussing: I went through and checked my resistors and caps, and all looks good. I was wondering if someone could look at the pin voltages I put into the cool program here and tell me if there is a clue? I have been working on this thing for months...

http://www.el34world.com/charts/valve/ValveData.php?e=view&f=11537

Meanwhile, I am going to go through it again and hopefully I'll find something. Thanks
Now I only need two more...

Offline Danskman

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 05:27:09 am »
on your 6l6, you should have around 450VDC, via a 470 / 1W resistor (screen grid). On pin 8, you should have 0V (ground). On pin 5 (grid) you should have around -45VDC (Bias voltage).
your preamp tubes voltage are not good; you should measure around 250/260V on plates, between 1.5 to 2V on cathodes. PI tube: around 100V on cathodes, 220/230V on plates.
I would deeply investigate the power rail, ground connections, heaters and wiring dress/solders.
Good luck and best regards,
Danskman

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 01:34:14 pm »
It's curious to me that you show big + volts on the plates of your 6L6 tubes and NO bias voltage on pin 5 of either tube. If the cathodes of those tubes are grounded, the plates of those tubes should be glowing bright screaming red hot and maybe even blowing the fuse. No way you would not notice that, to put it mildly.

Thus I am going to assume that the "-" you have on those 6L6 pin 5's is the negative bias required to keep those tubes from blowing up. (Or they'd be blown up)

The preamp tube voltages look fairly nominal. On the plates of your phase splitter, however, V3, you have big (~~400) volts which could only happen if that tube is not conducting anything. Thus I'd have to suspect something in the "+" shaped resistor network from the cathodes of that phase splitter tube to ground. That 12AT7 has no "ground" connection.




Offline rzenc

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 03:27:23 pm »
 
 That 12AT7 has no "ground" connection.

+1.
I had some strange PI volts and it turned out to be a cold solder joint exactly on the ground tie point for the tail resistor.

Best Regards

Rzenc

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 04:34:52 pm »
Eleventeen- You assume correctly! I didnt enter the voltages- long night I guess...I have -045v on both pin 5's, and according to Danksman's numbers, it  looks like normal voltages on the other pins for the power tubes.  The 12ax7's are another matter!

Danskman- Thanks for the values, sounds like I have a lot of work ahead of me unfortunately, but it is a relief to know the proper values I am shooting for...

I am initially suspicious of the ground wire under the board that starts from the 22k resistor in the "+" section and ends under the board at the top of the 1500 resistor/ 25/25 cap pair in V4, because pin 3 on V4 reads "0" and it should read 1.5-2v per Danksman. And I did a shitty job of making sure it was still connected underneath...Does that sound like it might cause these problems?



And thanks again, you have really helped. Hopefully I will be playing really really loud guitar in the next week or so... :m7 :m7
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:36:36 pm by Craselaw »
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 05:42:14 pm »
That could absolutely do it. With power off and HV VERY WELL bled (don't leave that step out!!) just buzz the the connection between the "cold" end of the 22K and ground. (that would be the west end on both the schematic and the layout, the side that DOESN'T go to the junction of the dual 1 Megs) If it's anything but almost zero, that's your dude. Don't kill yourself pulling it all out. Just run another short wire from the junction of the 22K and the .1 uf to the ground eyelet for those dual 25/25 caps those on top of the board and be done with it. THAT connection, with so many leads going to it, could be iffy...and cold-soldered. Make sure it's a nice looking solder joint when you're done.

On power up, the (common) cathodes (pins 3 & 8) of the phase inverter should be 100-110 volts.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:45:24 pm by eleventeen »

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 06:34:37 pm »
I get 0.3 - close enough to zero prob?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 06:42:23 pm by Craselaw »
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 06:56:08 pm »
T'would seem like it...that's most likely the resistance of your test leads. Are you measuring to real amp ground (like the brass strip under the controls) or just measuring to the blob of solder on the negatives of those caps?

You pulled the tube out of the socket and made sure there isn't some hairline crack in a pin? Tube in-tube out-tube in, to clean the contacts some? Maybe change 12AT7's? Any 12A_7 tube will work for a quick test.

With the amp powered on, what kind of volts do you see on the 12AT7 phase splitter cathodes? Should be right around 100 volts.

Does that damn tube light up?? It might act the way you're saying if the filament was dead! If the green heater wires successfully make the pass-through connection to the other tubes but somehow don't light that one up, that could do this too. Yeah, I know, bizarre. I see you show 7 volts on the cathodes. That tube isn't conducting spit!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 07:08:28 pm by eleventeen »

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 07:49:32 pm »
I measured from the brass piece and I tried the silver wire coming out of the bottom of the 1500 Resistors/25/25 caps.

I changed out the tube and got the same on pins 3/8 - 6-7 volts...

This is interesting. I turned out the lights and checked the tubes. V3 V4 V6 didnt glow. It looked like they might have had a tiny speck of light somewhere inside at the top, but almost imperceptible.

These are all new tubes (I have had them for a year or so, but not used)

The only thing I havent done to this amp is clean up/replace the tube sockets.....I will check the heater wires tonight

Thanks again, it feels good to have a reason to check things for a change!
Now I only need two more...

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 10:09:06 pm »
Well, at this point, a true e-detective would measure filament volts at the first through third preamp tubes and wiggle various wires. You may have a broken wire somewhere in the filament string. Or, perhaps a hairline crack across a tube socket pin where the through-connection is good but the filament power doesn't quite get to (in this case) the phase splitter. Or, a cold solder joint where the filament wires, again, make the through connection to each other but do not connect to the particular tube the connection is made on. Pretty danged weird!

Maybe I would get some clip leads and measure filament volts on the 12AX7 farthest from the power transformer by clipping them onto that last tube socket. Then go wiggling wires.

You could try to search out the problem or just reheat all the filament connections with a tiny bit of new solder added to each to reflux the connections.

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2011, 10:51:01 pm »
I think I am going to just reheat them all and re-solder. Maybe first I'll pull the sockets out and tighten those as well. After sleep. That stuff is 45 years old and has been through the ringer. Man, I really appreciate the advice. I'll let you know how it turns out...
Now I only need two more...

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 01:03:56 am »
My advice would be to replace sockets *last*. That's mostly just being lazy. Resolder them, twice if necessary, before replacing sockets. I like to  lightly re-solder in order to get new flux onto the joint, then use a plunger-type solder sucker and suck all the solder off the joint, then resolder with all new solder and a nice clean soldering tip that you keep that way all throughout the re-do. Sometimes you'll find a solder joint that just refuses to take up solder the way that it ought to...the wires & terminals just don't quite get wetted the way they should. (I find that happens a fair amount on the brass eyelets on Fender fiber boards. Old, oxidized brass can be rather unfriendly to solder at times. Sometimes you simply cannot get the concave look of a proper solder joint without mechanically scraping.) That can be an indication that the joint was cold or bad from the factory and the innards became oxidized and normal flux won't quite overcome it. IF YOU FIND A LOT OF THAT you might be well served to buy some external, high-potency liquid flux and treat all the solder joints with a droplet of extra flux before redoing them.

A lot depends upon the environment your amp spent most of its time in, coupled with how much tequila Consuela had the night before she soldered up your Bassman. If lots of the solder joints in your amp have that kind of grainy look to them, I would undertake the serious campaign to shotgun-resolder ALL of them and I'd be considering the external flux applicator right from the beginning. You'll use it again, don't worry.

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 12:44:03 am »
Soldered and resoldered all socket joints, flipped tubes around and around, same deal! This is getting frustrating.... :BangHead:



Now I only need two more...

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 01:56:56 am »
Still got only 7 VDC at that network node on the PI? (where there should be ~~100V?) 

First preamp tubes light up?

Good heater volts at the first preamp tube? Measure a few other places too, just for grins.

Maybe half the 6.3 winding is NG??? (Schematics I see show a CT on this winding)


Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 07:42:35 pm »
 OK- I found 2 points on the board that were open (one on that first group of three caps connecting to the deep switch, and another on the .047 cap connecting to the normal controls) They were those old blue caps and the wires were touching the solder but not attached.) Fixing them didnt seem to have much effect.

I re-measured all the voltages after I re-did the pin connections-
I still have 7v on the PI pins 3/8
Pin 6 on V6 (Bass channel) voltage kept climbing slowly- I stopped it after about 5 minutes and 470v.

Tubes are lighting up, but after the PI, they are only lit in one spot

The heater wires all check out at 2.7 and 3.2v -not sure if this is enough (5.9v total), but it is the same as before.

Im thinking I still have an open connection on the board somewhere, maybe underneath? How do I check the connections without ripping everything out? Or any other ideas?

Thanks again
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Offline J Rindt

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 08:36:20 pm »
What exactly do you mean by "Working On".?
What have you done to the amp.?
Best
I just tried to start up the ab165 Bassman head I have been working on and I have power, but no sound.   I have been working on this thing for months...

http://www.el34world.com/charts/valve/ValveData.php?e=view&f=11537

 

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2011, 08:44:48 pm »
This amp was one I used as a kid (think 1983) and it stopped working at some point, dont know why (or cant remember!). In the last year, as my first "project" I have replaced all caps and resistors, got new tubes, and it has never worked. I've gone over the board a couple of times, but can't seem to find the "bad" part. I am using the ab165 layout as a guide on what to replace, etc.

I am certainly no expert!
Now I only need two more...

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 04:31:08 pm »
Sounds to me like you need to get a copy of the schematic and "buzz out" each and every connection. Make sure power is off and any HV well drained. Use an ohmmeter to establish whether or not all connections are made. Best is to use a colored pencil (NOT a felt tipped something) on the schematic and a magic marker on all the solder joints on the parts board. Be conscious of grounds and grounding. If you have only the seven volts on that node we've been discussing....and you have climbing volts to the 400 range on a preamp tube, then that tube is also not conducting. My suspicion is that you've left one or more grounds out of the picture. If there are jumpers running under the board, you can see if they exist by seeing there is continuity between where the ends are supposed to go. You need to have a clip lead for at least one of your meter leads so it can be placed on a connection and left there.

At the end of this exercise, each and every wire on your schematic should be covered up with a red pencil line. Don't use felt-tip, in case you make an error. Be systematic.

Assume you are working on the 7025 at the center of your schematic.
http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/schem/bassman_ab165_schem.gif

You're going to have a dialog in your head like, OK, I am on the plate of this tube, pin 6. I am making sure that pin 6 is pin 6 and I haven't counted pins wrong. Yes, there is 7, 8, 9.

That plate connection goes to a 100K and a 470K and a .1 cap. Are those connections made?

The 100K is a plate load resistor, connected to the B+ rail. Find it. Zero ohms between pin 6 and one end of it? Red pencil from the plate to HALFWAY THRU the 100K.

The OTHER END of the 100K should connect to a 4.7K / 1 watt (prolly under the cap pan on top of the chassis) and a 27K / 1 watt (likewise, possibly under the cap pan) If all those connects are made, cover up the schematic lines with red pencil HALFWAY THRU whatever parts the far end of that 100K connect to. Go back to the 7025 plate, pin 6.

It also connects to a 470K and if that is there, red pencil it halfway thru the 470K.
It also connects to a .1 cap. Find that cap. Maybe mark it with your felt tip marker.

Everybody does this in a different sequence. But you have to have the layout taped to a sheet of cardboard and the schematic, likewise, and preferably on a clipboard.

From your description, you do not have a "broken amp"; you have an amp that in essence, just came off the assembly line at the factory. You do not necessarily know if mis-connections were made, you do not necessarily know if wrong-value parts were put in. There is literally nothing you can take for granted.

This is DIFFERENT than taking a working amp that stopped working.

Somehow, you must exorcise all the uncertainty out of your amp. Redlining the schematic is the general way it is done.

One by one, you need to start at a solder joint on the parts board, mark it in some way, and ascertain that whatever wire is connected to it goes to where it is supposed to go. This sounds like a project that was started and then put away for some time. We all have one or more of those. Memory is useless in these situations.

You need to go through the exercise of confirming that every wire and every component you see on the parts board goes where it is supposed to go and makes a valid connection thereto. Useful is an ohmmeter with a "beep" for continuity.

Offline Craselaw

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2011, 10:49:33 pm »
A massive undertaking, but I am ready to do it. I'll start in the morning and move very very slowly.
Thanks for the help! Sorry I wasnt clearer from the beginning....
Now I only need two more...

Offline eleventeen

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Re: 67 Bassman head pin voltages
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2011, 12:10:32 pm »
It's indeed a fairly large undertaking, but you'll find that it accelerates over time. Your mind will quickly grow to like certainty over uncertainty, if it's anything like mine.

You could break it down some, for example, by getting a layout diagram and confirming that the physical parts placement is identical to the one shown in the dwg. At that level, you're not checking any connections, you are just checking that the physicality of the parts placement is correct. In fact, I would start there. When you replaced "all the parts" did you replace numbers of them at a time, or, part-by-part...? You're on top of your resistor color code? If you replaced only one part at a time, parts placement errors are far less likely, but still possible. It's also possible that an under-board wire came out of an eyelet the prior time you heated up a solder joint. Thus a connection that was good might have become unmade, yet is invisible.

I am working on my 1965 Pro Reverb at the moment and I am reminded that the pale yellow cloth-covered wire Fender used to connect from the parts board to most tube-socket pins has a way of tricking your eyes when those wires cross. (Your amp could use different-era wire colors, or it could be the same if it's an early AA1165) If you disconnected multiple wires from the parts board all at once during your replacement-festival it would be trivially easy to get them mixed. Really, really easy. Insanely easy. Use a needlenose to grasp one end of various wires and be super-sure it goes where it supposed to. This has bonus of checking the soundness of your solder connections, which I am of course assuming are all good. Heh. Again, most techs tend to replace one part at a time, although when replacing the twin 100K plate resistors on Fenders that are arranged in a "V", you can do both of those at once. But if you pulled off half a dozen caps and resistors, or ALL the resistors, or "everything to the right of this eyelet", you gotta get back to perfect certainty. If you replaced every single wire and every single part you MUST go through this or something very close to it.

If this amp dropped onto my bench, I think I would proceed:

1: Check physical parts placement against parts layout diagram. At the end of that check the DIAGRAM has a red dot on both ends of every component and every physical component has a magic-marker dot on both of its ends. But be careful: In my last post I referred to that central 7025 in the schematic. The 3 individual parts that connect to that tube's pin 6: That pin 6 does not "earn" its fully-fledged red pencil marking until ALL those parts are checked. This is why you use pencil and go lightly, because you WILL have to erase things in your redlining. You also have to figure out how you are going to show that you have checked TWO of those connections but have not yet checked the third one. Some folks like to have a bare alligator clip, or, one end of one of those cheesy alligator-alligator jumpers to mark which end of a wire they are working on.

2: Check "intra-board" connections. Jumpers under the board, the chained B+ connections, all ground connections.

3: Tube pins to parts board. STRONGLY PREFER starting at the tube socket. Start at pin "1" and confirm that a connection is made to the right spot on the parts board. If you start at the parts board end, I promise you that everyone on this board has mis-read a tube pin number 4, 5, 8, 10, 15 times in a row. "Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3. Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3. Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3. Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3. Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3. Oh, OK, that goes to pin 3." CRAP! NO! It's going to pin 7!!

As it happens, pin 1's are all plates on the little tubes, as are all pin 6's. Maybe you take an excursion "sideways" and check to see that "ALL" your pin 1's go to one of the 100K resistors usually arranged in a "V" shape. Does it matter which of the 100K's each plate goes to? Better believe it. That would be a VERY EASY re-wiring mistake to make. VERY EASY, to take off two of them and flip them around. With that eye-fooling yellow wire? Oh yeah.

Likewise, all pins 3 & 8 are cathodes. Most of them go to resistor-capacitor bypass pairs.

Does everything that is supposed to connect to ground measure "zero ohms" (or very small ohms) with everything else that is supposed to go to ground?

Except for that central 7025, every 12A_7 pin 1 should measure 200K ohms to the same tube's pin 6. The plate load resistors.
Every cathode (pins 3 & 8) on every 12A_7 (except for the last PI) should measure 1000-2000 ohms to ground.

Take sorta frequent breaks and come back with fresh eyes, this is a job that takes lots of concentration, uninterrupted. If there are distractions going on, put it away and come back another time. It's a zen-like process.

The amp is like a tube of toothpaste, full of uncertainty. Your job: Squeeze it all out.

 


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