5e9a Tremolux project...evolved to 5e5 Pro

[TubeGeek]

Hello,

I have been asked to build a 5e9-a Tremolux.  I've never had one come across my bench so I have been busy doing some research on it.

I think I have most of the details figured out but I am a bit stuck on which transformers to choose.  I like heyboer's and would go with them if they make a model for this circuit.

What would you guys recommend?


 http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/TREMOLUX_5E9A.pdf

[rzenc]

Hi TG,

I have built a few 5E9-A. Amazing sounding amp!!

Regarding your question about transformer sets:

I had mine custom built, P.T. pumps out ~360vdc after GZ34. O.T. is 8Kpp@4-8-16.

I also modded the power supply and added a choke, 10H@220R - if memory serves    -.

I have never tried heyboers, but always hear good reviews about them. As well as Hammonds.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards.

R.

[TubeGeek]

I am using a mojo 5e5a tweed pro style chassis for this project.  Can't find an actual screened tremolux chassis anywhere.  I'd like it if I don't have to modify the PT cutout.

This one is a contender:

Classic tone 40-18029, B+ measured @ 200ma DC load, 40uf cap:

red 5u4g 373v dc
red 5ara 422vdc
r/w 5u4gb 297 vdc
r/w 5ara 344 vdc

Nice range of potential B+'s

[TubeGeek]

The PT that comes with mojo's tweed pro kit is the mojo752.  It's the same as the one they use in their tweed bassman kit.

No selectable B+on this one.  It is 355-0-355.

I kinda like the idea of having the lower B+ to play around with when voicing the circuit.  My customer wants the swampy bluesy tone.  He used to have a tremolux years and years ago and I'm trying to help him have that tone again.

I was thinking of adding a switch for high B+ or low B+ in the ground switch position on the chassis.  Good idea or bad idea?  futile?

[TubeGeek]

Hi TG,

I have built a few 5E9-A. Amazing sounding amp!!

Regarding your question about transformer sets:

I had mine custom built, P.T. pumps out ~360vdc after GZ34. O.T. is 8Kpp@4-8-16.

I also modded the power supply and added a choke, 10H@220R - if memory serves    -.

I have never tried heyboers, but always hear good reviews about them. As well as Hammonds.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards.

R.

Does your tremolux have more clean headroom than a deluxe?  I have been reading that the original tremolux has more clean headroom and a larger PT than a deluxe.  Can anyone confirm?

This is a big concern for me.  Don't want to miss the mark on this.

[TubeGeek]

My OT choices are Magnetic components 40-18090 or mojo 770.

I'm thinking the magnetics is winning the race on both here.

I'm looking for an expert confirm my thoughts.

[HotBluePlates]

Does your tremolux have more clean headroom than a deluxe?  I have been reading that the original tremolux has more clean headroom and a larger PT than a deluxe.  Can anyone confirm?

You should get as many additional data points as you can.

That said, I would personally use iron intended for a Deluxe. I know the layout shows a 5U4, but my 5E9 with a 5Y3 didn't have more headroom than a typical Deluxe. It might have been a tiny bit louder, but I put that down to individual speaker differences and the larger cabinet.

Something I never paid attention to in the schematic/layout until now is the 5E9 had 3 inputs, not 4. Two Instrument inputs and one Microphone. The Mic channel was just a single input jack to one side of the 12AY7, but for some unknown reason it always seemed hotter on my old amp.

But please do get a lot of other input from folks with first-hand knowledge of an original.

[TubeGeek]

I haven't seen a 5e9 schematic/layout.  Figured it wasn't available.

Sometimes I think my posts include too much info but it's just how my mind works.  Details details details.  Hopefully someone down the road will google this and something will help them out.

If yours didn't have more headroom then maybe my suspicions that it is the 5G9 that had more headroom is correct.  The PI is different and it is fixed bias.  Got to be what I read.

[TubeGeek]

Looking at the schematic I see ~400VDC at the first filter cap node.

Based on calculations here:  http://www.dreamtone.org/Calculate_Current_Form.htm

If I use a 300-0-300 PT then I'll end up with 384VDC B+.  Probably a little more than that even, close enough to 395VDC which would be correct to the 5e9-a schematic.

The classic tone has 305-0-305 PT…perfect hey!?

I may have answered my own questions here  

[Willabe]

If yours didn't have more headroom then maybe my suspicions that it is the 5G9 that had more headroom is correct.  The PI is different and it is fixed bias.  

I haven't played through a 5E9(A) but I LOVE my 5G9!

I would say it has more head room than the 5E3 not a lot, but it is noticeable. The 5G9's breakup is a little smoother but still has plenty of distortion if you want it. I still like my 5E3 but for me the 5G9 wins hands down. The trem is wonderful! Our friend Tubeswell loves this amp too, says it's the king of Fender grid bias trem amps. Has that swamp trem alright.

If I was still playing in the blues clubs I would definitely play through this amp and use the trem on some songs. The old blues guys would have loved the trem for rhythm playing behind them. Would have been great for smaller clubs or on slow nights/small crowds where my BF SR was to loud. "Turn that thing down!"   

I have built both a 5E3 and a 5G9. I used Mercury Mags for the 5G9 iron.

Yes, the 5G9 has a LTPI and is grid bias. I was looking at that schemo for years and was curious as to how the 2 amps would sound compared to each other since they both have the same preamp but different PI's and different output tube bias.

When Tone Quest Report got a hold of an old 5G9 and did a review I was sold on making one. They loved it and said they felt the larger cab the 5G9 was in helped make it fuller than a 5E3. They also said it takes peddles great and they have a lot of peddles to pick from.

I have a 12" hemp cone Tuby Tone that I use for both amps in a Mojo single open back 12" ext. cab. Put my stand alone Fender reverb in the front with a rosewood fret board Strat and I'm in heaven. I also have a Heritage Les Paul 2xHB that I tune to E for slide (glass/ceramic) and it sings real nice.  

I couldn't be happier with the 5G9, I'm sooooo glad I built it.


          Brad      

[TubeGeek]

If yours didn't have more headroom then maybe my suspicions that it is the 5G9 that had more headroom is correct.  The PI is different and it is fixed bias.  

I LOVE my 5G9!

I would say it has more head room than the 5E3 not a lot, but it is noticeable. The 5G9's breakup is a little smoother but still has plenty of distortion if you want it. I still like my 5E3 but for me the 5G9 wins hands down. The trem is wonderful! Our friend Tubeswell loves this amp too, says it's the king of Fender grid bias trem amps. Has that swamp trem alright.

I have built both a 5E3 and a 5G9. I used Mercury Mags for the 5G9 iron.

Yes, the 5G9 has a LTPI and is grid bias. I was looking at that schemo for years and was curious as to how the 2 amps would sound compared to each other since they both have the same preamp but different PI's and different output tube bias.

When Tone Quest Report got a hold of an old 5G9 and did a review I was sold on making one. They loved it and said they felt the larger cab the 5G9 was in helped make it fuller than a 5E3. They also said it takes peddles great and they have a lot of peddles to pick from.

I have a 12" hemp cone Tuby Tone that I use for both amps in a Mojo single open back 12" ext. cab. Put my stand alone Fender reverb in the front with a rosewood fret board Strat and I'm in heaven. I also have a Heritage Les Paul 2xHB that I tune to E for slide (glass/ceramic) and it sings real nice. 

I couldn't be happier with the 5G9, I'm sooooo glad I built it.


          Brad             
 
 

I went back and forth several times with this customer between the 5e9-a and 5g9.  In the end he has decided he wants me to build him the 5e9-a.  He did some listening on youtube and found a couple videos that really pointed him to the 5e9a. 

I was hoping you and tubeswell would chime in on this.  I've seen and read lots of other forum posts on this topic.

[Willabe]

I'd love to play through a 5E9A to see how it sounds. Maybe I'll have to build 1 someday?

A number of guys here have built a 5E9A and said they were very happy with it.


           Brad     

[TubeGeek]

How is the volume between the 5e3 and 5g9?

[Willabe]

Ok, 3 Fender 6V6 amps, 5E3, 5E9A and 5G9.

All 3 have the same preamp, same 4 input jacks, same volume/tone controls, NO negative feedback loop and all 3 had a single 12" speaker?

5E3 has split load/concertina PI with cathode bias output stage, no trem. No choke, 5Y3 rectifier tube.

5E9A has paraphrase PI with cathode bias output stage and trem injected into the PI cathodes. No choke, (early 1's had 5Y3?), later models had 5U4 rectifier tube.

5G9 has LTPI with grid bias output stage and grid bias trem. Does have a choke, 5V4 rectifier tube.

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/DELUXE_5E3.pdf

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/TREMOLUX_5E9A.pdf

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/TREMOLUX_5G9.pdf


           Brad      

Edit; I forgot all 3 amps since they have the same 4 jack input preamp/controls have inter active volume controls. Which gives more tonal options.  

[Willabe]

How is the volume between the 5e3 and 5g9?

Very close with mine. But that's with the same single 12" and same speaker open back cab.

TQR mag owns both old 5E3 and 5G9. They said the 5G9 sounded fuller, bigger than the 5E3 and chalked it up to the 5G9's bigger cab.

They also go the Neil Young rout with 6L6's in there 5E3, although they A/B the 2 amps with 6V6's for the review.

         Brad     

[Willabe]

I lent my Dave Thunderfunk book to a friend so I can't look it up right now but it had a foot note about the early 5E9's being very close to a tweed Deluxe?

Someone was asking about building a 5E9 a year (?) or so ago and I posted what the footnote said.



             Brad     

[TubeGeek]

Last year I built a 5e3 in a larger Pro style cabinet and it indeed gave it a little bump in "bigness".  I believe the 5g9 had the Pro sized cabinet.

This time around this guy wants a little more volume, around 20-25watts or so.  I keep going back to recommending a Tweed Pro.

https://itunes.apple.com/ca/album/travel-on/id573803375

I'm not sure if this link will work where you are but take a listen to Johnny Guitar on this album.  The free preview should be enough to give an idea of how it sounded.

The last thing I want to do for this guy is build something he expects more volume that what he will get.  Looks like more thought is required before I order anything.

[Willabe]

Yes it works and it sounds like a good amp to me.

I think a tweed pro is very under rated amp. Tweed Deluxe with a 6L6GB power section and a 15" speaker. And no NFB loop.


         Brad        

[TubeGeek]

Yeah hopefully some day I will build a Pro, if not for someone else I will more than likely build one for my own collection.  Even changing the 15" to a 12" if a 15" is too much would be cool.

[rzenc]

TG,

Sorry for the delay...

When we compared 5E3 x 5E9-A - same guitars, players, cabinets - the 5E9-A had more headroom indeed, however, I must point out that I built these amps, they are not dead stock layout - hey, diy'ers roll their own   - not clones from companies...

My personal 5E3 has around 285vdc @ 6V6 plates, while 5E9-A has ~360vdc. Of course this sets preamp voltages higher overall and could be a factor for it's "higher" headroom. Thus, 5E9-A has more dinamic range and sounded more controlled, however, less forgiving.

IMHO, 5E9-A is an outstading amp, as well as 5E3.

Regarding O.T.'s, I like to have 4-8-16 secondary outputs. Both amps were built as heads instead of combos and it offers more options to plug different speaker cabinets.

I did some mods to 5E9-A:

GZ34 tube recto;
Added choke to B+ G2 node;
22uF Solens on B+ rails;
Elevated heaters reference;
Metalfilm resistors;
Mallory 150 on preamp and OD 716 on P.I.

5E3 is all carbon comp, mallory 150 and F&T filter caps. Also heaters were elevated to ~100vdc reference.

Both amps had Tung Sol NOS 12AY7 (V1), Philips ECC83 (P.I.)

5E3 had G.E. 6V6GTA and Philips ECG 5Y3WGTA.
5E9-A had JJ 6V6 and Philips GZ34 metalbase - later changed to JJ GZ34, believe it or not it did sound better...

Best speaker for 5E9-A we have tried so far is WGS 15" Alnico...killer!!!

If I were to build another example of either amp, I would choose B+ ~ 340vdc and use new production tubes. G.E. did not like the higher voltages I had on my 5E9-A.


Hope this helps,

Best Regards,

R.

[TubeGeek]

Ok so I have been going back and forth for the past week on several circuits and we have decided to build a 5e5 Pro.  It's for sure what he (my customer) is going for in terms of tone and output.

Thanks for all the help deciphering the details.

[lego4040]

 :w2:Sorry to see that your not going to build the 5E9-A Tremulox. Did you see this thread? Its a beautifully documented thread with tons of pictures http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1207200 This is some clone of one. Maybe it will spark up interest again