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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: OT blow speakers?  (Read 23866 times)

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Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2013, 12:11:16 pm »
Yes that is possible, and its also possible that then the oscillation is brought to the powersupply.
Nice if that is the problem...
Could somebody help me to find that transistor in the diagram?
Here a picture with the two transistors. The broken one is to the right, above the blue trim pot. The three cables with white isolation goes to tremolo foot switch. Edit: Black to tremolo, white to reverb.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99357732@N02/9361660898/
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 12:28:42 pm by Lennart »

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2013, 02:23:24 pm »
Maybe the reason the transister is not found in the diagram is that the diagram is for a later updated model. In the diagram is written: "On 2275 chassis, bright switch & 0.15 cap. are eliminated." There is a bright switch on this amp. And the chassis number is correct.
I tested the tremolo function. Both transistors is for tremolo. I took out them one at a time and the tremolo stopped. Would the tremolo work with a defct transistor? I mean, maybe the transistor I think is broken, is not. Zero ohm from base to collector schould indicate that the transistor is defect?

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2013, 02:51:58 pm »
Thank you. Iīm aware of all this.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2013, 03:42:41 pm »
Picture of OT upside down. Edit: what am I doing? This is the PT.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99357732@N02/9368500676/
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 04:05:08 pm by Lennart »

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2013, 05:06:34 pm »

When you say blown, torn speaker cones come to mind.  fried, suggests the coils went isup in smoke.
Fried or burned is the case.

Quote
  If you have a fried transistor, then some thing went wrong and fried it. 
 
Don't know if itīs fried. Broken doesnīt necissarily mean fried?

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2013, 04:44:44 am »


You can read/ see oscillation with Voltmeter on AC mode
OK. And what would cause this oscillation?

Try with a new Phase Inverter tube first

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2013, 07:01:01 am »
There is none. Itīs solid state.

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2013, 01:16:39 pm »
There is none. Itīs solid state.

Oups !! So it is the first schematic the good one  :BangHead:

Offline Dreams

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2013, 06:30:38 pm »
I get the impression that you do not, but just to be clear:

Do you have an oscilloscope and a suitable dummy load?

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2013, 08:18:17 pm »
An oscilloscop I can borrow, but donīt have a dummy load. How to make one? Order big resistors from somewhere?

Offline mat janssen

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2013, 04:49:27 am »
As load I use sometimes an old iron.
And when it gets too hot I put the old  iron in a bucket of water. (not too much water).

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2013, 05:38:55 am »
I have an iron wich measures 33 ohms. And a 200 W light bulb 19.5 ohms. And five 4 ohms car speakers.
What can I do with this collection?  :smiley:
One alternative Iīm thinking of is to swap all electrolytes, 8 pcs, and then test the amp through a 2X12 cabinet witch i do not use. If the speakers are fried, I swap the OT. (is "swap" a correct word here? Iīm  Swedish..) Would that be something?
With a oscilloscop, what would the procedure be?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 05:50:40 am by Lennart »

Offline mat janssen

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2013, 06:53:22 am »
Use the iron and the lightbulb in parallel.
It is not the max power, but if it oscillates, you can see it, and measure it.

Offline Glennjeff

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2013, 06:58:23 am »
Lennart,

If you are going to replace parts at random, you might be there for a while. Although replacing the electrolytic filter caps is probably OK, they are starting to age.

First off. The schematics you referenced is actually for 2 amps. One with tube PI and one with SS driver. I take it we are looking at the first schematic on that page that you listed.


Two of those 200 watt light bulbs wired in parallel should, but may not, do the job of dummy load, set the output impedance of amp to 8 ohms.. Solder some leads to them.

You will need an oscilloscope to properly test for oscillation. Most multimeters can't reliably measure anything above 500Hz.

Check the whole circuit board for signs of bad solder joints first. You can see bad ones with a magnifying glass: crystalline, powdery, discoloured, appearance of wire not actually glued to blob of solder, microscopic cracks between solder blob and circuit board, etc.

Really, you need test gear, like signal generator and oscilloscope to tackle a problem like this.

First task is to make sure the poweramp section is working OK. Disconnect R47 and apply 1 volt RMS sine, square or triangle wave signal to pin 2 of IC 8. Do you get a nice replica of that across the dummy load, or does it sound OK with a sacrificial speaker system. If yes then wait until it farts out and then test, or punch it really hard a few times to see if that causes bangs or pops in the sound (bang it with a rubber hammer if you have delicate hands),  and so on and so forth.......

« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 07:01:48 am by Glennjeff »

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2013, 07:22:11 am »
Thanks!
But I think it can be hard to measure anything when that "Something" turns in. Before and after it happens the amp behave normal. It seems like the Brutal Thing suddenly hits, the amp gets silent (Locked, blocked, schocked, shivering?  :smiley:), and then sounds again, now with some of the speakers fried and hot. So the question is, is it DC or oscillation? It seems like it happens when the volume is slightly raised when he plays a solo with a dist or drive box. But this is not quite clear, so I have to ask him more about this.
First I will check the solder joints though.

Offline Glennjeff

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2013, 07:43:32 am »
Actually Lennart, the banging with hammer is probably not such a good idea if you are not experienced. Better to bang around on the circuit boards and wiring connections with the tip of a wooden drumstick, wooden kitchen spoon handle or some other NON CONDUCTING object until you find a spot that is sensitive - crackly, poppy or buzzy - whatever.

This behaviour of suddenly working, or suddenly cutting out when extra loud inputs are applied is very typical of either a dry solder joint, bad IC to socket connection or a faulty switch or potentiometer. It could also be many other things unfortunately.

Those things (dry joints etc) also typically cause "when it warms up it gets faulty" stuff to happen. Unfortunately transistors, op amps and, well ...  just about everything else, can exhibit those behaviours as well.

Your conclusion that, ultimately, it is DC or supersonic oscillation that is doing the frypan tick on the speakers seems fair. But what is causing the supersonic oscillation is the big problem. DC is a lot simpler to detect and you appear to have eliminated it.

Best of luck and all the best.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 07:50:04 am by Glennjeff »

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2013, 08:07:21 am »
Iīll be back...

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2013, 10:41:02 am »
OK, I found something. When banging around I noticed that the screw and nut that holds one of the driver transistors to, what I assume is the metal cooling plate, is loose. I tried to fasten it but the thread of the screw is totally worn. So the transistor has no contact with the metal part. Comments on that? And how the **** can  such a thing happen? Nobody seems to have worked with amp. The guy in the factory was too strong?

Offline Dreams

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2013, 05:59:17 pm »
I'm servicing one of these amps right now; it's not exactly a simple circuit, and there are some pretty dangerous voltages inside. The intermittent nature of the problem, coupled with the lack of suitable test gear...


In addition to taking a long time, shotgunning parts won't tell you that you've fixed the fault until the amp stops blowing speakers. Let's say that you replace a bunch of parts, reflow some solder joints, etc, and presume you've fixed it. Then you hook the amp up and it melts some more speakers. Blowing a bunch of speakers is a pretty expensive way of telling you that the amp isn't fixed yet.

You're going to need to:
A) find the problem
B) find out what caused the problem
C) fix the problem
D) make sure that whatever caused the problem won't happen again

I wouldn't feel comfortable connecting this amp to 200+ dollars worth of speakers unless I was SURE that it wouldn't burn them.

Dunno. Weird problem; I can only speculate from here.

I hate to be the one to suggest this, but perhaps you should take the amp to a professional...


Weird question: How is the health of the filament supply? Does it act up at all? Specifically when the amp has been on for a while....

Offline plexi50

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2013, 07:43:48 pm »
Do you have any pic's of the board with the loose screw and transistor?

Offline Glennjeff

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2013, 10:02:51 pm »
Replace with new transistor, bolt, screw and most importantly if there is a plastic washer or mica washer under the transistor replace that as well. Smear a very thin coating of thermal paste on both sides of the washer. Clean all surfaces thoroughly first, no abrasives though. That may not be the whole problem but it is definitely a very bad thing. There may also be little plastic washers on the bolt holes of the transistor. It is essential that you replace these exactly as they are now. The plastic washers will hopefully prevent a major explosion when you switch it back on.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2013, 03:13:05 am »
Do you have any pic's of the board with the loose screw and transistor?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99357732@N02/9358928095/

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2013, 04:02:00 am »

I hate to be the one to suggest this, but perhaps you should take the amp to a professional...



+10000

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2013, 04:56:28 am »

I hate to be the one to suggest this, but perhaps you should take the amp to a professional...



+10000
Yeah, off coarse...But the story goes like this. Last year I took care of a bandmates Music Man. Set bias, replaced tubes and electrolytes, and the guy was happy. And then he told the owner of the actuel amp of this and gave him my phone number. He called me and asked if I am willing to look at his amp, and I...why not, at least I can look and see if Iīll find something. I asked him the question why not take it to a proffesional, and the answer was that nobody in town was ready to deal with such an old amp. I donīt know if he tried. Itīs not a very big town, and probably he has to search for someone in another part of the country. The guy is nice but I donīt know him really. He seems a bit strange to me, a young man and
donīt even own a computer or a cell phone, which is extremely rare in this country.
For me itīs a opportunity to learn, and I think itīs fun. I have an education as a TV and amp repairman since younger days, but have never worked in the field, so much of it is forgotten.

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2013, 05:43:10 am »
[
For me itīs a opportunity to learn, and I think itīs fun. I have an education as a TV and amp repairman since younger days, but have never worked in the field, so much of it is forgotten.

I understand now , but this kind of amp , solid state with printed circuit is very difficult to work on . Hard way to learn . Vintage tubes amps are most easy .


The problem the amp have ( burninf speaker and now oscillation ) need a very skill repairman or a very very lucky beginner.
 

 


Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2013, 08:41:13 pm »
A question. Iīm a bit puzzled about one thing I havenīt thought about before.
There are cables attached to the metal frames of all four speakers,  connecting them all together. And when measuring with the multimeter, it proves that these cables are connected to the minus poles of the speakers. Why? It means that all minus poles are one electrical point (language?) What does that mean in a series/parallell winding?

Offline spacelabstudio

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2013, 08:55:56 pm »
An oscilloscop I can borrow, but donīt have a dummy load. How to make one? Order big resistors from somewhere?

I use two of these wired in parallel inside of a two banger metal wall junction box that you can buy at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Arcol/HS100-16R-1/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujijxGS6LgfEhSF8Qrp0NAdKBcMwSytpfojd1fucZuuog%3d%3d


Offline Glennjeff

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2013, 11:16:24 pm »
And when measuring with the multimeter, it proves that these cables are connected to the minus poles of the speakers. Why? It means that all minus poles are one electrical point (language?)

1. The speaker coils may have burnt and shorted to the metal structures inside, what do the positive poles of speakers measure to these mystery cables.

2. It means they are not wired series - parallel. Either it is an all parallel wiring, in which case the impedance is one quarter the impedance of an individual (1) speaker,

OR

3. It's very wrong indeed. Do all the speaker + connections go together (measure 0.0 ohms), or not?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 11:20:11 pm by Glennjeff »

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2013, 03:42:31 am »
A question. Iīm a bit puzzled about one thing I havenīt thought about before.
There are cables attached to the metal frames of all four speakers,  connecting them all together. And when measuring with the multimeter, it proves that these cables are connected to the minus poles of the speakers. Why? It means that all minus poles are one electrical point (language?) What does that mean in a series/parallell winding?


This mean speakers are not well connected . On side of the output transformer ( is going to speakers  negative side ) is at ground on the amp . And If all the speakers negative pole are attached to the metal frame of each speaker , there is something wrong there.

You see what I mean when I ask ; "did you know what is serie parallel ? "

There are many other thing  you don't see or heard in your amp can help us.

Send picture.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2013, 03:43:18 am »
No, I was wrong... I had diconnected the fried speakers. The two remaining are in parallell, 4 Ohm. The one end of the "extra cables" goes to minus of one of the speakers and then to its own metal frame, and then only to the others metal frames.

Well, I made a dummy load consisting of two water boilers and an iron. Parallell with that a small car speaker connected in series with a bunch of power resistors.
I played at full power and nothing unnormal happened. The dummy load got warm. Even loosened the screw to the drive transistor. I got very hot, but nothing more.
So after all, could it be the that the speakers canīt take the power?   :w2:
Last step: I will play it through a 2X12 cabinet.


stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2013, 03:57:18 am »
If you do a sketch of speaker connection you see how they work . But you probably do that before .

IMO if somebody replace burn speakers and put some new ones that burn too ; Sketch is a must to realy understand AND see if the wiring are OK. That's the way I work.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2013, 04:52:57 am »
I made a sketch and also followd a wire diagram from Music Man, so thatīs not the problem. And also measured the resistans to 8 Ohm.
So I suspect the speakers inability to cope with the power. That subject was up in the beginning of the thread. I asked the man more about the speakers history. When he took over the amp the speakers were already replaced. The guy who sold the amp to him is a friend of his did not have the problem with fried speakers, so the question is, does he play louder than him?

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2013, 05:02:25 am »
I made a sketch and also followd a wire diagram from Music Man, so thatīs not the problem. And also measured the resistans to 8 Ohm.
 


I made a sketch too wit your last information and I see speaker wiring is wrong  :dontknow:

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2013, 05:29:47 am »
What??

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2013, 05:34:31 am »
What??


That 's what I write earlier this morning .

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2013, 06:04:18 am »
That post did a long detour in cyberspace.  :icon_biggrin:

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2013, 06:49:58 am »
I made a sketch and also followd a wire diagram from Music Man, so thatīs not the problem. And also measured the resistans to 8 Ohm.
 


I made a sketch too wit your last information and I see speaker wiring is wrong  :dontknow:

Sorry I MIGHT BE WRONG  :BangHead:

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2013, 03:35:41 pm »
Today Iīve palyed it with the 2x12 cabinet. Itīs made for a 100W amp. Covered the cabinet with blankets and cloths and played with post and pre on 10 for one hour. No problems. What do you think guys, too low speaker power handling?

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2013, 04:04:04 pm »

I would have expected a DC resistance to be between 6 and 7.
OK, yuo got me. It was 7. But nominal 8...

Quote
I am wondering if the speakers that were put in were used.  
Yes. Two of them fried.
Quote
The ghost may have been used up.
 The ghost? What does it mean?



Quote
Regarding the 2x12 cabinet, what is the cabinet's nominal ohm rating, and what ohm output did you run on the amp? 
8 Ohm and 8 Ohm... :smiley:

Offline Glennjeff

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2013, 07:25:49 pm »
Have you fixed that loose transistor?

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2013, 04:37:40 am »


Quote
Regarding used speakers,
No, sorry, I misunderstood you. They were new.

Quote
Just out of curiosity, did the speakers that fried, were they hooked in series?  If so, this could explain why you had three seconds of silence, (The second speaker now overloaded,) 
Yes, in series. One is now open circuit, the other 0,2 Ohm.

Offline Jack1962

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2013, 05:30:44 am »
Lennart , if you have no output for any time period then it returns something is overheating in the circuit weather its caused by oscillation I couldn't tell you neither can anyone else here without it sitting on our bench. My suggestion is start at the input and work to the output of this amp , everyone on here is here to help you , a little less attitude my serve you well friend.
Any tube unit can be brought back to life.
I never meet a tube I didn't like.

stratele52

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2013, 05:35:36 am »
Have you fixed that loose transistor?

It is a must as soon as possible.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2013, 05:37:16 am »
Yes off coarse. New screw and nut.

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2013, 02:09:11 pm »
To make it easier for the guy when he borrows my speaker cab, I converted his combo to a top  :icon_biggrin:
The "cabinet" is a Lab L5 without amp. Speakers are CTS from -79.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99357732@N02/9403922474/

Offline 6G6

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2013, 11:25:57 am »
I keep checking back to see how this ends.
It's like a good mystery.  :laugh:

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2013, 02:21:04 am »
 :guitar1

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2013, 12:03:46 pm »
Yeeeaaahh!!

Offline Lennart

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Re: OT blow speakers?
« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2013, 04:55:20 pm »
Howdy!
The guy has now played the amp with other speakers cabinets without frying them. But now there is another problem, maybe connected to the other one. Ghost notes, you know. These notes are low and follow the actuel pitch. When a note is played and slowly disappears, the ghost note is more and more evident. That is, it doesnīt fade out in the same amount as the original note. Regardless what speaker is used.
Would you say filter caps?

 


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