Grounded Neutral

[J Rindt]

I am so sorry to ask a stupid question that has probably been asked many times before. I am happy to read a link that explains it. But.....
In the USA, in a residence, with 3 wire receptacles, there is a Ground, Neutral, and Hot.
Why is the neutral at ground potential.?
I assume it is actually the CT on a 240VAC secondary.?
Assuming 120VAC, would you have 120V between Neutral and Hot, if the neutral was not grounded.?
And if the neutral were not grounded, I guess you would have 120V from ground to neutral.?
Anyway.....what is achieved with the neutral grounded.
Thank You

[Platefire]

I'm not really sure what you are asking but the normal hookup for power cord is black goes to fuse, power switch to PT primary, white goes direct to the other power transformer primary and green goes to chassis ground. Platefire

[Tiny_Daddy]

Neutral goes to ground but has current flowing through it when your amp is on and therefore may measure a few volts with respect to safety ground. Green ground is safety ground, no current allowed under normal operation. Both connect together at the breaker panel.

[J Rindt]

Guess I made my question way too complicated.
This has absolutely nothing to do with guitar amps.
Why is Neutral grounded.?
What would happen if it was not.?
Thank You

[sluckey]

google is your friend...

"The Neutral is grounded so that any of the phase conductors that contact a ground will short the circuit and trip your over current protection. If the neutral wasn't grounded, it would be possible for a grounded surface to become energized without blowing the circuit. Also, grounding the neutral in a 3 phase system helps stabilize phase voltages. A non-grounded neutral is sometimes refered to as a "floating neutral" and has a few limited applications.

As a side note, the neutral should NEVER be connected to a ground except at the point at the service where the neutral is initially grounded. This can set up the ground as a path for current to travel back to the service. Any break in the ground path would then expose a voltage potential."

[J Rindt]

Sorry, just bare with me on this. Not sure what you mean by "phase conductors".
Just thinking single phase, USA, residential.
So what would/could happen, in a (3 wire power cord) Fender BF Bassman for example, if the Neutral was not grounded.?
Thanks

[sluckey]

Sorry, just bare with me on this. Not sure what you mean by "phase conductors".
Just thinking single phase, USA, residential.
So what would/could happen, in a (3 wire power cord) Fender BF Bassman for example, if the Neutral was not grounded.?
Thanks

Not my words. But, phase conductors equals hot, line, etc. USA residential is 240 single phase. You had it right, that's 240 center tapped, or 120-0-120. The center tap is the neutral. Now, in your Bassman example (thought this had absolutely nothing to do with guitar amps  ), suppose the hot (AKA line, phase conductor, etc) wire shorts to chassis which is connected to earth ground. But the neutral is not bonded to ground back at the entrance panel. Ain't no circuit breaker gonna trip. This becomes a big safety issue.

Seriously, ask these same questions in google and you'll get a ton of info, and a lot of it will even be accurate.

[J Rindt]

Hey sluckey -
Thanks.
Yeah, I did punch the question into Yahoo, but either I did not read far enough or I just did not understand the explanations. At any rate, I get it now. Did not even consider the "short" scenario. And yeah, I let those other Bozo's sucker me into using a guitar amp for an example. 
Thanks Again

[J Rindt]

At this point, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry.
Even though I got suckered into using a guitar amp for an example......my question REALLY AND TRULY has nothing to do with amps. I was speaking in terms of a distribution system. I am fully aware that Neutral is not chassis grounded.
I thank you for your honest and polite response to my question. I NEVER should have asked it.
Best 
 

J R.  your question was not stupid.  In fact I believe that it was an intelligent question.  You were asking questions about something you did not know any thing about.   You took the smart approach. 

Referencing back to the three wire Bassman, I do not believe that the neutral (white) is grounded to the chassis.  I believe the green wire is the one that is grounded. 

[PRR]

> Why is Neutral grounded?

See Doug's post about his house hit by lightning. If there is NO ground on the house electric system, even a slight near-miss will induce all the wire to HIGH voltage, sparks jumping out of the walls, transformers break down. Grounding some point on the house wires gives such surges a place to go with less harm. Conversely lightning on the street-poles tends to go to ground rather than through the house. (In Doug's case it was a real HIT and no practical ground would have saved his well-pump or PCs.)

And for assured fuse-blow when a live wire touches ground or groundED cases, sure. (There are systems run UN-grounded when the damage from a blown fuse exceeds the risk of a "live" case: steel-mill motors are the main example. These need Special Supervision.)

NEC requires ALL conductors to return to dirt via approved paths. A strict reading would include aluminum siding (there is a case where siding got electrified by a nail through a wire and nobody knew until someone leaned a ladder against it... if the siding were grounded that nail would have blown a fuse and forced investigation).

You obviously can't ground all 2 (or 3) wires in a power line. Pick one and ground it; the other(s) will be forced to a known reasonable voltage relative to ground. We like to stay within 150V of ground. We also like the copper-savings of 240V power on large loads. 120V-0V-120V grounded in the middle gives us both.

> So what would/could happen, in a (3 wire power cord) Fender BF Bassman for example, if the Neutral was not grounded?

You don't care, but.....

Probably no problem at all, in most cases.

Perhaps a rise of hum, though if all the wall-wires are on the same floating ground, probably not.

Bad shock if _anything_ on the circuit has a ground-leak and you touch the Bassman and a ground (pipe, dirt, concrete). If the house wiring were truly ungrounded, and the pole-transformer had stray leakage to the HV line feeding it, the whole house "could" rise to 13,000 Volts away from dirt. That's enough to pull shocks through wooden floors.

A fair number of US homes are NOT really grounded. Often there is no clue, at least if you are not suspecting a problem.

If you are floating a studio.... it's illegal, it's confusing to everybody else, insulation break-down is a serious worry, you better be SURE there is NO path to external ground.... but yes, you can run a power system totally-floating from the world, just like a flashlight or airplane.

[PRR]

> 120/240, or 120/208, depending on if the three phase power coming is delta secondary, or wye secondary.

120/240 is almost universally Single Phase.... not sure how you can get a 2:1 ratio when a 3-phase system is riddled with the factor 1.73?

120/208 is natural on 3-phase Wye (120*1.73= 208). Stuff like stoves and water-heaters rated 240V will work on 208 just slower. 240V motors not working HARD won't mind 208. Compressors may fail to turn-over that first stroke, problem.

> the electrical code is constantly changing.

Yes, and Richard has to keep-up with all the details. But much of the basics haven't changed in decades.

> there is huge and expensive move to go to wye systems, because of the voltage stability desired.

Hmmmm. In 3-phase, if loads are all lamps heaters motors, either way works. Wye is handy if you need a lower voltage, though it does need a 4th wire. If 3-phase loads are balanced and low-volt loads are small, the N wire can be quite small, so not a huge cost.

Rectifier loads confound Wye. The sharp harmonics add-up in Neutral in the worst way. The RMS current in N can equal or exceed the phase wires' current. Terminations burn off and all heck breaks loose. Delta connection avoids this.

[J Rindt]

PRR -
Thank You.
Those are some great examples.
It all seems so simple, as to make me feel stupid for asking, when it is explained. Like I should have been able to figure it out for myself......but obviously not.
From working on guitar amps, I have just, naturally become curious about this "stuff".
A guy I went to school with ended up working in Georgia for the power company. He was hurt pretty bad while fixing damage to poles after a storm. I guess he was close enough to one or more homes that had hooked up generators to their panels without any kind of Transfer/Disconnect Switch. Those home(s) back-fed to his area of work and make him  jerk back real hard and cause a bad cut/injury to his dominant arm.
Anyway.....
Thank you (all of you) so much for the education.
I Appreciate It

[jim]

Here is my story.  I was repairing one of those old Silvertone amps that has the split chassis--I don't remember the model. The upper preamp is connected to the lower power amp with coax and rusty splayed RCA plugs--signal on the center conducter with the braid being the only connection between the two chassis.   I was standing on the concrete basement floor in sneakers playing the amp which now sounded fabulous.  While I was doing the final Pete Townshend "windmill" test I dropped the pick to the concrete floor.  I bent over to pick it up while gripping only the guitar and the jolt nearly knocked me over--The path to earth ground was now through my chest.  The amp still worked perfectly although the neutral floated looking for the nearest earth ground.  I bonded the chassis together with a piece of #14 house wire to make it safe-Neutrals now tied to earth at the service entrance.  That was the worst shock I ever felt but I learned the lesson real well.  Jim

[Ritchie200]

Grounding gospel - the ground and neutral must be bonded at the MAIN panel.  Sub-panels must NOT be bonded.

Jim

[sluckey]

I think everyone is missing the real question he is asking. If the neutral was not grounded there would be no current flowing through the circuit, think of a car battery electrons flow from one end to the other in a car if you disconected the negative side of the battery the energy cannot flow from one side to the other. so it would not light the lamps, radio,ignition, or anything the requires a flow of electricity.
Bill

No. The neutral does not need to be grounded for current to flow throught the circuit. Your car battery is a bad analogy because the car industry relies on the metal chassis to be a current conductor.

[PRR]

The car battery negative is not grounded to DIRT.

On a dry day, measure voltage and resistance each battery terminal to dirt. "Zero" voltage at *either* terminal, infinite resistance. (If you have the old straps that drag on the ground to dissipate the static of sliding on mohair seats, put plastic under the straps.)

Contrast with your house. Voltage: zero V on ground screw, small voltage on one slot, 120V on other slot. After checking for ZERO! voltage on house ground screw, try resistance just from ground (NOT the live wires, not even "neutral) to dirt. Resistance should be low, though sticking a meter-probe an inch in damp may read many K-ohms.

Car works un-Grounded.

As Steve says, everybody calls the frame "ground" and it is used in place of a return wire(s!), but it isn't the same thing.

Running cars un-grounded is safe. Unlike houses, cars do not get power from a central source which is liable to be grounded and in practice "must" be tied to dirt frequently. (Also it would be awkward to maintain an 8-foot dirt-rod on a moving vehicle.) (Electric railroads are extensively dirt-grounded.)

[Tone Junkie]

Yes both of you are absolutly right .

[J Rindt]

I do not see any "complicated" answers. The first two thought I was talking about guitar amps.
Sluckey and the others guys explained it thoroughly.
I still have no idea what you are suggesting.
Best

Yes both of you are absolutly right ,I think he was just asking how that circuit worked . I think the neutral being grounded was a poor choice of words as was my analogy about the negative on a battery being grounded .
 What I thought he was asking was why neutral was (grounded) just like the ground wire was back at the switch box of the house. we are  trying to create a path for current to flow. I was just trying break it down to basic concept maybe I went to far.
But after several complicated answers he was asking the same question in a differant way.
Thanks Bill

[sluckey]

What I thought he was asking was why neutral was (grounded) just like the ground wire was back at the switch box of the house. we are  trying to create a path for current to flow.

That's exactly what he was asking. And the short answer is "the neutral is bonded to the ground (earth) purely as a safety feature". Connecting the neutral to ground has nothing to do with 'creating' a path for current to flow'. Current flow is from the AC hot, thru the load, and back to the neutral. The direction of this current flow reverses 60 times per second. The only time current will flow in a ground conductor is when you have a problem.

[J Rindt]

Wow.....!!!!!!
This has turned into a REAL WEIRD posting.
I will just say that the previous SLUCKEY post perfectly Explains and Answers  my Question.
Thank You
WWW.
Doug Hoffman
sluckey "et al"
and The Grounded Neutral
 

[J Rindt]

What no discussion about isolated grounds (common at hospitals and dentist offices)  And no discussion about electrical systems on ships?   No discussion regarding double insulated electrical equipment?  

P.S. I will not play guitar barefooted on concrete, because Faraday and I do not get along.  I do not use microphones, because of >3 bites.      

Regarding negatives being grounded.  I have worked on many a car and tractor where the positive was chassis ground.

I would not mind some more FREE education from my betters.
So what about ships/submarines not being grounded.?
And what about the "redundant" ground that I see in a Dentist Office for example.?
Thank You

{EDIT: un-tangled quote code -- PRR}

[PRR]

> car and tractor where the positive was chassis ground.

Dirt is ground!!

The car is not grounded. The tractor is sometimes grounded, as when plow is in dirt (or backhoe hits conduit), but that's got nothing to do with the electricals.

There's a lot of wires even in a 1942 Plymouth. Wire from battery to switch to light/motor/lighter and back to other battery lug.

There is (except in some Lotus) an electrical conductor ALL over the vehicle: the frame. Iron isn't as good for its size as copper, but it's cheaper, and is typically MUCH larger than wires because it is sized for strength/stiffness.

An exposed return path is not un-safe, as it is in houses. When the starter motor works hard there could be 1V difference between body and engine block (voltage-drop in return strap), that's not dangerous. Worst-case, body strap fails, there could be 6V (later 12V) between frame and body, but that's not dangerous and this fault would kill a lot of systems.

So they save half the cost of wiring a car by using the body/frame as half of the wires.

Which DOES lead to a host of crazy problems. On the Plymouth we no longer trust rusty metal return paths, are running wires to anything that used to return through the body.

Which battery-terminal you pick to be "frame" is not very important. There's some influence on corrosion, but salt does more damage than stray current. There's a preferred polarity for ignition spark, but we would swap coil wires to get that right (and it isn't a huge difference). Many British cars had positive-return, and many british cars had electrical problems, but that was Lucas not polarity. The trend to negative return gelled in the late 1950s with alternators and transistorized radios. Before this, you could put the battery in backward with little or no consequence.

[PRR]

> isolated grounds (common at hospitals and dentist offices)

AFAIK (Richard may correct me), these ARE grounded, AT the service entrance, just like other circuits.

The difference comes if there are sub-panels after the service entrance. Conventionally a sub-panel has a ground bus and a groundING wire back to service entrance. An isolated ground skips this bus and is run all the way back to the main service entrance. This reduces corruption and stray voltage from other circuits on the sub-panel ground bus. (Corrections welcome.)

> what about ships/submarines not being grounded?

A metal hull in salt water has the greatest ground around.

Metal ships may or may not use hull-return to reduce the number of wires needed, I just don't know.

Most fresh water conducts, and probably better than damp dirt (sure better than dry dirt, or my rock).

I'm not familiar with grounding on plastic boats.

Certainly the lights and motors don't need a ground/water connection to work.

[RicharD]

Sorry I haven't been around much lately.  The band is consuming all my leisure time (which is great BTW) and truth be told, I haven't touched a soldering iron since March.  It's late and I didn't read most of this thread (other than PRR's posts) and he's spot on as to how it's "supposed" to be wired.  Unfortunately that's not always the case.  I'm kinda gonna hit thangs in reverse order:

An isolated ground receptacle has the ground pin separate from the yoke.  It's supposed to be installed in a metallic box so the receptacles chassis (for lack of a better term) is tied to the common ground via the mounting screws.  The ground lug is supposed to be tied to a separate ground conductor which is supposed to be run "isolated" back to main bonding point.  The IG thang was highly fashionable in the 80's and 90's when computers were much more fussy about power sources.  I don't see it called for nearly so much these days mainly because the basic codes have changed requiring a ground conductor always and individual neutrals for each 120V branch circuit.  Back in the day, conduit and even flex conduit up to 6' was legally a ground path.  Pretty shabby when you factor in vibrations, thermal expansions, the weather elements, and pot head electricians who forget to tighten fitting or cheat a connector because he cut the pipe too short.

Branch circuit grounding is kewl and over grounding probably the most important thang you can do to have a quiet circuit, along with not loading circuits up with a bunch of lights and coffee pots -n- such.  It plays a huge role in over current and short circuit situations.  Ground fault circuit interrupters and arc fault circuit interrupters are the bee's knees when it comes to safety.  I've come out a winner from more than 1 bad situation because a GFCI receptacle did it's thang.

OK... so the neutral is grounded and the ground is grounding in the code book.  Confusing right?  They both tie to the same point so what's the difference?  The "grounded" conductor is the intended return path for normal 120V loads.  The "grounding" conductor is the emergency return path in a short circuit situation and the safety bond under normal conditions.  Yes it's somewhat redundant but you don't want currents flowing in the path that connect the shell of your toaster to earth when you spill coffee on it barefoot first thang in the morning.  I've seen a ton of old 2 wired houses with 3 wire receptacles installed such that the ground pin is tied to the neutral.  This will fake out your plug bug tester but could become lethal if there is a breach in the neutral up stream, a big load down stream, and you get between the miswire and another ground such as a faucet or even being barefoot on a concrete floor.  Concrete is an extremely poor conductor, but it does conduct.

So when I earth an electrical system, I do it at the point of entry or main disconnect.  I want this bond to be as secure as possible and make as much earth contact directly associated with the building as possible.  Hands down the best earthing technique is to attach to the rebar in the slab.  Now your connected to a large metallic grid directly under foot.  code also requires bonding to the gas pipe system and cold water system (if installed in metallic pipe).  Sometimes a house is pier and beam in which case there's no rebar to bond to.  Now you resort to ground rods, plates, or lengths of copper burried at least 30" in a trench.  Bottom line is, the more earth contact, the faster a breaker will trip in a short circuit.

[RicharD]

Let's head out to the pole now.  If you look, you'll see at least a #6 copper ground wire running up the pole and tied to the center tap of the transformer secondary.  Well hey, the neutral is earthed right there.  Why all the fuss?  Because dirt is a crappy conductor.  Zero volt at my house would not be zero volt at my neighbor's house, or even the pole that serves them both unless wired together.  Like it or not, electricity seeks ground and it will take the shortest path to get there with total disregard for your well being if you happen to be in this path.

Now look up at that transformer on that pole.  Keeping it simple by describing residential single phase, the secondary is 240V center tapped.  We earth the center tap giving us 2 120v legs.  The primary OTOH is fed with something in the neighborhood of 10,000 volts.  If we did not earth that secondary CT, voltages could and would float towards that 10kV.  You'd still only have 120V hot to center tap, but you could potentially have 10kV center tap to earth.  Your lights would work fine but if you touched your toaster and a faucet at the same time, your hands would explode.  Everybody has heard of "that guy" who got killed stealing copper off of telephone poles. You tend to picture some idiot climbing poles with a big ass pair of cutters, but most of them are stealing the bare copper on the pole at grade level.  As soon as he cuts that bond, the center tap floats and depending on the customers earthing and the distance away, it could become an extremely lethal potential difference at that instant.

I worked on a mobile home that was about 250 feet away from the utility transformer.  The lady said she touched her dryer and the sink and got tossed across the room.  I put my meter across the 2 and read like 290 volts which blew my mind at the time.  A little exploration and I discovered her service lacked any earthing and the trailer itself was not electrically bonded.  Trying a quick fix, I bonded the neutral to a tie down spike and it sparked.  I also hear that familiar click of a breaker tripping.  Turns out the dish washer (which hadn't worked in over a year) had a case short and an open neutral.  Since the sub panel grounds were connected to nothing but each other, the breaker never tripped and everything in that home with a ground pin had a hot case.  Scary example of the difference between an electrical system that works, and one that works correctly.

[J Rindt]

Richard D -
"Now look up at that transformer on that pole.  Keeping it simple by describing residential single phase, the secondary is 240V center tapped.  We earth the center tap giving us 2 120v legs.  The primary OTOH is fed with something in the neighborhood of 10,000 volts.  If we did not earth that secondary CT, voltages could and would float towards that 10kV.  You'd still only have 120V hot to center tap, but you could potentially have 10kV center tap to earth."
Can you explain that.?
Why/How does the CT have primary voltage  potential to ground.?
Thank You

[RicharD]

If the center tap is not connected to earth it can and will float to the point of least resistance.  Here's a simple experiment:  Grab a scrap filament transformer.  Anything will work but lower voltage is of course safer.  I'll assume you have a 6VAC secondary.  Light it up with no load and no secondary earthing.  Put your AC meter on the secondary leads and you should read 6V.  Now put 1 probe to a known earth ground on your bench and the other probe to one of the transformer secondary leads.  Note the AC voltage.  Leaving the first probe earthed, now connect the 2nd probe to the other transformer secondary lead and note that voltage.  I'll bet you a nickle one or both of those measurement is greater than 6VAC and very likely quite close to the wall voltage.  Now create a virtual center tap on the secondary with a pair of 100 ohm resistors and earth the common point.  Repeat the experiment. Now each lead should read 3VAC with respects to the earth ground on your bench. 

The physical characteristics of all dry type transformers are the same.  You've got at least to individual coils of insulated wire wrapped around a hunk of iron.  Turns ratio is equal to voltage ratio.  You size your wire large enough to handle the load.  The rest is all math.  Passing power through a transformer is known as a "separately derived system" in an electrician's world and we MUST earth the common point of the secondary.  Same rules apply apply in an amp for HT or filaments.  If you don't earth the filaments in some form or fashion, the amp hums because the newly derived voltage is floating.

Try the experiment.  Doing is seeing.... or something like that. :):

[J Rindt]

Awesome.!
I enjoy learning and will try your experiment as soon as I get a chance.
Stay tuned......!!!!!

[PRR]

> electricity seeks ground

Electricity goes back where it came from.

Battery power goes back to the battery.

The power-company electrons all return to the power company. If we could build a totally un-grounded power utility, it would work fine.

The BIG problem is Lightning. It came from ground, scrubbed-up by weather turbulence, and when built-up enough it returns to ground. Via any route it wants. Lightning is SURE to get onto utility systems. Even if our homes were "ungrounded" for normal voltages, million-volt hits WILL find a way to ground through anything.

The secondary problem is, as you say, the 10,000V used to carry electric long distances, and the fairly thin insulation from "our side". There's always leakage. Some of this is to the pole to ground. Because the electric company gets all their electrons back, there must be a counter-current from ground somewhere. Real utility systems have millions of "small" ground leaks, and can induce stray voltages in the strangest ways. The direct "fix" is to ground each customer. Both at the pole (to steer leakage away from customer) at at the house (the dirt you stand on, and that your water-pipe comes through).

Since any real-world power system "MUST!" be grounded at one line, the "hot" lines will return through ground if given a chance. It's actually seeking the power company, and the white wire works best, but it can also go through you to dirt to rod and back to white.

> If the center tap is not connected to earth it can and will float to the point of least resistance.

Small (heater) transformers have symmetric insulation and will typically float near half the primary voltage, but loaded-down by the meter. In your example, 120V primary, I'd expect 10V-50V.

The 10,000V transformer (assuming 1-phase or Wye) is better insulated on one end than the other. The "float point" may be "only" 1,000V. Still not something you want superimposed on your toaster-to-faucet.

[J Rindt]

PRR - "The BIG problem is Lightning. It came from ground, scrubbed-up by weather turbulence, and when built-up enough it returns to ground. Via any route it wants. Lightning is SURE to get onto utility systems. Even if our homes were "ungrounded" for normal voltages, million-volt hits WILL find a way to ground through anything."

Sorry if I am asking another stupid question.....The electrons in a Lightning "Bolt", are they going from dirt to cloud or from cloud to dirt.?
Thank You

[PRR]

> going from dirt to cloud or from cloud to dirt.?

What's the difference?

[J Rindt]

> going from dirt to cloud or from cloud to dirt.?

What's the difference?

The difference.?
OK.
Does a cloud have Positive charge with Negative electrons in the dirt attracted to the cloud.?
Or would it be the opposite.?
Does Lightning enter your head and exit your feet, or does it enter your feet and exit your head up to a cloud.?
Doesn't it need to be one way or the other.?

[John]

PRR will have the knowledge to explain much better than me, but I have seen photos of the lightning strike coming towards ground (tree) BUT then an arc jumping from the tree to meet the lightning strike. The spark jumps the gap, in other words.

Either way the lightning travels through you, not so good. 

[J Rindt]

Interesting....
I was talking to a teacher (electronics) at our local College. He told me he was not sure he could say definitively, but he was of the opinion it was from ground to cloud. It was a few years ago, but his explanation was similar to yours. That it is kind of an allusion that there is a "bolt" leaving the cloud and entering the Earth (or Lee Trevino).
Thanks for your info and insight. A very interesting discussion indeed.
Thanks Again

[PRR]

> Doesn't it need to be one way or the other?

You get hit by a bus. Do you care if it was a northbound bus or a southbound bus? Do you care if it hits you in the face or it hits you in the butt? Either or any way, you are a stain on the road.

Yeah, there is surely a direction in lightning, maybe more than one. I'll take what John and drgonzonm suggest, just for reference.

[J Rindt]

> Doesn't it need to be one way or the other?

Yeah, there is surely a direction in lightning, maybe more than one. I'll take what John and drgonzonm suggest, just for reference.

So will I.

[Ritchie200]

I just spent the last two days with a Soil Scientist that teaches at our State University.  If I ever said "Dirt" in his presence, he would beat me with a shovel!!!

Jim

[J Rindt]

What kind of studies were he/you guys doing.?
Best

[Steve_P]

This thread is epic!
That is all.

[sluckey]

There is a dragline in Central Florida who has been named ACE of SPACES

I knew him/her. First debuted on Eglin Pkwy in FWB.