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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current  (Read 6391 times)

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Offline RAJPE

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6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« on: July 03, 2015, 07:34:07 am »
I am new to power amps, trying to help my son in his guitar shop and looking for some retirement income, but I am an engineer so I have some electrical background.  We got a 1972 Fender Bandmaster AC568 in the shop that had bad caps so I did a complete cap replacement.  I also changes the bias balance pot over to bias adjustment pot as Gerald Weber describes in his book.  Checking all the voltages which connect to the output tubes after the repair they seemed to be normal or at least within the allowable variation but when I tested the bias current there was NONE.  I tried several methods (including voltage drop across the resistor, the Hoffman bias checker, etc.) and meters and still nothing.  The AC568 has fixed bias (cathode grounded.)  Any ideas what to do from here?

Thanks for your input, RAJPE

Offline sluckey

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 09:10:20 am »
Does the amp make any sound?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline kagliostro

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 01:29:31 pm »
Just to be sure about that

your tester was set for mV or mA when you try to measure the current across the 1R resistor ?

K
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 05:15:09 pm »
First let us be clear on our terminologies: the amount of BIAS CURRENT (using that term literally) is indeed actually very near to zero. The act of "biasing" a tube places a negative (relative to the cathode) "choke off" or "control" voltage on the first grids of the output tubes. Without that "choking" action, the large positive voltage on the plates and the near-ground or near-zero volts on the cathodes would result in those output tubes passing MASSIVELY more current than they can safely handle. The plates would glow red and in short order, if the fuse did not blow, those tubes would burn up or otherwise destroy themselves in any one of several ways. When this condition exists or partially exists, we call this "redplating".


So what I am saying is that if you are of an engineering background you may be in fact properly understanding the term "bias current" but in large part, we do not care what "bias current" actually is. It is miniscule. Bias only places a charge on the control grids and within the bias circuit itself, there is (or there should be) literally "no" current.


But what *is* absolutely salient is that this charge, this amount of volts, acts as "gatekeeper" on the current flow from cathode to plate. We measure the CATHODE or PLATE current in the tube which RESULTS FROM the application of that gatekeeper bias voltage. And THAT we care deeply about.


We generally assume that ALL current, every single electron passing from ground, up to the cathode and then transiting the tube, landing on the plate, is a unity. In fact, some current is bled off via the screen grid connection, but for 95% of our activities, we tend to ignore that current and simply assume that cathode current is the same as plate current. That's all for now on this small point.

So I hope that distinction becomes clear. We frankly do not care about "bias current". We adjust "bias voltage" to produce a known range of "plate current" in the whole tube.

So now how to measure this plate current? We generally do not like to measure current, because it forces breaking a circuit somewhere. And traditionally, the way you destroy meters is to measure current. We like even less the idea of interrupting our plate connection because big volts reside there. The cathodes are lashed to ground in a stock Fender, so we can't measure (without interrupting the circuit) there, either. What to do?

The answer is, we insert 1 ohm resistors under the cathodes. We measure volts across those 1 ohm resistors. Every millivolt dropped across those resistors is 1 mil through the tube by ohm's law. The tube has no idea the 1 ohm resistor is there, 1 ohm is less than nothing to a tube. This allows us to stick 2 probes in there and measure/compute tube current and pull our probes away and we are done.


So just to make things entirely and bizarrely clear:
We do not care about "bias current"
We do not especially care about "bias voltage" (though, with experience, we know that we'd like to see about -38 to -45 volts on a pair of 6L6 output tubes, and if we had no meter and no 1 ohm resistors, we'd have to rely on that kind of inaccurate method of measuring bias)
We DO care about TUBE CURRENT or PLATE CURRENT but have a hard time measuring it.
Until we place those 1 ohm R's under the cathodes.
Then we use Voltage dropped across those resistors to figure tube current.

Offline PRR

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 10:57:20 pm »
Proper voltages and no tube *current* can be cold heaters.

Those electrons stay stuck to the cathode until we boil them.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2015, 10:50:47 am »
What to do?

The answer is.........


I just want to say how incredibly informative this is. I learn everything I know from reading and on this forum. Sometimes I read things.... understand them.. but not sure how to word it exactly if I were to explain it. This explanation seriously just confirmed what I thought I knew and gave me a way to explain it should I ever have to.


Thanks!!

Offline RAJPE

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 07:42:42 pm »
Thanks guys for the replies.  I have read many forums but never posted to one and am very impressed at the responses I got.  Thanks again.
I have noticed that reading books, forums and misc. internet sources that there has always been a tidbit that was left out.  For instance I read "Be sure you have a speaker plugged in" when adjusting the bias.  My question is why? Will it damage the amp in some way or will it give me a erroneous reading?  Posting to a forum is sometimes the only reasonable way to find out the answer to these questions unless you have a friend in the business that will help you out. 

Unfortunately when I began helping my son he already had amps in the shop to be repaired and I had to get started before I was completely setup for the task.  I am in the process of buying more equipment and a test speaker but so far I don't have it together.  He assured me that most of the jobs were simple but the first few were not so.  Anyway, my post asks about this Bandmaster because I completed a complete capacitor renewal and conversion to Blackface according to Gerald Weber's book and was following the final checkout of voltages, etc. when I found the problem of the bias current.  I double checked and triple checked my work that I had done and used three separate meters to make sure that it wasn't one of them giving me bad readings.  Every pin voltage on the power tubes checked out but I just could not read the current to calculate plate dissipation.  Therefore I wondered if not having a speaker load could be the problem.  I also questioned if I could properly read current using a probe which diverts the pin 8 wiring through a multi-meter if pin 8 is grounded (fixed bias.)  Or maybe is there something else I am missing.

By the way, I am an Agricultural Engineer, so I know about cows, barns, irrigation systems, earthwork, pumps and motors.  Electronics is not my bag but I have a working knowledge and am willing to learn. My goal here is to learn the correct procedure and to be more proficient at the work. 


Offline shooter

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2015, 08:13:19 pm »
Quote
Agricultural Engineer

You'll fit in fine, there are guys here that like tractors and produce :icon_biggrin:

And the combined brain trust should get you through most amp issues as a bonus
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline PRR

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2015, 08:34:15 pm »
Ideally you "never" power-up a tube amp without a load. (An 8 Ohm 50W dummy resistor is often convenient.)

In practice it should not matter, because the amp-under-test is putting NO signal to the load. (And if it is, then you should not be measuring bias.)

Offline sluckey

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 08:36:05 pm »
You need a speaker load or an equivalent dummy load connected to the amp when performing most power on checks. You risk doing expensive damage to the amp without a load. It's also a very good idea to check that an amp is working properly after a cap job (or any other corrective maintenance) BEFORE doing any modifications.

You still haven't said if the amp even works, ie, produces guitar sound. I asked that question because your answer determines which branch of an imaginary troubleshooting flowchart to follow. If you say it produces guitar sound then it's probable that you are not measuring the current correctly. If you say it makes no sound, then we will follow another path flow to another decision block, Did it work before you worked on it? This block will have two path flows depending on that answer. And so on. Most times you can jump way ahead in the flow chart by supplying more detail up front.

As for measuring bias current, you mentioned voltage drop across a resistor (I'm assuming 1Ω resistor between pin 8 of the power tubes and ground) and Hoffman's bias checker. Both methods give accurate results, but the meter readings with either method will be very low. You will measure approx. 30 to 40mV across a 1Ω cathode resistor. This translates to 30 to 40mA current (that's 0.03 to 0.04A). So set your voltmeter to a low mV scale. Hoffman's bias checker reads current directly, so set your meter to a low mA scale. Have you done this?

OK, now I still gotta ask, "Does the amp make any guitar sound?"

BTW, you can usually get a pretty quick reply to your post, sometimes almost real time response, so check back several times a day if you can. I've seen numerous trouble shooting sessions that fixed problems within an hour.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline RAJPE

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 08:45:19 pm »
I need to buy a speaker.  We have lots of amps and guitars in the shop but not a speaker for testing. I brought a small stereo speaker from home and hooked it to the amp and we did not detect any sound.  I have a nice bench type graphing digital meter that I am sure can measure any voltage value I need it to.  I tried to measure current across the 1.5 K resistor connected between pins 1 and 5, thinking about it now, it was probably not the right thing to do.  I have not tried to add the 1 ohm resistor to ground yet.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 6G6 Power Tubes, no bias current
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 09:23:42 pm »
Quote
I tried to measure current across the 1.5 K resistor connected between pins 1 and 5, thinking about it now, it was probably not the right thing to do.
That's correct. That is a meaningless check. You cannot measure current across any component. Current flows through a component (not across it) so you must break the circuit and put an ammeter in series with the component to measure current flowing thru the component. As a result of current flowing thru a component, there will be a voltage dropped 'across' the component. You can measure this voltage across the component, but again, that's a meaningless check on that 1.5K resistor.

The current you want to measure is flowing thru the tube. An easy way to measure it is to pull the tube and insert Hoffman's bias checker in the socket then insert the tube in the bias checker. This breaks the current path but when you connect an ammeter to the leads of Hoffman's bias checker you will now have the meter in series with the tube and it will directly indicate the current flowing thru the tube. You said you did this.

So, use your Hoffman's bias checker again and know that you will have to set the knobs/buttons on your meter to measure approx. 40mA.


A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

 


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