are these caps bad?

[pbman1953]

I'm soldering all the spade connectors on my Sunn 300T  and I noticed 3 caps with this brown crusty stiff coming out the end.

Let me know because I'd have to order the parts

FYI, the reason for the soldering is a crackling sound and loss of power. From web searching, I've read that techs have solved the issue by directly soldering the sires. The main was problem was vibration the spade connectors would have an intermittent connection

Thanks

[rzenc]

All e-caps showing it must be changed.

R.

[pbman1953]

e-caps?

[g-man]

Deleted

[pbman1953]

I get it.

Are "IC" brand caps junk?"


Looking at others I see some brown dust out the ends. What could of caused it. Looking at the pc board I saw a 2006 date next to the "Fender " logo

[g-man]

Deleted

[rzenc]

Are "IC" brand caps junk?"


No.


Looking at others I see some brown dust out the ends. What could of caused it. Looking at the pc board I saw a 2006 date next to the "Fender " logo.

7-8 years seems like a short life span. Maybe Fender got a bad batch?

If you check IC site, there are different types of e-caps and their expected lifetime is between 1000-2000 hours under load. If the amp was used 3 hours, 3 days per week, than 9 hr/week, ~40hr/month, ~500hr/year. 2006-2013 is 7 and something, averages ~3500 hr.


R.

[silverfox]

You may have capacitors that are suffering from the Capacitor Plague. The plague was a result of industrial espionage in the late 90's where an engineer stole the formula for a new water based capacitor formula. Unfortunately he didn't get the entire recipe and as a result the capacitors manufactured during this time frame by companies using this bad formula were defective. The defects showed up within 2 to 5 years. But your board was in manufacture in 2006...

Surplus or inventory that the manufacturer used anyway hoping the problem had not infected their inventory.

See this link for more information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Silverfox.

[sluckey]

Arte Johnson - Very interesting - YouTube.flv

[pbman1953]

Wow. Laugh In, Long time

[pbman1953]

Looking at the 2 , next smaller, radials, they have no cracks or bulge. Same goes for the 3 big ones too. No cracks or bulge


What I need are 2- 47 uf's @ 450v and 4- 22uf's @ 450v.
Typically I buy from Webber but his values are 20 @ 500 and 40 @ 500

or I can go to Antique and get F&T's and pay a ton more. Or go to my local parts house and get NTE's

[stratele52]

What I need are 2- 47 uf's @ 450v and 4- 22uf's @ 450v.
Typically I buy from Webber but his values are 20 @ 500 and 40 @ 500

or I can go to Antique and get F&T's and pay a ton more. Or go to my local parts house and get NTE's

Antique's good F & T will cost you a total of $35 for a quality parts . Same job to put good cap than cheap one . I'll go for best one.

I don't trust caps sold for $1,85 each

[alerich]

Doug stocks 22uf/500VDC and 47/500VDC Illinois brand right here at Hoffman Amps. I use them and have never had a problem with them. Those Weber caps you noted are probably close enough values but if I was being picky about component quality the stuff you get from Weber is comparable to Illinois quality. Some of the more expensive brands of filter caps aren't really any better quality- just more expensive.

[stratele52]

  Some of the more expensive brands of filter caps aren't really any better quality- just more expensive.

I'd like to know more about that , any link ?

[1rebmem]

I will give my opinion which is based on 33 years working in electric generating plants (two).

This applies to electrolytic cap's only.
Generally, capacitor life is based upon the environment they are used in and the specs of the capacitor. If you operate the cap in hot/extreme conditions, you reduce the life. Spec wise, if you run the cap near it's rated voltage, ie less margin, you reduce life.
These are just a couple of examples.

We have generally assigned a 10 year life to electrolytic's. If they are in critical circuits we may replace them every 10 years give or take. The larger the electrolytic the shorter the life generally. When we test them for drift and leakage, a 1uF seems to last longer than a 100uF.

IC cap's are good. We use plenty of them, no issues. When I build an amp I spend a little more and use F&T or Sprague...... only because they are generally considered the best and people like to see them in an amp.
 
I do believe any brand name is just fine if properly spec'ed for the amp.  Brand name being any of the known trusted cap makers.
I'm pretty sure very very few people can really prove a F&T will perform better than an IC in the same amp.
 
FYI....Weber had problems with their cap's a while back.  Their supplier was providing cap's that were re-packaged. When opened up they had smaller value caps inside. Look it up.

[alerich]

  Some of the more expensive brands of filter caps aren't really any better quality- just more expensive.

I'd like to know more about that , any link ?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

[alerich]

IC cap's are good. We use plenty of them, no issues. When I build an amp I spend a little more and use F&T or Sprague...... only because they are generally considered the best and people like to see them in an amp.

Threads like this are part of the reason why... that's why I always speak up.

[DummyLoad]

Threads like this are part of the reason why... that's why I always speak up.

disagree. IC 22uF 450 & 500V TTA series parts are unreliable. this is based on service experience having replaced several for premature failure. this thread itself solidifies that fact.

it's not like these caps are seeing maximum ripple current @ >10KHz in switching power supplies. typically it's 120Hz with a very few mA of load - a quality part should last a lot longer than a few years, even at rated operating temps.

--pete 

[stratele52]

  Some of the more expensive brands of filter caps aren't really any better quality- just more expensive.

I'd like to know more about that , any link ?

You have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

 I'm just wondering where your statement just because you did not mentioned that it is only your opinion.
I often read contrary opinions on the web.

Capacitors that you used there 15-20 -30 years are probably no longer the same today. Better or worse ?
Most of the time you have the quality for what you pay. Today for lots of thing is cheap price first ,quality second.

By the way I have almost 40 years experience in repair service on any kind of electronics appliances . Since 10 years mostly in tubes amps . And I alway learn.
 

[1rebmem]

Threads like this are part of the reason why... that's why I always speak up.

disagree. IC 22uF 450 & 500V TTA series parts are unreliable. this is based on service experience having replaced several for premature failure. this thread itself solidifies that fact.

it's not like these caps are seeing maximum ripple current @ >10KHz in switching power supplies. typically it's 120Hz with a very few mA of load - a quality part should last a lot longer than a few years, even at rated operating temps.

--pete 

Interesting thread. Great input.
I've seen a lot of IC caps used commercially and don't recall them being any different overall.
Perhaps it boils down to the spec's and application, I don't know. Maybe some amp manufactures are running them at their max rated voltage and using a lower temperature rated cap.....to save money.

It's like with motor oil. There are a bizillion opinions about the best oil but in my 55 years no one has ever demonstrated that one brand is better than another. The right oil for the application means  everything. Oil related failures have only been proven due to improper application and maintenance etc.

I wonder if capacitors parallel this ?
Just my humble opinion......

[birt]

well since caps have a shorter life with higher temperatures... how hot do you think it gets in a Sunn 300T?

and expensive caps that everyone likes to see in tube amps are mostly bigger ones. so they are probably less affected by temperature. just guessing here.

[stratele52]

well since caps have a shorter life with higher temperatures... how hot do you think it gets in a Sunn 300T?

and expensive caps that everyone likes to see in tube amps are mostly bigger ones. so they are probably less affected by temperature. just guessing here.

Expensive one are bigger this mean they are not the same than small  cheaper one. IMO they may be better .
Temperature ......how is in your car in summer ? 125 F maybe more ?
And your radio/CD player still work ? Forget temperature if you do not built space ship

[sluckey]

Expensive one are bigger this mean they are not the same than small  cheaper one. IMO they may be better .

Like this...

[Ed_Chambley]

Expensive one are bigger this mean they are not the same than small  cheaper one. IMO they may be better .

Like this...

I have seen photos of your builds.  I believe I have seen these over-sized cans in those.

I cannot recall seeing an IC cap, but I am sure you use them.....................right?

[sluckey]

Oh yes. Here are some in recent builds...

[1rebmem]

well since caps have a shorter life with higher temperatures... how hot do you think it gets in a Sunn 300T?

Well I don't know I admit but since you own one...........why don't you check?

and expensive caps that everyone likes to see in tube amps are mostly bigger ones. so they are probably less affected by temperature. just guessing here.

Expensive one are bigger this mean they are not the same than small  cheaper one. IMO they may be better .
Temperature ......how is in your car in summer ? 125 F maybe more ?
And your radio/CD player still work ? Forget temperature if you do not built space ship

"Forget temperature if you do not built space ship"
Your basis please? References/links? (to quote you).


Here: http://www.ftcap.de/index.php/solder-terminals-weiterlesen/items/series-lf-40c-85c-3000h-lug-terminal-style.html
  F&T.........Arguably the best right?  Range up to 85 degrees C.

Here: http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm
 Convert to degrees F if desired. Comes out to 185 degrees F.

Here: http://av-pix.com/2010/JMP_Restoration/JMP_Chassis.JPG

Typical amp with the cap next to a power tube and/or PT.  I have one just like it. Not a Sunn 300T. I know my power tubes get REAL hot. As a matter of fact my Marshall rear plywood cover is scorched brown from the power tubes. My PT gets a bit warm too.
Put it back in the head cab and crank it.......could the cap temp approach 185 degrees F????  I don't know, haven't checked to be honest. But I suspect so under some playing conditions. I keep it in the bedroom and don't crank it much. How bout the real players out there. Do they play on a stage that has a climate warmer than an air conditioned bedroom?

Perhaps cap spec's should be considered?
It ain't rocket surgery. Just sayin........

[1rebmem]

Oh.....and.....beautiful work Sluckey !!!!

[stratele52]

1rebmen ,
I never a see caps in very hot place in a guitar amps . Caps can you show on a Marshall type amp are not in a too hot area to me . 

[stratele52]

Expensive one are bigger this mean they are not the same than small  cheaper one. IMO they may be better .

Like this...

I have seen photos of your builds.  I believe I have seen these over-sized cans in those.

I cannot recall seeing an IC cap, but I am sure you use them.....................right?

I never use those caps and I'm sure you never see my built

[1rebmem]

1rebmen ,
I never a see caps in very hot place in a guitar amps . Caps can you show on a Marshall type amp are not in a too hot area to me . 

In the link I provided above is a chassis shot of a 50W Marshall just like mine. That blue thing next to the power tube and PT is the filter cap. Once you put the chassis back into the cabinet and put the rear cover back on the cab, that blue thing is in what amounts to a little oven.
You don't think that cap will be subjected to some temperatures?

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor
Scroll down to "Reliability and length of life"
Read carefully.  It says stuff like  "As a rule of thumb, the life doubles for each 10 °C lower operating temperature"

Great discussion, thanks.
I provided links and facts.
Believe what you choose.
I'm not sure I can explain my thinking any better.....sorry.

[stratele52]

You don't think that cap will be subjected to some temperatures?
Great discussion, thanks.
 

Some temperature ....yes . Too much temperature no , proof these amps work fine after 30 -40 years and we replace caps just because they are dried same as they do if was on the shelf at fresh temperature .

Great discussion yes

[birt]

i just wanted to say temperature does matter. as do other things like where the standby switch is in the circuit, how oversized the caps are (voltage wise), tube or sand rectifier and so on.

and yes tube amps do get really hot. i have witnessed SVTII's with the front panels still hot to the touch 2 hours after the concert. that means the amps were HOT inside. (i admit, it was a Sun o))) concert so they were dimed the whole time)

[Ed_Chambley]

Oh yes. Here are some in recent builds...

Love the builds, but you forgot the most critical thing.  You are using the wrong power cord!!!!!!

Marketing proves we purchase first from familiarity.  The brand.  Most of us are familiar with Sprague, Ohmite, F&T.  Second comes visual.  Solen, and F&T are black and look cool to me.  A person will pay more for the same product if it is more appealing, even if it is lower quality.  This is especially true for inexpensive items.  Most individuals will not read a spec sheet for a $8 purchase.

Finally, we may read and compare specifications.  In electrolytic I just looked and I have far more Nichicon than anything else.  The simple reason is the electronics store I go to stocks a very nice variety.  They have sprague as well, but one day I was purchasing a lot of them and the price difference was huge.  This caused me to review the spec sheets only to find the Nichison were basically the same, but they do not look as cool to me.

Go figure?

Tube down heads get really hot without proper ventilation.  Usually the main filter caps are very close to the power tubes.  It is too easy and inexpensive to install a slow moving fan that in reality if you amp is getting too hot it is not the fault of the amp.  Even the glass on the power tubes wont burn you.

So the consideration of heat on caps IMO is simply not necessary.  If it is too hot, better caps are not a solution for this application, but would be a wise consideration if you have no means of controlling the environment (temperature).

[pbman1953]

After looking closer at the big ( 350uf @ 450v) caps I saw these imperfections . I sent pics so please let me know any thoughts.

The edge of one looks melted and the other  has a dent. Plus Fender applied hot glue between the 3 caps and the one with the melted edge  broke away from it's neighbor


Plus:

This turned out to be a really positive learning experience !

Thanks for all the input.

I tried going to my local store,, for the 6 IC replacements, to see what they had but they didn't have the values I needed. In the end I'm going with Nichicon @ $30 shipped.

I'm sure I'll be fine.

[SoundmasterG]

Generally speaking, any of the cap brands ending in "con" are good quality. For radial caps I like Panasonic myself...very good quality.

Weber did have some trouble with some of their cap offerings several years back, but many people across the world were hit with that Chinese scam...it wasn't just Weber. Weber also tried to get their customers to let them know so they could replace the bad ones with good ones. Not many other companies did that.

Sprague Atoms are overpriced, and huge. As soon as I use up my stock of them I am not getting any more myself.

I personally don't like IC caps...had too many failures with them...but some other people get good results.

I think you'll be fine with the Nichicons.

Greg

[alerich]

I used a brand called MIEC when I built my JCM 800 clone. Used them for filters and coupling caps. Also used them to re-cap my Mig60. Been playing them hard for about 8 months. So far I like them and will use them again.

[pbman1953]

I've used that brand before because it's a stock item at a local parts store. For all you Boston locals I'm sure or I hope you've heard of You Do It Electronics. Its been around for at least 25 or more years.