Yamaha Acoustic FG-160E High Action, Help Please!

[Platefire]

I've got a friends acoustic that he has been playing for 20 years that always has had high action. The beauty of the thing is it projects volume un-plugged like no other acoustic I ever heard before but I don't see how he plays it with the action so high. I decided I would try to help the thing if I could.

I looked at the body and it don't look like the bridge is pulling away from the body, so I think that's all right. It does have a little relief in the neck so I thought I would tighten the truss rod to make it straighter maybe to help the action. It's a 5/16" nut and I've got a stu mac 5/16" truss rod wrench and tightened it up several 1/4 turns over the last month giving it time between each adjustment but the neck relief don't seemed to be changing to get any straighter. As tight as it is, I'm afraid if I turn it anymore I'll strip the treads out.

Just looking at the guitar from the side it looks like maybe the neck is tilted up at a slight angle from the neck joint of the body to the nut end but there is no seperation or giving at the neck joint that I can see. If there was a tilt adjustment that might be the fix but that don't exist. Any suggestions on how to proceed? Platefire

[G._Hoffman]

Take a straight edge, and lay it across the frets, then slide it until it hits the bridge.  Ideally, it should just touch the top of the bridge, but I'm betting it is much lower than that.  If there is enough saddle left, you can sand down the bottom of the saddle until it is in spec, but my experience with those guitars suggest this won't be possible.

If there isn't enough saddle, the only fix is a neck reset,* which is never an amateurs job, and in my shop costs at least $350, which is 2-3x the value of the guitar.  And we wouldn't do it on that guitar anyway, because it is a laminated top, and when you try to remove the neck or bridge from a laminated top guitar, the top will usually delaminate from the steam used to remove the neck, which ruins the guitar. 

Which is to say, the right fix is to buy a new guitar.  Not what you want to hear, I know, but unless it has an unusually high sentimental value, it isn't worth trying to fix.  And even then, there isn't much you can do about it.


Gabriel


*Any guitar which is built to sound good will eventually need a neck reset.  It is possible to build them so they won't, but if you do that the guitar sounds a bit like a brick with strings.

[Platefire]

Thank You Gabriel, I kind of figured that but wasn't for sure. I feel pretty comfortable working on electric solid bodies but acoustics is a whole other ball game. I'll pass that info on to my friend. My guess is he'll keep on playing it like it is, Har!  Platefire

[jjasilli]

Ditto to Gabe.  I recently had a little Yamaha acoustic FG-75 or 110, which I refurbished, but then sold to a friend.  The action was a bit high. My research on-line indicated that those necks were set with epoxy, or something.  Anyway not hide glue.  So a neck reset is basically not feasible, especially for DIY.  The saddle was thick, so I sanded it down.  That worked-out fine.  However, that guitar liked extra-light strings, or silk & steel.  Otherwise the tension pulled the action high.

Nice guitar.  Probably shouldn't have sold it!

[P Batty]

I rescued a Korean D-28 copy (Almirez by UMC) by lowering the saddle  and going to a lighter set of strings. It's a wonderful guitar now, although I am about at the limit of any further adjustment.

[Platefire]

My guess the bridge is already been sanded which is metal and barley sticks up above the wood saddle.
He uses pretty heavy strings because he breaks them pretty regular, so he would probably break even more with lighter gauge strings but lighter gauge strings would relax the neck a bit maybe helping the action. It's amazing to me how much volume he gets out of that thing. I've never heard an un-plugged acoustic project like that one. Platefire

[G._Hoffman]

My guess the bridge is already been sanded which is metal and barley sticks up above the wood saddle.
He uses pretty heavy strings because he breaks them pretty regular, so he would probably break even more with lighter gauge strings but lighter gauge strings would relax the neck a bit maybe helping the action. It's amazing to me how much volume he gets out of that thing. I've never heard an un-plugged acoustic project like that one. Platefire

Higher action makes guitars louder.  By all reports, Freddie Green (Count Basie's guitar player) had action about 1/4" high at the twelfth fret (that would be 8/32" - most people feel the action is too high by the time you get up to 4/32")!!!!  But he played 40 years with Count Basie, and never once plugged in to an amp. 


Gabriel

[Platefire]

That's interesting about Freddie Green. I know that was the modivation behind building pickups and amps to compete with the loud horns during the big band era. He must of had a big box and a heavy chomp to compete un-amplified. I checked out some records from the library years ago to hear Charlie Christian stuff for the first time. The history of modern lead guitar is pretty interesting. I've got some recordings my grandpa made of the "Grand Old Opry" radio program back in the late 40's/early 50's that are pretty interesting. One has got some nice delay on it, which seems kind of early for that, but it's on there. Another song called "Used Car Blues" is funny funny.  Platefire  

[G._Hoffman]

That's interesting about Freddie Green. I know that was the modivation behind building pickups and amps to compete with the loud horns during the big band era. He must of had a big box and a heavy chomp to compete un-amplified. I checked out some records from the library years ago to hear Charlie Christian stuff for the first time. The history of modern lead guitar is pretty interesting. I've got some recordings my grandpa made of the "Grand Old Opry" radio program back in the late 40's/early 50's that are pretty interesting. One has got some nice delay on it, which seems kind of early for that, but it's on there. Another song called "Used Car Blues" is funny funny.  Platefire  

Yes, well, part of that is that Freddie Green was strictly a rhythm player.  The quote when he died was that, "in forty years with the Basie Band, he never missed a beat, and he never took a solo."  He did make a couple of albums as a small group leader, and he played solos and melodies, etc., on those, but that just wasn't his roll in the Basie band.  Oh, and yes, he tended to play some very big guitars - 17"-19" archtops.  And archtops that were made to be played acoustically, not like the ones most guys make these days that are only really intended to be used plugged in.

Somewhat off the point, Freddie Green is also the only man Billie Holiday ever loved.  Not bad for a guy who spent his whole career playing quarter notes!


Gabriel

[bigsbybender]

Higher action makes guitars louder. 

Gabriel

I guess that makes sense. I've played a few Martin guitars that belonged to Bluegrass players, and they are stiff and high action....but they can get some serious volume out of them. Yet somehow, those guys can still make some quick runs on those fingerboards.

j.

[G._Hoffman]

Higher action makes guitars louder. 

Gabriel

I guess that makes sense. I've played a few Martin guitars that belonged to Bluegrass players, and they are stiff and high action....but they can get some serious volume out of them. Yet somehow, those guys can still make some quick runs on those fingerboards.

j.

Well, and I should be more precise.  The higher action doesn't actually make the guitar much louder (a bit, but it's only part of the issue) so much as that, higher action allows you to play louder without buzzing or fretting out or anything along those lines.  You can play that loud on guitars with lower action, but you won't much like the sound.  Basically, it gives you a wider dynamic range.


Gabriel

[Platefire]

Gabriel

I did the straight edge test on this Yamaha and it lined up way down low on the bridge saddle below the bridge almost to the body. So I ran a copy of this post about what you said about the neck re-set, gave that to him and told him I've done all I could do to help it. Thanks for your attention on this. Platefire