Relay Board idea

[EL34]

After several people asked if I would make a turret board for relays, I drew up a design and cut out a few on my CNC machine

I think having turret lugs for the relay socket is not that great of an idea, but for the wires, it's great
So, I made some hybrid prototypes just to nail down a design

Andy at Mojo drew up the final designs
I am getting some laser cut samples to approve and then they go into production.

The final boards will look more like the green bias checker board shown below in the before and after image.

The final design on the relay board will be for a single relay, not a double as most of my prototype board pictures below show.

There's a close up shot of one of my crude prototype relay boards shown below

[TIMBO]

Great idea EL, I was thinking that if you solded the relay to the top of the turrets it would make it difficult to remove if there was a problem with it later. I have sorced some 12v relays but the pins don't fit into the IC socket.Thanks

[Willabe]

Yes, I think that will get it done. They look good.

Maybe a couple of weeks and you'll have all the new parts in stock?


                      Brad     

[kagliostro]

Very nice idea, simply and effective

K

[tubenit]

I think that is a VERY well thought out design & I like it!!

I agree with you that the turrets are more useful for the wiring but not as useful for the relay socket.

GREAT design!  THANKS!

Doing it that way would save ALOT of time compared to lacing turrets together. Really ingenius approach, IMO.

Tubenit

[EL34]

Yes, I think that will get it done. They look good.
Maybe a couple of weeks and you'll have all the new parts in stock?

I already have all the parts in stock.

All I need to do is figure out what to sell the boards for.

It takes 7+ minutes to cut one board out on the cnc machine and I usually charge $1 per minute for machine time.
But I cut out many at a time on a bigger sheet and so that reduces cost
Once the machine is set up, it can cut out as many as I want.

What do you guys think the board itself should sell for?

[tubenit]

I look at it this way .............. 

IF I bought the board material & cut the board with my hacksaw (which is what I use) & drilled my own holes & laced my own turrets ......  to get two relay layout on one board done would probably take me 45 min at least.

Since these don't have to be laced and they are predrilled (correctly vs. my hand held drill), that would be a huge time saver for me.  Plus this is a very good design. 

I am thinking maybe $7-10 for the drilled board that fits two relays? Of course, the relay sockets, turrets, etc...... would be a separate and additional cost. I don't know if that would be cost effective for Doug, but that would be what I would think might be a reasonable range?

Anyhow, they would easily be worth that to me so I didn't have to cut, drill and lace my own.

The other advantage of Doug's is that the one I built had the relay socket into turrets.  Do-able but somewhat challenging to solder. And it made the installed relay set somewhat higher than I would like.  This would allow a lower mounted relay which is an advantage placed between the layout board and the pots.

With respect, Tubenit

[Stankfut]

I was also thinking in the $10 range. I've always wanted to experiment with relays, and this looks like a solid design......I'd buy one

[EL34]

I'm thinking $7 on the 12 boards that I cut out for this test run.

The design looks very good to me and so what may happen next is I have the boards made at an outside source
Just like I did with the bias checker boards.

The bias checker boards were originally made on my CNC, then outsourced
The quality was much better and the price came way down.

Here's a shot of a bias checker board before and after

The off site made boards are way nicer
Plus, the off site boards can have silk screening with text

[EL34]

And now that I look at this board with all the parts on it. I can get rid of the 4 lugs with red squares.

The relay coil + and - wires can just be attached to the diode lugs

Now it's down to 16 turret lugs

[PRR]

No reason the diode needs to take-up turret space. Boff two more small holes on the 0.3" spacing of the DIP relay and stuff it in there.

[tubenit]

If you're going to lose those four turrets, I would lean more towards PRR's way.  I think that's reasonable & still allows for turrets that you can drop wires into instead of wrapping around.

The reason for that is most of the relays are in a somewhat narrow space between a layout board and the pots.  Yes, one can wrap wire around a turret. However, on the pot side of the relay, that is somewhat challenging because of the chassis front and pots there.

In that narrow space being able to drop a wire into a turret hole on top sure does simply things.  I would suggest at least punching out the hole for those (4) turrets so they could be an option for those wanting them.

Just an opinion.  I'm supportive of how ever you want to do this. All the options are workable, IMO.

With respect, Tubenit

[DummyLoad]

No reason the diode needs to take-up turret space. Boff two more small holes on the 0.3" spacing of the DIP relay and stuff it in there.

best plan....

for < 10 bux. i'd hit it.

--DL

[RicharD]

I misread Tubenit's post, but I'd wiggle the turret lugs to allow a tad more space.

[The_Gaz]

Boy, I would have loved this 6 months ago. I've since been making my own relay boards that look almost identical, only of course I use buss wire on the bottom to jump the eyelets/turrets. I'm still really excited by this thread because the boards are so time consuming, and a pain in the ass to wire.

My only suggestion would be to cut the board in half and sell individual boards or even a set of two if need be. That way, if you have to switch something early in the preamp and a master volume at the end of the preamp, you won't have to run their wiring needlessly close to each other, and can isolate the boards with some physical space. I'm sure the one board could be more useful to some, but it doesn't have the same flexibility.

But yeah, this is great idea since the only other relay PCB out there are crap or cost-prohibitive.

[Willabe]

Would there be any capacitive coupling/leakage with the traces being so close together?

Also will the farmed out boards be hole through, I think that's what they call it?


              Brad     

[TIMBO]

Looking good EL, For all my builds i use a standard 2mm thick copper clad pcb sheet and use a standard type turret lug and these also are too long to swag so i leave a circle of copper around the lug (after etching)and just solder the lug in place,so is it cheeper to use off the shelf PCB board. Also if you are using an IC socket you have to solder it in place so the turrets could be as well. This is another option, don't drill any of the holes to cater for the turrets and drill all the holes the same size as the relay pins,that way rather than running a wire off the lug the wire can be soldered directly to the board and this will give options. Thanks 

[EL34]

No reason the diode needs to take-up turret space. Boff two more small holes on the 0.3" spacing of the DIP relay and stuff it in there

That might work. Have to see if I can bend the diode leads over and fit between the lugs.

I could leave the four holes  just in case someone wanted to add more lugs.

You still need to jumper the coil + together on each half
An under the board wire or wrap around a turret would method be good.
And you should jumper the coil + on each half, before you mounted it in the amp.

The big double line in the middle is where you can cut the board in half, but then you only have one mounting hole unless you waste the right half and cut the board further to the right

Would there be any capacitive coupling/leakage with the traces being so close together?

I can only guess, but I say no. Most relay boards have traces closer together than my boards do

Also will the farmed out boards be hole through, I think that's what they call it?

Probably, that's how the bias boards are. The solder pads go through both sides of the boards.

Looking good EL, For all my builds i use a standard 2mm thick copper clad pcb sheet and use a standard type turret lug and these also are too long to swag so i leave a circle of copper around the lug (after etching)and just solder the lug in place,so is it cheeper to use off the shelf PCB board. Also if you are using an IC socket you have to solder it in place so the turrets could be as well. This is another option, don't drill any of the holes to cater for the turrets and drill all the holes the same size as the relay pins,that way rather than running a wire off the lug the wire can be soldered directly to the board and this will give options. Thanks

 

I will be using off the shelf .062 inch thick boards and off the shelf turret lugs made for .062" thick board.
Most people don't want to solder to PC board traces. As Jeff pointed out above, it's really tight working in the amp. The best way is to drop a wire down a turret hole and solder it from above.
If I have these boards made, you can always just solder right to the solder pads where the lugs would normally go.
The manufactured boards would have through hole solder pads on both sides of the boards on the lug holes

I will not be assembling these boards, so you can build yours any way you want it.

[tubenit]

EL34,

I just want to say THANKS for your help with this!  I am impressed with your willingness to continue helping this amp community.  Bravo!

When I look at the unmatched quality of your business service, fast shipping,  top notch parts, Library of Information (something I continue to refer to), your posts, sponsoring this forum, actually being a great guitarist yourself, instructions on recording music,  and appropriately warped sense of humor .............

I am genuinely grateful for ALL you do to help this amp building community get great tone! 

I think these relay boards will be a huge help for those of us that like relay switching. 

With the original relay documentation and instruction you gave us ........... & these recent threads, schematics and layout ............. installing relays is a very do-able enterprise and a really fun feature to have. 

Even playing here at home,  I almost always have the ft switched relay pedal hooked up with the D'Mars OD Special. The ft switched relays sure give one a bunch of tonal options on the fly. 

THANKS & with respect, Tubenit

[EL34]

Thanks,
It's fun for me to design things

Ok, going with PRR's idea, here's a doctored image with 4 turret lugs removed and the diodes are in regular pc pin sized holes

Crap, I just noticed that I have my relay coil Plus and minus reversed
Working with the copper side upside down confused me I guess

Ok, I assembled another one with the correct + and - indicated
I just soldered the diodes into the existing turret lug holes

[spacelabstudio]

What I like most about this is it suggests a good general strategy for getting components that would be awkward in a turret board layout well integrated into a turret board design.

[EL34]

Yeah, the mix of pc board holes for the sockets, diodes and turret lugs looks like the way to go.
I know that I hate soldering wires to pc boards
I much prefer Turret lugs

I updated the hookup info on my relay page in the library.
http://www.el34world.com/projects/relay_switch.htm

[TIMBO]

Again a great idea, Two things, are you still using the IC socket to mount the relays?? If so, how snugg/tight are the sockets to be able to hold the relay if the chassis is mounted upside down,could the relay work itself loose  . This was mention to me when trying to find a socket for the larger relay pins that are on the 12v relays that i have( i did find a socket that will fit) but i was corcerned that the weight of the relay might work itself loose. It was suggested that a wire retainer like used on tubes or a light guage insulated wire tied around the relay, zip tie.  Thanks

[kagliostro]

Something like this ?



http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/12768/229240/229266/229655/229727/tab4.html



http://www.schukat.com/schukat/schukat_cms_en.nsf/index/CMSDF15D356B046D53BC1256D550038A9E0?OpenDocument&wg=E6481&refDoc=CMS11515ED0477BF2C3C12578F7003F0082

K

[John]

Timbo, the relays that I got from Doug are no way, no how coming out of that socket without some careful plier work.

Doug, nice work on the relay board. Myself, I'll gladly cough up 10 bucks to not make my own!

Tubenit, once again you are part of a Very Good Idea. Cheers!

[TIMBO]

Yeah K, Something like the bottom one. 

[EL34]

Again a great idea, Two things, are you still using the IC socket to mount the relays?? If so, how snugg/tight are the sockets to be able to hold the relay if the chassis is mounted upside down,could the relay work itself loose  . This was mention to me when trying to find a socket for the larger relay pins that are on the 12v relays that i have( i did find a socket that will fit) but i was corcerned that the weight of the relay might work itself loose. It was suggested that a wire retainer like used on tubes or a light guage insulated wire tied around the relay, zip tie.   Thanks

The relays are in the sockets very firmly
You can't easily pull the relays out of the sockets with your fingers.
The only way is to stick a very thin flat tool under the relay and pry it out gently

You don't need any wire retainers
These are very light weight relays
If you had a very heavy relay, I can see the need to strap it down

[DummyLoad]

two 1/8' holes on each end of the relay socket is you need. use a 1/8" zip tie.

--DL

[EL34]

There's already mounting screws at each end
If you must be anal, you can rig a wire with round terminal lugs and use the mounting screws

really, this is not an issue, you guys are dreaming up scenarios that can't come true

[TIMBO]

Thanks EL, The socket is a great idea, and not using your parts, i found that there is not a IC socket that fits my relays tightly but the socket that K has presented is only a couple of bucks each.Thanks again 

[EL34]

Thanks EL, The socket is a great idea, and not using your parts, i found that there is not a IC socket that fits my relays tightly but the socket that K has presented is only a couple of bucks each.Thanks again 

The 5volt low signal relays I stock are also available in 12v
It may be worth switching

[John]

really, this is not an issue, you guys are dreaming up scenarios that can't come true

You mean like they do with the federal budget? 

[tubenit]

I can't imagine the relays coming out of the sockets?  They fit pretty tight, IMO. 

I broke one (out of 4) trying to get it out. How's that for a tight fit?  I couldn't budge it with my fingers and using pliars to wobble it loose, broke a side.  I had to order a replacement from Doug.

Just saying.   with respect, Tubenit

[LooseChange]

Very nice.
How about a board without the turrets and make those holes a bit smaller?
I can see the turrets very useful for prototype work but for final assembly, I would rather just wire direct to the board.
Thanks!

[EL34]

I am not including the turrets
You would order all the parts separately to make the board yourself

Just solder to the turret pads

[Tone Junkie]

Ok now we have a double any chance to make a single board also. I have been building my own for a while but my time is just worth to much to me right now.
 I just dont mind buying them instead. I  work to much anymore its taken me 3 months to to get my board done for the new TOS Im building.
 Building planes is cool but the company I work for thinks I belong to them 24/7 ( LOL).
Doug keep us posted, Im in for a couple when you get them done .
Thanks Bill

[EL34]

Well, I have 10 of them right now if anyone wants them.
I'll do the boards for $7.50 each with all the lugs installed
By boards, I mean just the boards

To complete the boards you also need
2 - relay sockets
2 - relays
2 - 6-32 x 1/2" long screws
2 - 1/4" nylon standoffs - use #8's for now, I am ordering #6 standoffs

Several of the boards already have the lugs and sockets attached
But I think I will go ahead and do that to all 10 boards

Let me know if you want one

[tubenit]

Please set aside 2 of those boards for me!   I've got some other stuff to order from you & I'll place an order for all of it before this week is up.

I am not sure if I'm understanding you correctly?    IF you are adding the turrets and the socket relay,  I'd prefer you charge me $7.50 a board to help compensate your efforts.  

THANKS,  Tubenit

FYI:   Just a reminder .................  there is a thread here that has some good documentation plus it contains the link to Doug's Library of Information on building these relays:

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14348.0

There is enough information to make this a reasonably easy project & I will tell you that it's great being able to switch tones with foot switch.

[tubenit]

EL34,

PLEASE don't throw any sharp or heavy objects at my head ..................................

Any chance that you'd be willing to carry a relay power supply board also ???  Since this would be all turrets, the normal board material could be used.

I built mine with an extra 330uf cap that was probably not needed at all?

I'm thinking that "option 1" would be the best since it would maintain the narrow width that the relay boards had?

In the attached photo, the relay power board I built works fine with the D'Mars ODS but would be too wide to use in my Tweed BluezMeister that has a narrower "tweed style 18w chassis".

AND if you're not interested in carrying a relay power board punched out with turret holes,  we can easily build our own.

With respect, Tubenit

[EL34]

Ok, I forgot about the lugs and labor, $7.50 works better
I'll change my post above

When I get to the shop, I will create a public parts list for all the parts.
That way, people can click one button and add all the parts to the shopping cart.

I'll be doing a power supply board also when I get time.

[EL34]

Option 1 looks the best
You only need four turrent lugs

The voltage regulator, capacitor and bridge can go into pc sized holes

The bridge can go also have four lugs
2 for AC in wires and 2 for DC out wires

[tubenit]

Option 1 looks the best
You only need four turrent lugs

The voltage regulator, capacitor and bridge can go into pc sized holes

The bridge can go also have four lugs
2 for AC in wires and 2 for DC out wires

So, I'm thinking from this response that you're envisioning using the copper boards instead of the "normal" layout board material?
I was thinking the normal board material but have no strong preference ?  I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind on this?

With respect, Tubenit

[EL34]

The relay board and the power supply board would be .062" thick pc boards just like the bias boards shown below.
I am working with Andy at Mojo on them because he has a good boardmaker.
Andy makes the Hoffman bias boards and sells them with my name on them
The finished relay boards and power supply boards would look like the green boards in the image down below
See how all the holes have solder pads on both sides of the boards?

I changed my mind on option 1

Here's a quick mock up of the power supply board
The bridge could be substituted with 4 stand alone diodes

The green lines would be under the board traces

I just grabbed a piece of board and drilled some holes for this mock up, it's not a real board

[kagliostro]

Doug your price is really competitive

Here is a commercial product similar to your proposal



yes, it has a good look, but your's is only a prototype

Your PS is way long better, the connection is by turrets and comparing prices you won of many lengths !

K

[EL34]

Well that board in the picture above has all the parts
Mine will be just the board and then you have to buy the parts
So with the parts, my boards would cost you more than $7.50

Yes, I do not want to put the power supply on the same board as the relays.

I like to have the power supply down near the power tranny and then just run 5VDC to the relay boards
And I don't like to have AC coming up near the pots and signal wires
My relay boards will probably end up under the pots near signal wires

Also, you can hook up more than one relay board to the power supply, so it does not make sense to me to have the power supply fixed to a relay board

[tubenit]

I agree with Doug,  I don't want the relay power amps on the same board as the relays.  I want options to move it where it will be it's quietest.

With respect, Tubenit

[kagliostro]

Of course your price refers to only one board, I considered it

your realization is way more strong than that and your PS is better for many reasons, not the last the fact that you can keep the AC path far from the relays and sensitive circuits

K

p.s.: I posted at the same time with Jeff

[EL34]

What do you think about the mock up power supply
It's only 1.5" x 2" which means that it can fit on the sides of an amp chassis

[kagliostro]

I like the idea of mount the PS on the sides of the amp,the smaller it is the easy is to mount it also if there is low room

if I can say something I would like to see two holes as to be used for a radial capacitor in substitution of the axial capacitor (only if required) and a place to connect a small capacitor in parallel with the output (near the 7805)

K

[EL34]

You mean like this?

Axial or radial for the big cap
Optional radial for the output cap

The holes and traces would be there for all those choices