1959 Deluxe 5E3

[plexi50]

Ahhhh! I dont know what to say so i wont say much. Simply unbelievable. I have it and i dont believe it so were even. Completely untouched and never resoldered any where. Tube chart and all. The tweed is gone. Who cares! Jensen C12N. Sounds wonderful. Bias is spot on. So quiet you cant tell it is on when it is. Pretty weird day.

The caps are dated 1958. The pots are dated 1959. The speaker im not sure of the code just yet but will be looking for the speaker data chart  

[Platefire]

I won't wake you up because this must be a dream--a crate for a original 5E3!!! Could have a ball re-tweeding that. IMHO tweed is more forgiving than tolex except for matching up the stripes part. BTW-Congradulations! Platefire 

[DummyLoad]

nice score.

--DL

[Danskman]

Congrats! Nice deal!
Mmmh, it seems there's some woodwork and tweed work to be done, with this guy... Me, I would just buy a new cab and swap the beast, keeping the old one, just in case.
Best regards,
Danskman

[rzenc]

I traded a Crate amp for it. Simply unbelievable.

 

Wow!

Best Regards

R.

[SoundmasterG]

Thats a great deal and a nice amp, even if it does need tweed! I'm surprised the guy wanted to trade it for a Crate of all things! I don't think the speaker is original...it should have a P12Q I think.

I have a 1956 original 5E3 that I got for $250 back about 5 years ago. I had repaired the amp for the owner previously and he wanted to get rid of it and a 1957 Duo Sonic that was also all original. All the original Astron caps leaked DC pretty badly and the electrolytics had physically leaked in the chassis, so they all had to be replaced, except the mica cap in the tone stack. I gave them to him in a bag and told him to keep them, and of course he threw them away. The amp was also missing the original speaker and had a Radio Shack one in it, but the tweed was A+ shape on the cabinet. So I found a reconed 1956 Jensen P12R (probably what was original in this amp) and it is good to go. It has one side of the heater string grounded stock, so it hums a little more than I would like when up a bit, but it sounds great. I will probably clone it though and sell the original since they are bringing a fair coin these days. I keep saying that but its been 5 years and I still have it. I did sell the Duo Sonic about 6 months after I got it for $1500 (about what they are worth) since it was a short scale guitar and I just couldn't handle the short scale length. The guitar was fantastic though and now I understand the vintage guitar thing....

Enjoy your amp!

Greg

[plexi50]

Yes i now see that the speaker was changed long ago. I found a site that has some pretty cool info: And yes i just woke up and it is really here. Just freaky man. Im definatley going to flip it and im not so certain that i want to do anything to the cab. Im not greedy.
The Chassis & untouched parts is what blows my mind


http://hardway.quantum-foam.com/5E3.html
The Jensen P12R was a low-power speaker, which added greatly to the tonal properties of the amp, but also gave it a tendency to blow up when pushed too hard for too long.  Many Deluxes from the 1950s have their speakers replaced with P12Qs or P12Ns

[Willabe]

WOW! Very nice Plexi.

   When did Leo switch over to shielded OT's? I thought all 5E3's had open frame OT's?


                Brad      

[HotBluePlates]

Given the "5" for the year on the OT, and the different part #, it is also probably a later replacement. However, it does appear to be an old replacement, maybe around the time the speaker was replaced.

Regardless, this is a good amp to use to check voltages, as the PT appears consistent to original amps. We always wind up having to go back to earlier Deluxe schematics to guess correct d.c. voltages for the 5E3.

[Willabe]

Regardless, this is a good amp to use to check voltages, as the PT appears consistent to original amps. We always wind up having to go back to earlier Deluxe schematics to guess correct d.c. voltages for the 5E3.

Yeah ain't that funny? One of the most popular DIY amp builds and that schemo has no voltages on it.           


                 Brad     

[Ed_Chambley]

Nice!  I like doing tweed.  O got an old ibanez solid state amp, you wanna trade?

[eleventeen]

Incredible trade. Very nicely done!

[smackoj]

How soon 'til your conscience makes you feel guilty on that a** kickin' ya done there? reminds me of the famous mafioso quote, "like takin' candy from a baby" 

 

[plexi50]

I feel so quilty im not say in any thin--------------------------

[Ed_Chambley]

A deal is a deal.  Unless the guy was mentally challenged, no reason to feel guilty.  That is a great deal and I am envious.  I love old fender amps.

[archaos]

Awesome amp, congrats !

[SleepLess]

Oh my... A Crate for this? Really? 

[plexi50]

I have a bad habbit of mentioning what i pay when i find something that is just not that easy to come by. I do this because i am in disbelief that anyone would not take the time to restore it and get top dollar for it. I havent mentioned what i payed for the 1954 5D6A Bassman because i dont want to rub it in or upset anyone. Im sitting here looking at both of them and as far as im concerned right now they really arent here. They will sit until i feel like it's safe to approach them. To me this is the equivilent of hitting the lottery twice in 2 days. To freaky

[punkykatt]

Look at it this way:  One man`s junk is another man`s treasure.   As long as he is happy and you are happy its a win win.  I`m happy for you.

Punky

[Platefire]

Shame on you for at least 30 minutes!!!    Then when that is done------------------

 Celebrate

 

[plexi50]

Look at it this way:  One man`s junk is another man`s treasure.   As long as he is happy and you are happy its a win win.  I`m happy for you.

Punky

Thanks Punky. It is what it is.

I have a conflict going on here regarding the 5E3 Narrow Panel OT specs. Ampwares info says 15 watt output.

Specs on replacement OT for the Deluxe 5E3 on every site i have looked say 20-25 watts output.

This OT was definatley replaced early in it's life as HBP pointed out. I have noticed that the original stock OT looks a bit bigger as the mounting holes also indicate. Could the 15 watt rating be more like 20 watts for the 5E3? The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom. The replaced OT on this chassis (022913) from what i have found was:
Used In: Push-Pull Blonde & Blackface Princeton**, Blackface & Silverface Princeton Reverb**, Champ II**, Super Champ*

My 15 watt Princeton reverb kicks butt and blows this amp away. It has a (022913) 15 watt OT in it

My caps,resistors and bias are all spot on as well as a dead even plate voltage of 360VDC per power tube

Pleasing volume just isnt enough to me. Though i have never heard a real 1959 5E3 either/

Ok Platefire i will go sit in the corner for 30 minutes. Can i smoke?

[Platefire]

You can smoke as long as all the smoke is captured in a vent hood and transferred in an airtight evacuation chamber. You know about that second hand smoke! The only other option is an electronic cigerette.

Truthfully us old amp heads place a lot more value on old vintage amps than other folks or should I say some musicians. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I bought an old GA40 Les Paul amp for $200.00 in very simalar condition--bare wood, backplate missing, circuit exposed. I patched the dents in the wood with carpenter puddy, built a new backplate to cover the back of the chassis, re-tweeded it, new  oxblood grill cloth and even built a Gibson grill logo out of vinyl base cove. Was a very rewarding project. Platefire

[plexi50]

Your amp looks great!
Exactamundo! The fun of making an old amp come alive again is what turns me on. I havent personally retweeded a cab before. Thats sorta out of my realm but i may have to learn how. It is very rewarding. I like to learn how to do doing different things from time to time. Smoking is BS and i know it. If figured if i told you i had an electronic cigarette it would be 1 hour in the corner

[punkykatt]

Your welcome,     The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.

Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?.  Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?

[HotBluePlates]

I had a '55 Tremolux once, which is an older brother to this amp, with tremolo.

That wasn't a loud amp either. Loud enough for recording and lower volume situations, but would be overshadowed by my 5F4 Super clone. So what you're hearing may be normal, especially if you're very used to 40-50w amps.

[plexi50]

I think my hearing is playing a big part in this. I played 50-100 watt amps for so long that my hearing is dark and not bright anymore. If i make a cup with my hands back behind my ears i can hear things on my stereo & turnatable i cant normally hear any more. I thought at one point of making a pair of strap on shells to see how much better i would hear. Ok, i know the strap on thing doesnt sound right but thats how it is. 

[plexi50]

Your welcome,     The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.

Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?.  Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?

punkykatt i am getting the voltages together and will make them avaibable later today

[Fresh_Start]

Your welcome,     The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.

Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?.  Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?

punkykatt i am getting the voltages together and will make them avaibable later today

Nice grab!  Thanks for sharing the pics.  We're all looking forward to seeing the voltages.

Cheers,

Chip

[plexi50]

Here are the voltages using Dougs tube chart. I have a problem i think. V2 pin#8 voltage reading shows 021 volts. My meter is good. The 1.5k,56k resistors are good. I see Archos and Steve both have roughly +40 volts at this point

Voltages were taken after a 20 minute warm up

http://www.el34world.com/charts/valve/ValveData.php?e=view&f=14613

[sluckey]

The 1.5k,56k resistors are good.

Please recheck both 56K resistors. Looking at your pic, the 56K on the cathode appears to be green/blue/yellow (560K). The plate resistor looks normal, ie, green/blue/orange. It's probably just a camera or computer monitor thing, but worth verifying again.

Oh, the 68K input resistors look like 680K also. Surely it's just a camera thing. They look original to me.

[plexi50]

The 1.5k,56k resistors are good.

Please recheck both 56K resistors. Looking at your pic, the 56K on the cathode appears to be green/blue/yellow (560K). The plate resistor looks normal, ie, green/blue/orange. It's probably just a camera or computer monitor thing, but worth verifying again.

Oh, the 68K input resistors look like 680K also. Surely it's just a camera thing. They look original to me.

Yeah my camera or should i say light is not very good. The color bands are orange and the 56k resistors read 56k. I cant think of what would cause a low voltage at that point other than a not so good tube in V2. I have tried 4 different tubes so thats not the issue.
The .1 coupling cap isnt leaking but the 220k resistors are reading 260k  

[plexi50]

Took a voltage reading again using a different DVM i have. Beckman DVM. On auto that test point V2 pin 8 is fluxuating up and down like a vibrato pulse between +18 & 19 mv. Constantly. It never becomes idle

[tubeswell]

pin 8 is fluxuating up and down like a vibrato pulse between +18 & 19 mv. Constantly. It never becomes idle.

Quite possibly on the borderline of where the meter flips its reading from 18 to 19V. have you got the meter on the hundreds of volts setting or the tens of volts setting?

Nice score by the way. Very tin-arsey. 

[HotBluePlates]

Could you also post the voltages of the B+ nodes as well (at the filter caps). If the other amps had higher B+ voltage, they might also have more current through the split-load tube, and therefore more voltage dropped across the plate and cathode loads.

If the voltage drop across the plate load is similar to the 19-23v you're measuring across the cathode load, you're fine. You might also measure the 56kΩ plate and cathode loads and the 1.5kΩ cathode resistor to check they're not way out of tolerance.

If voltage drops are similar and resistances are +/-10% you should be good to go.

[sluckey]

Your tube chart shows 20 VOLTS. Now you are measuring 18 milliVolts. Volts, millivolts, which is it? That's a huge difference!

[plexi50]

Your tube chart shows 20 VOLTS. Now you are measuring 18 milliVolts. Volts, millivolts, which is it? That's a huge difference!

The plate and cathode load resistors are dead on there values of 1,5k & 56K. My fluke mete is reading every other voltage in the amp just fine. But when i probe pin 8 i get no decimal and it just shows 019 - 020. When i use the Beckman DVM on auto it show a clear + positive symbol of 16-18 mv volts that runs up and down. No volts. Thats milla volts. Not volts. Here is the 5E3 schematic that i doodled with yesteday morning and all the voltages.

Reposting schematic in few

[sluckey]

Measure resistance from pin 8 (directly on tube socket) to chassis.

[plexi50]

Resistance from pin 8 to chassis is 62.5k. Going to lift .1 cap lead and see what happens with resistance.

No change. 56k yesterday now reading 60K

[sluckey]

OK. Now measure resistance between V2 pin 6 and rectifier V5 pin 8. Probes directly on tube sockets. Shouls be about 82K.

[plexi50]

Changed old 56kr reading 60k out for new CC 56k. Resistance between V2 pin 6 and recto pin 8 is 86k

[sluckey]

OK. One of your meters is lying to you about the cathode voltage. Please find out which one. You must know what the cathode voltage is. If that Beckman was telling the truth your amp would be totally silent. If the Fluke is telling the truth your amp might not be as loud as you would like, but it would make a fairly decent sound.

FAA and the National Airspace System depend on Fluke.

[plexi50]

Yes i just compared the Fluke and Beckman. Look at the Beckman display MV at one point. Yes they are both showing voltage in milla volts. The voltage is +023 but still showing mv. Displays should read +23.0. This is weird

Is +40.0 volts the optimal biasing for V2 cathode of this amplifier and what we are shooting for??

[birt]

they both say 23mV 

[plexi50]

they both say 23mV  

Well yeah thats what i mean. I dont have a decimal point on either meter that indicates 23.0 volts. Its messing with my head. I mean the meters woudlnt read the cathode voltages of V1 & V2A and then not read +23.0 VDC on either meter. I need a Bubba soda

[plexi50]

Got it! Tried 4 different tubes last week in and out but made no difference. All that was left was to check the 8 pin socket for pin retention. All pins looked good and tight. Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO!   Thanks to you all! FAA approved
Once again another mystery of the ampcog solved.
Now the volume is kicking and louder than i thought possable from this amp. It sounds fantastic!
Now you can understand why i was so dumfounded at the little bland and tiny sound it was producing. AMEN!
Now i understand why they sell for so much online. Amazing cleans and amazing breakup. Wowza!

Final schematic voltages after 45 minutes of warm up.
 

[HotBluePlates]

Awesome! That was sharp thinking, and good perseverance keeping at it until you found the issue!

Again, please update your voltage chart (if you haven't already), and post voltages of B+ nodes.

[plexi50]

Thanks HBP. Voltage chart posted. I think i have to keep this amp regardless of the money it would return. I have never heard such clean and breakup in any amp like this one.  The volume and tone pots gets you anywhere you want to go from sweet shimmering clean to 2 more levels of breakup. It slowly breaks up,not all at once. When you reach 12 on the dial it is still articulate even through the breakup. Sorry but this puppy is not for sale. The 1954 5D6A Bassman i have on the other hand is more amp than i will ever need so it will go after i finish it's restoration. Man you cant build a 5E3 clone and get this tone. JMHO

[Platefire]

Yea Haw!!!!!

[Willabe]

Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO!  

The socket pins?


              Brad     

[plexi50]

Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO!  

The socket pins?


              Brad    

Yeah Willabe of all things it was pin 8 of V2 socket. Pins looked like they were nice and tight but the tube was not making any electrical connection on pin 8 cathode. Never thought to clean them first. I even wiggled the tubes i was trying in that positon all last week and it never gave a crackle or hint of a bad connection