Wizard is too bright what to try now.

[SLW]

I have decided that the Wizard is too bright for me.  I am looking for other things to try.  The choices are overwhelming.  I know this a wide open topic full of personal preference but I want to hear what you use.  I have been tinkering with tweed-ish amps lately.  I will play humbuckers and single coils through it.

Thanks
SLW

[SILVERGUN]

Here's some help that was given to me a while back in this thread:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14160.0
Good luck, and check this out: http://www.eminence.com/guitar-bass/tone-center/

Eminence Texas Heat & Swamp Thang Speaker Demo

Eminence Speaker Demo: The Governor & Man O War

[Geezer]

I have been using the Texas Heat for a good while now and am very pleased with it.

Have been kicking around the idea of trying a Swamp Thang, and also a WGS ET65 (Warehouse Guitar Speakers clone of a Celestion G12-65, which the Dumble guys seem to like....fairly cheap to try at $69) just to see if there's any better to be had   ....it's never ending  

G

[SILVERGUN]

  ....it's never ending  

Yeah, I hear that...
I wound up getting a good deal on 2 Cele. G12H-30 (70th aniv.) and they are very bright and punchy,,,so I wound up grabbing a used Buddah Fat 12 (more bass'y and thick).....and because I was filling a 2 X 12 cabinet, it worked out very well,,, I am OK for now.......

For now

[Geezer]

Yeah, it's part of the sickness.....

At least I'm not that way with women....been with the same girl for 32 years 

G

[SLW]

speakers are cheaper than women...

Lets hear some more of your favorite speakers

[SILVERGUN]

Lets hear some more of your favorite speakers

One of the guys on that thread was really happy with a certain Weber model for his Tweed Overdrive build...
Weber model 12a125a (maybe still a little bright though)
Also, Eminence Red Fang seems to be a winner (for rolled off highs), if you've got an extra $250 burning a hole in your pocket

Weber's website does a greta job of describing tone, and offering options to customize their models

Most guys that I've spoken to who run higher gain Marshall'ish amps agree that the Vintage 30 is a great choice, with huge lows and a upper mid hump that gives a "vocal" quality (I played those for years),,,,,,,,,but I know you were saying TWEED'ish

[smackoj]

I have settled in on a good speaker that can be had in the reasonable price range. I'm not sure of the model number but I'll try to describe them. Fender speaker found in both 10 and 12 inch size with ceramic mags. I call them the 'blue label' speakers. I found a pair of 10" in a SS fender princeton chorus amp (guessing it was ca. 1992?). took the chassis out and play a couple diff. lower watt heads thru them....they sound very good every time. A friend of mine just bought a fender princeton reverb II which is mid-80s and it has a 'blue label' 12" in it. Fully broken in and sounds fantastic with that 20 watt Rivera era amp.

I would rec. either size and there's plenty of them out there for the taking.

 

[Ed_Chambley]

I have many speaker, but not too many.  You can never have too many.  It is according to the amp what I use, but I mostly use separate cabs with heads.

For 10" the Celestion Gold in alnico and Vintage 30.  The 10 inch gold sounds like a 12 inch speaker.

  I have never been happy with weber in 10" except a Super Reverb I have with 2 alnicos 20 watters on top and 2 ceramic 20 watts on bottom.  I have 3 Super reverbs and this one sounds the best to me.

In 12" I have a 2 12's cabinet, birch, with a silver bell and a blue dog alnico.  Best vintage tone cabinet I have ever heard.  For more modern sounds, I use Vintage 30's because they are just hard to beat.

Not a fan of Warehouse speakers or Eminence, I guess that is why I don't have any purchased cabinets.  They are all either made by me or Jeff at JDesigns.

For 15's, it is JBL all the way.

Listening to them on a computer is the best way to purchase the wrong speaker.

[SILVERGUN]

Listening to them on a computer is the best way to purchase the wrong speaker.

That is just a great quote!

Thanks for that Ed  ......nothing like a little straight talk to straighten guys out

[Ed_Chambley]

Listening to them on a computer is the best way to purchase the wrong speaker.

That is just a great quote!

Thanks for that Ed  ......nothing like a little straight talk to straighten guys out

Did not mean any harm to anyone, but speakers sound different wherever you put them.  It is a good way to hear that there are differences, but there will be differences by cabinet, carpet, hard surfaces.  If you can borrow a cab from a friend to audition them it is best.  Believe me, I did not learn this without wasting lots of money.  Buy for $300 and sell on ebay for $100.  Not a good business plan.

[SILVERGUN]

Did not mean any harm to anyone,

Being honest should never appear as trying to do harm....

I really did just LOVE that quote!!

It's the truth, and I didn't really think about it that way before....you can watch all of the demo videos in the world,,,,wait for USPS,,,
only to be disappointed,,,and then back to the drawing board

[jojokeo]

Nice, I actually like Eminence speakers but most of the time end up going with either Celestion or Scumback. Ed is absolutely correct in that not only is computer listening the way to get it wrong, but also your amp, guitar, room, style, and other factors like your own ears have to play into this also. THE BEST way to compare speakers is to switch between two speakers on the fly using a foot switch. It is THE way to compare apples to apples. You have no time in between so you hear and feel the many subtleties going back and forth as often as needed. I can't recommend this enough when choosing & deciding.

On a bright amp for 10's I like Celestion Gold, Tone Tubby, & Red Fangs, otherwise I like the Weber Blue Pups or Celestion Vintage 10. For that good ol' Tweed woodiness all arounder and of the Weber ribbed curved seemed speakers are the shiznit. Lastly, I have an Eminence Ramrod in an EL84 amp that just kills. It has a fuller midrange but also all the highs & lows plus super efficient. It's one of those speakers that for whatever reason and no matter what guitar or amp I play it through it...it just makes me keep playing and keep smiling no matter what I throw at it.

12" speakers seem to have a lot more variety and variances but I actually really like the Wizard speaker. Maybe the one here wasn't fully broken in or it was used on a bright amp & guitar? I've really like the Scumback H75 PVC paper voice coil & the black back H75, Red Fang again is a winner along w/ Celestion Blue and Heritage G12H 55hz. A great all arounder is the Weber 12A125A 30w too - competes with all the classics. My buddy has a V30 in a BFDR of all amps but sounds amazing in that amp.

*I heard through one of the guys at Eminence that the 12" "Tonker" may be the closest thing to a 10" Ramrod - Has anyone played a Tonker which can chime in with their impressions???

[SLW]

I also agree that the proof is in hearing with my own ears.  I only have one cab at this time to put a speaker in.  I will eventually have another that I can A/B with but for now, advice from the fine members of this forum is what I will rely on.  I have been using the Wizard for over a year so I think it should be broken in by now.  I used it with the TOS and thought it was a little bright.  I have an 18W TubeMeister that I thought it was too bright.  I have been using it wit a 5F6A -ish amp ( cathode bias 6V6's) and it seems very bright.  With the strat I can barely add a little bit of the bright channel.  With the humbucker guitar I can add a little more.  The tele will make your hair stand up.

I am not really committed to getting a specific tone except one that sounds good to me.  So I ask for your opinions because I respect what you guys have to say.  You have built more amps than I and been through more speakers than I.

[SILVERGUN]

So I ask for your opinions because I respect what you guys have to say.  You have built more amps than I and been through more speakers than I.

Jojo is really a great example of a guy who knows his speakers.......I'm giving my opinion based on very limited experience 

His advice is very solid and backed by a great ear and years of hands on experience....

If I needed to try a speaker I would fly to Ca. and look him up..........he probably makes a mean pasta dish too

[jojokeo]

I would fly to Ca. and look him up..........he probably makes a mean pasta dish too

lol, you're always welcome to enjoy the weather, pool, micro brews, & good music except I pride myself on my BBQ'ing skillz & knowing my hot zones using it 3 -4 times/week on average. I'm lucky to have some great friends easily as good too. We'll all go on a camping surf trip along the coast and eat at least as good if not better than when we're at home.

[SLW]

That does sound like a good time indeed.  I wish I was there.  It is 15 deg outside today in upstate NY.  I wish I was someplace warmer.  I know the guys from Canada likely have it worse but it is too cold for me.  I am from NC and my blood is thin.

[Glennjeff]

SLW

I'm new here but do have a fair bit of sound engineering / guitar playing experience. Have been pouring all over this site, and the rest of the web,  looking for a candidate speaker for a TOS II CF.

There are lots of speaker shootouts on the web, all eminence speakers have clean, heavy and OD samples at their site and I'm listening through good studio monitors in a treated room. I'm listening for an even tonality across the spectrum, no big peaks or dips, a sound that the mixdown engineer can EQ to her hearts content. I accept that is not an ideal way to make a choice but what is a boy to do.

After spending several hours doing comparisons yesterday it was either Eminence CannabisRex or Celestion G12H-30.
tubenit likes CannabisRex and he designed the TOS 2 CF, says something.

The Wizard is a really bright speaker.
It is a very personal and subjective thing of course and I'm looking for a recording amp/speaker.

All the best.

[jojokeo]

Here's is my general philosophy on "brightness":
1) It is the first thing/part of the spectrum to get filtered out similar to light waves also. Low bass notes travel furthest, high treble notes travel the least. At a given distance the first thing to go is high end.
2) High end is easily reduced and not easily produced if not there in the first place.
3) W/out high end, tone turns dark & muddy. When this occurs you lose a lot of great qualities and subtleties such as touch sensitivity, clarity, snappiness, crispness, the tone wood of your instrument just doesn't sound out, harmonics & overtones can be muffled or lost, etc...like playing flatwound or really old strings or it's also been given the tonal "blanket" characteristic. Some people like hemp cones because they are inherently darker & less bright but (w/ my Tubbies), even when I turn Treble full up, it can only give up what it's got but nothing more. They have great tone but just no high end and I lose out on having those qualities I named earlier. Volume comes into play here too but in the end it bugs me to the point I end up changing them out. I have a love/hate relationship with them. Now there is the other end of the spectrum and such a thing as too brittle & piercing of a speaker but they are fewer and farther between such as a few of the new Italian Jensens where they can be extremely harsh all the way around, not only the brightness issue.

This is why I voice amps w/ an agreeable speaker to achieve the above. A new speaker can be very harsh but even a broken in speaker can be harsh w/ the Treble set too high. So, turn the Treble down a bit, put a piece of fabric over the speaker grill temporarily, use a beam blocker, etc... In a concrete warehouse, treble reflects around easily but in a crowed nightclub or bar w/ carpet & bodies everywhere acting as sound absorbers you'll need to turn it up more. But again, w/ a dark speaker and/or amp you can only get so far and your range is limited (reduced). One of my bandmate's BFDR can be extremely (inherently) bright if the Treble is even up to "5" but he sets it to 3 or 4 and it sounds awesome. Point is, range is good. Find your sweet spot by adjusting your knobs correctly for a given situation.

One more thing to not forget - the guitar. A Les Paul is very dark sounding in general. But paired up w/ a brighter amp and/or speaker can be "golden" and really wake it up with some superior tone & great qualities. A dark amp and dark guitar = no fun or personal enjoyment...for me. I can play jazz a bit but still don't prefer this tone and sound. I'll maybe turn down the tone knobs & the amp's Treble for the once in a while occasions needed but then again it's taken a lot of time learning to play not just 7ths & 9ths but maj & min 9s, 6ths & minor 6ths, 7b9, m7b5, diminished, 13th chords...I want those to sound clear & ring out from the accurate fingerings I've worked hard to develop w/ a good technique. Not have them be muffled and drowned out.

But in the end c'est la vie, to each his own. Everyone's at a differenct place in their musical life and what's liked currently can change in a few years. Whatta ya gonna do??? Build more amps and sell/buy/trade more gear.   

[SLW]

Thanks for that Jojokeo.  I do appreciate your philosophy.  As I tinker with this amp I want to do the same as you - have some range of tonal adjustment so that it works well with the different instruments I play.  I am trying to work out this part of my system. 

My workshop that I work is in my basement with a concrete floor.  Perhaps that is part of the issue.  The cab I have has a removable back panel on it so I can try open versus closed back.  I tinker with the amp, hook up the speaker and test.

The G12H-30 has come up a couple of times so I think I will try one of those or the clone of it from WGS.  The Weber 12A125A 30w seems like a good deal and a strikes my fancy for some reason.

Buy/sell/trade more gear sound good to me. There is always room for one more.   

[SILVERGUN]

SLW,
Careful with the G12H 30.....I got 2 recently and although they do sound good, I would definitely describe them on the brighter side....

My first impression was "bright and punchy',,,,,so I'm just letting you know that it might not be "the one" to fix your brightness issue

I mixed it with a complete opposite speaker in a 2x12 and it worked, but if I was using a 1x12 it wouldn't of worked for me

There are 2 descriptions of this speaker from Celestion and I think the one that describes it as warm and syrupy is off the mark...IMHO

Provides serious attitude to soft amp tones, easily cutting through loud stage levels for chord work and imparting a hard edge to single notes
OR
Loud and proud thanks to its heavy magnet structure, the G12H provides a fusion of the Vintage 30 and the Greenback characteristics, producing a thick, warm and syrupy sound while still retaining a tight and focused bottom end.

I do agree with the one that says it "imparts a hard edge to single notes"

[rzenc]

I have been tinkering with tweed-ish amps lately.  I will play humbuckers and single coils through it.

What are you trying to achieve? blues?country?rock? clean? dirty?

I believe you got to have this clear on your mind...I have never heard a speaker that was able to do whatever asked and sounded they way we expected. All have merits and flaws.



I'm finishing another 5E9-A. Tried it with many speakers. Best so far: WGS 15" AlNiCo...huge sounding speaker.. I know AlNiCo has high price tags but it just made it sounded how it should sound 

My own 5E3 has a WGS 12" Reaper 55Hz....kicking ass speaker! fantastic bottom end but I think they are a bit too compressed on the highs...some minor tweaking on preamp and wow....

I must say that I really dig WGS speakers   On one of my own designs, RZC Klein Baphomet, another WGS, 12" Reaper HP is a winner! solid and tight. It cuts through the mix. Not overly bright, not overwhelming on bass...just makes it sound like it should....

Eminence Cannabis Rex is an all-time favorite too. I believe it's one of the most controlled speakers I have ever heard. Just has everything you might want without putting nothing aside. A true champion!

If you are into heavy and agressive distortion tones, I would tell you to try EV's. Specially EV 12" BLS... a special secret weapon, however not for the faint of heart

Hope this helps!

Best Regards

R.

[SLW]

Those are good points rzenc.  This amp is turning into a rock amp so I am going in that direction.  Nothing too aggressive and heavy.  I am more of a classic rock sort of guy.  It started as a 5F6A bassman with cathode bias 6V6's.  It is closer to Plexi values now with cathode biased 6V6's.  Nothing ground breaking but fun to play. 

I contacted WGS and Daniel recommended the regular 30W Reaper.  Think I am going to give it a try.  You can't beat the price.  I have not pulled the trigger yet because I am still mulling over the Weber previously mentioned.  I am not afraid of a bright tone but I don't want too bright.  It is all fun.

[Ed_Chambley]

I would fly to Ca. and look him up..........he probably makes a mean pasta dish too

lol, you're always welcome to enjoy the weather, pool, micro brews, & good music except I pride myself on my BBQ'ing skillz & knowing my hot zones using it 3 -4 times/week on average. I'm lucky to have some great friends easily as good too. We'll all go on a camping surf trip along the coast and eat at least as good if not better than when we're at home.

I'm in, sounds like a blast.

[Ed_Chambley]

Nice, I actually like Eminence speakers but most of the time end up going with either Celestion or Scumback. Ed is absolutely correct in that not only is computer listening the way to get it wrong, but also your amp, guitar, room, style, and other factors like your own ears have to play into this also. THE BEST way to compare speakers is to switch between two speakers on the fly using a foot switch. It is THE way to compare apples to apples. You have no time in between so you hear and feel the many subtleties going back and forth as often as needed. I can't recommend this enough when choosing & deciding.

On a bright amp for 10's I like Celestion Gold, Tone Tubby, & Red Fangs, otherwise I like the Weber Blue Pups or Celestion Vintage 10. For that good ol' Tweed woodiness all arounder and of the Weber ribbed curved seemed speakers are the shiznit. Lastly, I have an Eminence Ramrod in an EL84 amp that just kills. It has a fuller midrange but also all the highs & lows plus super efficient. It's one of those speakers that for whatever reason and no matter what guitar or amp I play it through it...it just makes me keep playing and keep smiling no matter what I throw at it.

12" speakers seem to have a lot more variety and variances but I actually really like the Wizard speaker. Maybe the one here wasn't fully broken in or it was used on a bright amp & guitar? I've really like the Scumback H75 PVC paper voice coil & the black back H75, Red Fang again is a winner along w/ Celestion Blue and Heritage G12H 55hz. A great all arounder is the Weber 12A125A 30w too - competes with all the classics. My buddy has a V30 in a BFDR of all amps but sounds amazing in that amp.

*I heard through one of the guys at Eminence that the 12" "Tonker" may be the closest thing to a 10" Ramrod - Has anyone played a Tonker which can chime in with their impressions???

I have a Tonker, well actually 2 in a pine cab with a pine baffle.  Fine sounding speaker for cleaner sounds.  For some reason when you kick in overdrive it seems a little loose in the bass area which is surprising since they are 12's.  Running it with a Tweed Bassman it really sounds nice, but with my plexi and JTM45 it is a nightmare.  It seems to have a weird hard to explain overtone.  Basically it does not do chuncky well and really disappoints if using something like a 335.  With a les paul it is just ok.  Tele and Strat with the bass cut a little seems to work best.

[Ed_Chambley]

Looks like Jojo and me have a lot in common.  We both have too many speakers, but can you have too many?  What I do is buy them off craigslist, the whole cabinet.  Some guys will take a 4, 12's cab made crappy and think putting great speakers in will make a great cabinet.  Oh, how wrong.  I am gald they do it tho.  I bought a 2, 12 with greenbacks last weekend for $50.  Guy said he did not like the tone and bought a new cabinet.  It is crap to.  Anyway, the speakers were not even broke in.  Pulled the carpet off the cab and it was built out of MDF.

I couldn't tell you how many speakers I have, but there are many things to consider.  I think the first one is closed or open back.  I don't care if the specs say for open or closed back, this is not possible for the best sound.  Then there is ported or sealed.  Partially open or a mixture of woods.  The cabinet has just as much influence as the speaker does.  Build an oversized cabinet, say 24" x 24" and make it 16" deep closed.  Put a 12 inch vintage 30 in it and it will sound completely different than putting it in an open back cab the size of a Tweed Deluxe.  Lots of things to consider and it is very expensive just buying something.

There are a few speakers I like in everything, but as mentioned I may have to do some tweaking.  My can't go wrong list:  Celestion Blue 12, Celestion Gold 10 (the best sounding 10 I have ever heard and paired with a vintage 30 ceramic 10 is just a great combination).  Altec 417 is a great speaker all around.  JBL 120.  I have never used a Weber Alnico that I did not like, but thinking vintage tone here.  I am not a fan of Eminence speakers, but that is just opinion.  Many love them. Every one I have ever tried came back out and were sold.  EVM 12L sounds good with any head I have and are really balanced and the only speaker I pair with the same.

I also mainly play clean and had a friend ask me why I use Vintage 30 since I play clean and it is because they sound great clean.  JBL is the only speaker I like in a 15".  My least favorite are the new Jensens, old CTS and Utah's.  I hate to say it since I am such a fender fan, but I don't care a lot for any Jensen.  Some are ok, but I have always found something I like better.  I have never warmed up to any of the Warehouse speakers, but I will say they do a great job in high gain territory.  I have a few old Black Widows which are great and cheap to get.  GM12 Greenbacks to me sound great in a 1, 12, pine cab, birch baffle in an amp with 15 to 20 watts.  Hemp is for making rope, not speakers.  If you are into death metal it is probably ok.

I do not understand why speakers are called British and American especially since so many are becoming Chinese.  I did get one of those Weber Alnico's Slucky used in his radio conversion per his recommendation.  Great sounding little speaker.  I have one in a modified champ I used at a jam session miked up last weekend.  My bass player laughed when I came in with it, but he did not laugh long.  They never know what I will be coming with.  Man that thing sounded great with my Black Beauty.

And finally I have used HiFi speakers which a lot of Altec and JBL's are with good results.  I was reconing some infinities for a guys home theater and before I put them back in his cabinets, I put them in a pine 2, 12 cabinet and they sounded very good I just don't think they would stand up to a lot of distortion.  Maybe they would, I just don't know and I did not want to blow a speaker I just fixed.

[SLW]

Just a follow up.  I ordered a WGS Reaper.  It is their version of a G12H30.  It is definitely not as bright as the Wizard.  I have played it for a few hours now and like it much better.  I have been using it open backed.  Anybody want to buy a used Wizard? 

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks for the update...
I have tamed the high end in my Wreck and definitely like the G12H30 better myself now also....It's still bright to me, but it's good to know that it's noticeably less bright than the Wizard...
I also put one in a 1x12 closed back that I just built (solid pine), and ran a Champ head through it and got some compliments 

I still had to combine it with a lower freq. voiced companion in my 2x12 to fill out the bottom for me, but this speaker definitely has a little something to it......."top end definition" I would say,,,,which also brings out some richness in the lows (nice harmonics)

[jojokeo]

SLW - does your amp circuit have any treble bleed caps anywhere? Do you have a schematic of what you're using? I'm curious at analyzing the circuit to determine if there's anything which may be helping it to maybe being on the bright side in general?

[SLW]

SLW - does your amp circuit have any treble bleed caps anywhere? Do you have a schematic of what you're using? I'm curious at analyzing the circuit to determine if there's anything which may be helping it to maybe being on the bright side in general?

Yes.  While I use the speaker with a couple of other amps the one it is seeing the most use with is a cathode biased bassman-ish amp.  I have been tinkering with the amp for a few weeks now.  This is the schem as it sits now.  It is not set in stone and is a big experiment.  I was thinking about starting a new thread about it.  I am happy to have your input.  My goal is to use the 6v6's and have an amp that I can get good sounds out of with a variety of guitars.

[jojokeo]

Dude this is no "tinkering home brew design" it's simply a standard basic 6V6 cathode biased Plexi. If you use that bright channel, then there you go. Way too bright that way.

[SLW]

I hope that I did not give the impression that I had a new design.  That would be giving me too much credit.  To me tinkering is just playing around with something.  Designing and tinkering are very different in my opinion. 

Yes I agree that the bright channel is really bright.  I am interested in blending the channels together for different sounds.  I have always found your post helpful and respect what you have to say. 

What would you do to tone down the bright channel?

[jojokeo]

Hey, no offense intended or implied in any way SLW - just sayin' (and keepin things light). Those treble bleed caps keep the brightness going along "untamed" if you will. I would at first remove the cap paralleled w/ the 470k and listen. Then the one along the pot is subject to lowering or removing. Another "trick" is to put a series resistor between it and one of the associated lugs which gives you a "half way" sort of treble bleed. You can also parallel a resistor with the treble bleed cap too.

More things you can do is to change the circuit but at the same time not really changing it such as using split load resistors rather than voltage dividers (keeps same load line conditions the tube runs at but allows a signal drop similar to using voltage dividers but w/out the loss of high end you get from voltage dividers) or put a small cap across the current load resistor, or put a small cap across the tube socket from plate to cathode ala the Fender technique.

There's more but this is plenty to get you going if you want to experiment.