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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: A few Orange OD120 questions  (Read 5818 times)

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Offline nateflanigan

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A few Orange OD120 questions
« on: November 23, 2014, 06:23:41 pm »
Hello, I picked up a "broken" Orange OD120 (90's reissue) at GC on the cheap, they said it had no power, kept blowing fuses.  I found a bad EL34, which anyone could have diagnosed if they bothered to look at it, replaced it and voila.  It's a pretty cool amp, I'm especially digging it for bass.  Today at practice I was thinking "hmmmmm maybe the tone is a little too midrangey", I had the FAC control on the second setting, so I clicked it over to the 1st position (fully counter clockwise, bassiest) after about 30 seconds I could hear the amp struggling to keep up with the low end and blew the HT fuse.  So, my question is, what exactly happened there?  I know it requires more power to amplify lower frequencies, but seems like a nice moment to try and understand the science of it a bit better.


The second question, totally unrelated, I don't like the master volume at all, you can take a little bit of the edge off but turning it down anymore than a both or two and the tone goes out the window.  I saw this MV mod at the orangefieldguide.com...
Mod suggestion by AmperexThe classical Post Phase Inverter Master Volume setup as used in the Orange Overdrives(and also in various Marshall amps) adds some filtering of the sound of the amps. Since the original intent of the Overdrive amps with Master Volume was to have the Graphic sound at lower volume, we can consider this filtering to unwanted.There are alternative master volume setups that cause less unwanted filtering (or "tone sucking"). Amperex has tested an alternative by Ken Fischer. The simplest way to explain this setup: convert your overdrive back to a graphic schematic but replace the two bias feed resistors by a 250K double pot.Tested on my homebrew Orange: works fine, but I would advise to use a high quality double pot for optimum results.(what's a couple of euros/bucks compared to your hearing anyway?). Approved!UP


I don't quite understand what they mean.  As I'm understanding it, each leg of the PI would go, 0.068 cap, 330k resistor, 0.068 cap, then off to the power tubes.  The bias feed resistors basically get replaced with a 250k variable resistor.  Seems like this manipulated the bias voltage, is that such a good idea? It seems like I'm missing something.  Any one have any schematics, or experience with a mod like this?


http://www.orangefieldguide.com/OFG_SCHEM/ODschem_A.gif


Offline sluckey

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 07:25:08 pm »
Quote
The simplest way to explain this setup: convert your overdrive back to a graphic schematic but replace the two bias feed resistors by a 250K double pot.
He's talking about the LarMar MV. It's "A" in the pic in the first post of this thread...

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17045.0

Bias voltage is unaffected by this type MV.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 07:27:46 pm »
Got it, thanks sluckey. 

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 08:17:38 pm »
Ok, some further developments, unrelated to PPIMV tinkering (which I haven't done yet).  I was playing the amp tonight and noticed that one side (two of the four) output tubes was starting to glow bright red.  Ughhh. 
When I got it one of the electro harmonix tubes was blown (yes, from the side that is glowing red again) I happened to have two sovtek E34's on hand so I through them in there, with the EH tubes to test the amp.  It worked great, probably for about 5 hours total, so I figured everything was fine.  What should I start looking at?  I'll get some voltages tomorrow.

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 04:59:59 pm »
turkey bump

Offline sluckey

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2014, 08:30:00 pm »
Quote
It worked great, probably for about 5 hours total, so I figured everything was fine.  What should I start looking at?  I'll get some voltages tomorrow.
If it's fine you don't need to look at anything. Where are those voltages?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 06:04:56 am »
Well, it wasn't fine.  Before I last posted two of the four el34's were red plating, they'd start glowing within about 30 seconds of turning the amp on.  I played it for a while over the long weekend and everything was fine, plate voltages at 480, no tubes about to melt down.  So I guess I'll just have to keep my eye on it.


Offline 6G6

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 09:42:44 am »
Check for a bad solder joint in your bias circuit.
Sounds like it make good contact sometimes, but not others.

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 04:36:22 pm »
Oh, good call.  That's pretty consistent with some of the problems I've been having.  The last time it red plated, I turned the amp off, flipped the chassis upside down, and when I turned it back on I just waited and waited.  That might explain why only one side was lighting up.


Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 07:01:54 pm »
Hey everyone, trouble has returned.  Since we last spoke on this topic I've been enjoying the amp, I had done nothing and things were fine.  Today I thought, I should finally bring that home, do the MV mod, touch up the bias circuit and get it back in the cabinet.  I installed the new MV, everything worked great for about half an hour.  Then the amp started making some pretty bad noises, similar to the sound when you touch the tip of a guitar cord with an amp on.  Sort ground buzz, and popping.  The gain knob didn't effect the sound, but the master volume did.  I started checking voltages, B+ and bias were normal.  Now for the exciting part, the wire connecting the plates on one of the pairs of the output tubes burst into flames, then the fuse blew as well as one of the EL34's.  I got some more fuses, pulled out two of the EL34's, and tried to test again.  Same thing, voltages look good, then that plate wire pops.


I'm wondering about the OT, I did RG Keen's simple tests, results are suspicious...

measure the resistance from the B+ lead to each plate of the output tube(s). Write the resistance reading down. Measure the other side if it's puah pull. Plate windings are almost always in the tens to a few hundred ohms of resistance.


Measured about 20 ohms


While you're at it, measure the resistance of every lead to the chassis. This reading should be very high, hundreds of K or preferably megohms. A low reading here indicates a short to the transformer core - again, dead transformer.


No reading, what does that mean?


Finally, test for the resistance from primary to secondary. A low value, under a few K indicates an internal short, and a dead transformer.


Measured about 700 ohms.  This seems like a problem.  But I've never had a problem with sound not coming out of the amp, but I guess I don't know what a dead OT sounds like.


Any insights? 

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 08:21:18 am »
Bumping for the Sunday morning crowd

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 07:35:28 pm »
This one is so baffling to me.  I replaced the burned up plate wire.  I tested the OT by applying 6.66 VAC to the primaries (tubes removed) I measured about .4 on the 8 ohm tap, slightly more on the 16 and slightly less on the 4.  I put in just two EL34's (that's all I have left) and fired up the amp, so far I've played it for about an hour with no issues.  I've ordered another quad of EL34's, I figure I'll just have to play and wait and see.  I'm super nervous to put the chassis back in the cab in case it catches on fire again.

Offline AZJimC

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 08:05:36 pm »
If you're reading 700ohm between a primary side wire, and output side wire, there is a short in the transformer. There should be no CD conducted from primary to secondary side of transformer. Make sure that reading is correct, and replace the OT if it is.

It is possible that the short is on the outside of the winding, and if so, it might be repairable, if you can see the place the wiring is burned, and repair, then test again for correct dc resistance on all windings. I've had transformers sound fine until a heavy is sent to them, and they crack up. Also Had one that blew fuses without tubes installed. That one tested shorted primary to secondary, and at way less than 700 ohm... dead short nearly.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 08:10:19 pm by AZJimC »

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 08:48:47 pm »
Thanks, I'll double check the resistance measurements.  I don't know why, I've always had a hard time understanding transformers.  What do you make of the voltage test?  Seemed to add up to me.


Offline AZJimC

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 12:34:08 am »
That voltage test seems okay, but remember, there is no load on it, so heat related things would not show up possibly.

I like to think of a transformer in a simple form. Take a nail, and wrap 30 wraps of wire around one end, then get another wire and wrap 60 wraps of wire around the other end. These would be 1:2  winding ratio, however not nearly enough iron to do anything meaningful. The idea, however, is an AC signal into one winding, will create an ever changing magnetism in the nail. The nail would then create an AC signal out the other winding. The ratio of the windings tells the step up or step down of voltage. An output transformer is a step down, in voltage, thus an increase in current and resulting impedance output. The Impedance of an output AC signal would equate to it's ability to resist being changed by a given load.

You can see that the input and output windings must be electrically separate, two different pieces of wire. Any DC resistance less than infinity, between the two windings would indicate a breakdown of insulation between the two. Your showing of 700 ohms, once verified, would indicate failed insulation between the two windings. In audio transformers this is a somewhat common failure mode, because the two windings are interleaved, like a few layers of primary coil, then a layer or two of secondary, then a few more layers of primary, and a couple more of secondary. This is done to cause the transformer to pass signal at various frequencies. A power transformer doesn't have the same issues, because the AC is all at 50-60 hz. A single frequency is a piece of cake, and the nail transformer could even do a fair job at low power levels.

Because the only connection from input to output windings is a magnetic one, a steady DC voltage on the primary does not induce an output on the secondary. Our tubes, being a changing resistor in that circuit, causes the 300-400vdc in that winding to shake, and we have an AC signal of, lets say, 100 or so volts AC riding on top of a 300-400vdc voltage. Think of that 400v as that AC signal's ground reference, in other words, 400v is it's zero, because it is from there that the AC voltage climbs and falls a somewhat equal distance above and below. The transformer does two things. It strips off the DC voltage, and only the AC gets to the secondary, and second, it changes the AC voltage and current. That 100+ volt bounce in voltage might only produce 10vac at the output, but at a higher amperage than the input. An isolation transformer is one with 1:1 winding ratio, and, in a perfect world outputs the same AC that goes in. It's the same job a coupling cap does when it passes AC signal, but stops any DC from going through, which means that each winding could be at a different ground reference, like one at 300vdc and the other at 0vdc, such as the case of an output transformer.

Offline nateflanigan

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Re: A few Orange OD120 questions
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2015, 10:43:03 am »
Hey AZ, thanks for the transformer lesson!  That's some solid wisdom.  Sorry for the slow response but I was waiting for new tubes, and got busy repairing a bandmaster.


I re-measured the primary to secondary impedance, this time I got about 200k.  I don't know what was going on with the first measurement.  I have a new set of EL34's in it now, I checked the bias when I installed the new tubes previously it had only been 16 ma so I re-set that to 35 ma.  I played for about an hour last night with no ill effects.  I think I'd like to get a few more hours of testing before I call it done.


As an aside, if anyone has read this far.  These are GREAT amps, way more versatile than you might think, I think they'd make for a good DIY project.  They're very simple circuits, and the originals are stupid expensive.

 


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