Looking at Alnico II Pickup Replacement for my Aria 335 Copy--Any Suggestions?

[alerich]

Pickups still haven't came in yet. Has any of you had to drill out you pot holes on your 335 import copy for your new larger diameter pot shafts? Did you use a regular drill. I have had a regular drill get a little out of control and chew up stuff. One guy I seen said he used a step drill. Little nervous about drilling out the holes. Platefire

I had to do that recently while installing a set of EMG Blackouts in a Peavey EXP. I used a Dremel with some sort of abrasive tip and slowly enlarged the hole, test fitting as I went. No chipping or splitting of the paint happened. It worked great. Those are amazing little tools.

[sluckey]

I used a Dremel with some sort of abrasive tip and slowly enlarged the hole, test fitting as I went.

That's what I'd do also.

My step bits only cover about 1/8^th inch thickness per step and the body of your guitar is probably more than that. The two hand reamers I have would hit the back of the guitar before getting the hole big enough.

[Platefire]

OK, I've got a Black and Decker type Dremel Copy. Everything I got is a copy If you could elaborate a little more on what type tip---was it smaller that the existing hole and you kept circling around the perimeter the hole until it was large enough? Platefire

[super&plexi]

Hey, don't listen to Ed...it can tend to be a good deal harder than standing on your head while fishing wire through a L.P.cavity...lol.  big thumb up for fluted reamer, and welding rod, stiff wire (like solid core household mains Gnd., coat hanger, or even old metal 'track' from windshield wiper-or wood ruler is good 'cause it's flat, and you get control when twisting.


Also might go with mock up of hole pattern, paying attention to cap placement/dress in relation to F hole, etc. especially if using big old style PIO's or HV caps with long leads. also,if at all possible use BEST WIRE...if you have to muck with it, you don,t want it fallin' apart/fraying  before it's in.


Cover the old girl up with a cloth(leaving F hole open of course) taped down with low tack tape so as not to scratch, or stick if desired (and bench too), because you may well be turning, twisting like a couple Lambada dancers, the two of you before everything's back together. Funny, I used to do this all the time when I was younger, but was just doing my epi 'custom shop' 335 a fewMos back, and was a lot harder and time consuming than I remember. Fishjing the pots through with monofiliment, or? is a good idea.


 I try to start at jack first, fishing through, tightening then moving on to next closest to jack, with parts staged 'ship in glass' sort of-all pre wired from my piece of Luann mock up. or cardboard, or whatever. all with fishing line pre 'fished' through pot/jack holes, and tied to pots/jacks, then fastened to body with tape so as not to fall/feed back through. maybe allow time to do in stages if it's not going smooth......seems it's one of those jobs that can go surprisingly easy, or turn into a headache, just as easily.




Oh, by the way, it almost sounds like you might be a candidate for a  p90echtomy...they'll usually fit in with just a hair shaved off in the four corners of the cavity, & if you don't rout the width too much/or maybe even at all, can be covered back up with stock HB  mounting rings if it turns out you didn't like 'em, but I can't see not liking them. I had Doug ''Raging Cajun'' Kershaw's  ES 330 for a while, and Holy Cow, maybe the best 33(?)style  guitar I've ever played/heard. traded my '52 LP for that guitar and 3mos rent. come to think of it, The LP had one of the best sounding p90s I've ever heard also. 330 was 60s if remember correctly. wine red, major checking, beautiful, in every way, like said...when Gibson, or Epi for that matter,  got  it right, man it was RRRighTTTT!


good luck, and hope I could help in somee small way. and don't be afraid of step drill...just watch out-some have more deeper cutting area than otherass---meaning the amount of cutting area before it 'steps' up to the next size hole on the same bit. ultimately you want cutting area same or more than thickness of body, or will start to cut next size hole.  harbor fright has a set of 3 for less than one of some others. of course probably not as good, but my set has lasted a few years, and you'll use on chassis all the time. makes flawless holes in lot of metals, with added bonus---just kiss the top of hole in metal with slight pressure from drill when desired size is reached and you can run your finger around it, burr free!.

[alerich]

If you could elaborate a little more on what type tip---was it smaller that the existing hole and you kept circling around the perimeter the hole until it was large enough?

I don't honestly recall what tip I used. Most Dremel kits (copy or real deal) come with an assortment of cylindrical and conical shaped abrasive bits. Anything that will fit with the existing opening will work. I just gently went around the entire opening one or two passes at a time and then test fit the new pot to see if it was big enough. In my case the new pots were only slightly larger than the old pots so it didn't take much. Slow and steady is the key.

[Platefire]

Thanks super&Plexie----I always appreciate the voice of experience. I've got a set of Seymour Duncan SH-1's(59) ordered that are running behind/late on delivery. I will wait to order the new pots/caps/switch until I pull the old ones out and check out the arrangement. The key for me is to take my time, not get in a hurry and think things out in advance as much as possible. When I get in a rush is when I make big mistakes! Thanks to you and others I have a lot of good information. Once you get into a job you usually encounter something you had not anticipated which may be a good time to stop and ask some more questions. I'm truly looking forward to cruising my 335c with new pu's and electronics.

alerich---got you---thing I may have a tool already that will work.

Thanks, Platefire

[Platefire]

Har! I've already spent more time researching this 335 thang for new pickups and re-wiring than is reasonable! Got several questions:

1-What's the deal with Bourns Pots and paper/oil caps? That much better than CTS and orange drops? Why don't anybody ever use Mallory 150's on guitar wiring?

2-I've got coil taps/4 conductor wiring with my SD SH-1's/59's. The only pots I've seen with DPDT switch is Alphas--would those fit through a  335 F hole? Also seems like on about a 7K Ohm PAF pickup the coil tap for a single coil would be at most about 4K---seems too weak to be real value for tapping???

3-A lot of kits come with all Audio taper pots. I see where in a lot of cases folks use Audio taper for volume and linear taper for tone pots. Which is best??

4-There is a You Tube video that I think is very good showing the difference in sound between the sound of modern wiring and vintage wiring. I think the modern hads the tone bleed cap and resistor where vintage doesn't. On the video the vintage sounded more warm and organic and the modern sounded more bright edge. Any opinions which is best.

Trying to come to a final conclusion on what wiring to go for since I got my pickups came in today. Platefire

[alerich]

1-What's the deal with Bourns Pots and paper/oil caps? That much better than CTS and orange drops? Why don't anybody ever use Mallory 150's on guitar wiring?

I feel that the Bourns pot is just a better part made from better material hence the premium price. Having said that I have never used them. I use Alpha pots in all my guitars and have had very good results across the board. I can only recall one pot that ever failed and it did so very quickly - within a few months. I bought it from GFS. None of the pots I have ever bought from Doug have given me a moment's trouble.

I honestly rarely or never use the tone controls on my guitars so in that scenario the tone control itself is basically just a load on the circuit as I understand it. I will disconnect the tone controls or install no load pots on darker guitars that I am trying to brighten up. Since I rarely use the tone controls I have never noticed much difference between caps. People who use PIO caps seem to swear by them.

2-I've got coil taps/4 conductor wiring with my SD SH-1's/59's. The only pots I've seen with DPDT switch is Alphas--would those fit through a  335 F hole? Also seems like on about a 7K Ohm PAF pickup the coil tap for a single coil would be at most about 4K---seems too weak to be real value for tapping?

That's a good question. I have pulled Strat pickups that I thought sounded too wimpy only to find that they were 4.0-4.5 K ohms. My instinct is that this is too low to be useful to me but as always that's a personal preference. I just installed a GFS Fat Pat in the bridge of one of my Strats and coil tapped it and it sounds great but that pickup is wound to 14 K ohms so tapped it's still about 7K or so. Given the PITA involved in wiring a hollow body guitar I might just rain check the idea of coil tapping that particular pickup.

3-A lot of kits come with all Audio taper pots. I see where in a lot of cases folks use Audio taper for volume and linear taper for tone pots. Which is best?

Many pickup wiring diagrams don't even stipulate audio vs linear pots. The same logic applies to their use in amps. It won't make the circuit behave differently per se but it will respond a bit differently for a given amount of rotation of the pot. Most of the guitars you already own probably have audio taper tone pots so that is probably what you are used to.

4-There is a You Tube video that I think is very good showing the difference in sound between the sound of modern wiring and vintage wiring. I think the modern hads the tone bleed cap and resistor where vintage doesn't. On the video the vintage sounded more warm and organic and the modern sounded more bright edge. Any opinions which is best.

I tried that treble bleed circuit once. I didn't like it and immediately removed it. It's supposed to retain treble as you roll off the volume pot. The guitar in question was a single HB pickup Strat with a GFS VEH pickup and a maple neck/fretboard and a single 500K volume pot. Already bright as hell. With a single pickup, maple neck and no tone control I didn't need it. You guitar is a different animal and it might be useful.

[Platefire]

Thanks, always helps to have someones Else's perspective when your trying to make a decision. Nobody else could understand this kind of deliberation on a thing like this other that another dedicated guitar player.

At this point I seem to be leaning toward vintage wiring and no PU tap switches. I really would like to get as close as possible as if it was the year 1959 and I walked into a guitar store and purchased an ES-335 stock---or at least a close as you can get with a ARIA clone 335. In fact I'm considering the possibility of ordering this pre-wired harness that has pretty much everything I want for my modification for $50.00 free shipping. You can't even buy the parts from StewMac for this price!! So please have a look and please tell me if I'm missing something?? I can't see buying all the parts and putting it together myself when it will cost me $25 to $40 more to do so. The only possible issue I can see is making sure you can get it all through the f-hole in place but I don't seen anything in the picture that would prevent that(follow attached Link). Platefire

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prewired-ES-335-Wiring-Harness-for-Gibson-CTS-Switchcraft-PIO-Paper-In-Oil-/111483076236?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item19f4e8be8c

[Ed_Chambley]

I prefer vintage and I use PIO caps.  My tone pot is almost never dimed, especially on a Telecaster.  I got some PIO caps off ebay that are the same as LUX. Here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/015-uf-Vintage-Russian-Paper-in-Oil-Capacitor-K40Y-9-LP-335-SG-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/221635091787

These are nice and the same guy has the .22 as well.  Check out his other things.  He has some nice items.

 I prefer the CTS pots because I am familiar with the taper.  I use 50's gibson wiring which is brighter than the Modern wiring or should be.  I do not like resistors because I am not looking brighter.  We are speaking Humbuggies here.

I do not like coil taps.  To me they never really sound good and I have spent too much time trying when grabbing a single coil guitar is easier.  I have tested all kinds of caps and resistors.  Even the bumblebees.  I do loosen the pot up first by bending the tabs up a little so they spin easily.  I used to get the EVH versions till I found out they are just loosened.

I do have Les Paul and 335 wired so the top pot is the bridge pup volume so I can ride it to do swells and the 50's wiring allows either volume pot to kill the volume.

If you want to try something different, put a cap in series with a 470 ohm resistor.  This will keep the treble up some when you roll back and avoid a volume hump.

[Platefire]

Thanks Ed

I got a pot question?? I've done some research but can't come up with an answer so far.

On all CTS pots that I find for sale individually have an indention on the back like in the pix below and you can see what appears to be the end of the rear of shaft in the indentation. Some of the pre-wired harnesses I'm looking at advertise CTS pots but if you look at the pots, the back side has a CTS stamped in it but the back is completely flat(no indentation) that is shown in the pix of the harness below. What's up with this??? are these cheap fake CTS pots in the harness?? Platefire

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks Ed

I got a pot question?? I've done some research but can't come up with an answer so far.

On all CTS pots that I find for sale individually have an indention on the back like in the pix below and you can see what appears to be the end of the rear of shaft in the indentation. Some of the pre-wired harnesses I'm looking at advertise CTS pots but if you look at the pots, the back side has a CTS stamped in it but the back is completely flat(no indentation) that is shown in the pix of the harness below. What's up with this??? are these cheap fake CTS pots in the harness?? Platefire

Cheap, yes.  Fake no.  CTS makes quite a few versions.

[Platefire]

OK, Thanks Ed

Trying to resist the urge to order any electronics until I pull existing out first. I think I could have a lot better idea what to go back in with after seeing that. I know that taking my time and being patient is the best practice, I just find it hard to perform it. Platefire

[Platefire]

Well I had to pull off of this until after Christmas/New Year but all the company has gone home, took all the exterior lights and ornaments down and put them up and kinda getting back to normal sorta. So I'm getting back to my 335 wiring.
I picked up some aquarium air lines from wally world to use to fish pots/switch through F hole. I found the hose fits the old Chinese 3/16" shafts ok but the CTS 1/4" shafts, they were too little and couldn't force them on. I ended up going to Auto Zone and got some vacuum hose that fit the 1/4" shafts but latter found the outside diameter is too big to get the nut/washers over.
 
 I went back and did some experimenting and found if I used the tapered shaft of a nail punch and slightly heat it up under the stove cook top flame, I could stretch the aquarium plastic tubing enough to fit over the 1/4" shaft. I also took an old guitar cord and made a puller for the 1/4" jack. Had to grind on it a little off the jack sleeve to get it small enough for the bolt to slip over.

Also I used some vacuum hose to go over the switch shaft with plastic tip on and think it will work with the bigger switch hole. So I think I'm ready to pull all the electronics out. I decided I wouldn't order the new electronics until I pulled the old out and looked at it and get a feel for the situation. I want to re-read this thread and all the tips and advice before I go any further. I really want to do a good job on this 335c so I'm trying to take my time and do it right. Platefire 

[Willabe]

Dan Earlywine was using surgical tubing just like your doing.

Great minds think alike!


              Brad   

[Platefire]

Well I admit I got the idea from a tip from a friend. I've been told several different methods and this one I liked the best----we will see how it goes! Platefire

[Platefire]

OK, here is some pixs with everything pulled.

[sluckey]

For some strange reason I'm reminded of the joke about the monkey that was told "do not to pull the cork out of the elephant's ass." I know. I'm sick!   

[Willabe]

 

[Platefire]

So you think I did it anyway All I can say without any Battle there can't be no Victory. Its like the man trapped way down in the well, they kept throwing manure on him till finally he walked out 

[sluckey]

No reflection on you at all Platefire. That's a good idea. Seeing those pics though triggered a 40 year old memory and I just thought I'd share. I see some others have that memory hidden away also. The image of that monkey trying to put the cork back in is pretty unforgettable!   

[Platefire]

Man! You hurt my Feelings  cry--cry--cry. Shame on you for 30 minuets or even maybe 45 

I'm pretty old and never heard about no cork and elephant??? Sounds like a dangerous proposition!

FWIW---I needed to make some kind of decision to proceed so I ordered a new pre-wired wiring harness
with Bourns pots and PIO vintage Russian Caps. Sounds good anyway, we'll see how it works out!!??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191483835629?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[sluckey]

There are several slightly different versions of this joke. They all have the same punch line. Do a google search for "monkey and constipated elephant".

[Platefire]

Well I got all my parts in but-------- tell me, how do you ream out the pot holes with all these tubes struck through them?????

[sluckey]

Pull all that spaghetti out of the way. Ream holes. Reinsert spaghetti. Start with the spaghetti hole farthest from the f-hole.
 

[Willabe]

You could use markers of different colors on the spaghetti tubes to know which hole they go back in if you take them out?


            Brad   

[Platefire]

Yeah your right! Nothing else to do but pull out the tubing, enlarge the holes and feed it back through buy hook or crook.
It will be easy figuring out which hole the tubing came from, just blow through the tubing and where the air is coming out is the one just a lot of hot air. We'll get their sooner or latter---slow boat to china

[jjasilli]

My solution has been to use string (not tubing).  Use a long enough string(s).  Put a string down the hole into the guitar body.   Grab it with an appropriate tool and pull it up through the f-hole; then tie it to a component.  I use a slip knot around the shaft of a component.  Drop the component into the f-hole.  Pull the string on the other end to pull the component to its hole.  "Monkey"    the component up though the hole  & undo the string. 


I've done this one component at a time.  But I guess you could do all at once.  I'd tie something to the "pull" end of ea string so it can't fall though its hole into the guitar.

[Platefire]

Well I accomplished it today but I had a dickens of a time. The first time would have been good but somehow the input jack was too small, so I has to pull it all out again. I had problems every time I put the electronics in for several times. After about the fourth time I finally made it. I tell you what, it wasn't a good experience at all but I'm glad it's back together and working. The pre-wired harness I bought for it was well put together. If it wasn't it would have been destroyed after all I put it through today. What testing I've done on it. I'm real happy with the sound. Of course after what I went through today, I feel like I been through the meat grinder. I will much be able to better analyze the results after I've put some space in between this experience and a good nights sleep. Platefire     

[Willabe]

Yeah, I would NOT want to pull out and reinstall a wiring harness in a 335 type guitar.

Good job Plate!!!!!!



                   Brad     

[Platefire]

Thanks! I think I'm up for the "I rewired a 335 and Lived" T-Shirt. After a good nights rest I fired it up this morning. What an improvement in sound. I was noticing this morning on the neck pickup where I had some low end flab on the old pickups when playing around the open big E/A low notes/strings--it's all gone, just clear notes. I was concerned that the SD Sh-1 59's might be a little bright and harsh from some of the reviews I've read but I've tried them on a couple of amps and not brash at all. I was wanting a big, fat and round vintage sounding 335 and it appears I may have it. Platefire

[Willabe]

Thanks! I think I'm up for the "I rewired a 335 and Lived" T-Shirt.

             


Glad they are sounding great to you.


            Brad   

[Platefire]

We'll I played with my Church Praise Band today and am just really impressed with the SD SH-1's. They are even more than I expected. There is no quirkiness, harshness, flabby lows or treble peaks, just good round clear tone with enough edge to cut through. I thinking these are the best sounding humbuckers I've played over in my experience.

This really makes me question the performance of the Golden Age Parson St pickups. The were kind of quirky and did have treble peaks. Just wasn't smooth and round as the SD's.

I do think I know why I got them for so cheap. I think they were manufactured incorrectly and the seller got a good deal on them. The leads I think were cut incorrect length. The bridge lead was longer than the neck lead and it should have been the other way around. I just barely had enough lead to hook it up to the neck volume pot. No slack left what so ever. Platefire

[SILVERGUN]

We'll I played with my Church Praise Band today and am just really impressed with the SD SH-1's. They are even more than I expected.

Hey Plate, just stopping back to say thanks for the update.
I'm still sitting on mine, but now I'm itchin to get em in, after reading your results.

Glad to hear your work paid off!

[Platefire]

Hay your welcome! I know it's just a ARIA Chinese copy, boy when I play it now, it's like the real thing. From the real 335's I have come in contact with over the years, this seems to me like a close runner up.

Need to say thanks to Ed because of his his input along the way to help steer me in the right direction on pups,caps, wire & pots. Thanks Ed!
Platefire