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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: What to do with this PT?  (Read 4357 times)

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Offline VMS

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What to do with this PT?
« on: November 11, 2015, 05:56:46 pm »
Hi guys.

I have this toroidal transformer with following windings:

340V - 0,1A
70V - 0,15A
70V - 0,15A
6,3V - 6,6A

Because the HV winding seems to be relatively high voltage but low current, I'm not sure what I can build with this.

Is my math correct if I approximate that I'll get about 480 VDC and 70 mA from the HV.


Thanks in advance.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 06:00:43 pm »
SS I get @480
Tube I get @400

I'm not good with the current calculations yet.  :dontknow:

Offline PRR

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 11:35:53 pm »
The 70V windings could be put in series with the 340V winding.

What did this come out of? In any case it is likely that the "0.1A" etc is _AC_ not DC.

340V+70V+70V = 480V AC.

Times 1.4 is 672V DC(!!).

The "0.1A"is probably 0.062A DC.

This leads to an amplifier with 21K CT OT, of around 20 Watts audio output.

Note that because you have a *single* winding, a full-tube rectifier is impractical. Good utilization of a single winding means a FOUR-diode plan with three separate cathodes. The voltage is high enuff that the few split-cathode twin rects are at/past limits. This leads to three bottles and three separate heater windings, in addition to your amplifier heaters.

There is a tube/Silicon diode bridge which will work and gives roughly what Paul says (never know with hollow rectifiers).

As you and Paul say, just the 340V winding gives up to 476V DC. Taking 0.062A DC current this leads to a 15K load and around 15 Watts audio output. This again is a fairly unreasonable design; special parts and poor use of tubes. You *could* run two 6L6 near 60mA total and 15 Watts output, but where do you find a 15K (or 12K-20K) OT? Maybe a Hammond 125E (not ESE), but the bass response is liable to be poor, because this "universal" (like any OT) is wound for best response at lower impedance. The hi-Z connection saves your butt when fixing a dead radio so it "plays", but may be lame worked as a stage-amp at high levels.

Perhaps the best is a 2-6V6 amp with the usual hollow rectifier plus two 1N4007 (400V DC) and the usual DeLuxe OT. This may draw more than 0.062A (more like 0.090A) but the un-used 70V windings and way-underloaded 6V winding represents a lot of surplus capacity which allows a little more from the 340V winding.

The real problem is "most" of the rated power is in turns you won't use:
340V @ 0.1A = 34VA
70V @ 0.3A = 21VA
6.3V @ 6.6A = 41VA

A 34VA DC power amp will be 2*6V6, 2*EL84, 2*6L6.. 12VA at most. So 3/4 of the 6.3V is just dead weight.

The 70V windings are inconvenient for tube Power amplifiers, more dead weight.

I guess you end up with 44VA of good load, on a 96VA lump. Half waste, but a lump in the hand is a dang sight cheaper than shipping a more-appropriate lump to you. If your roadies don't complain, that is.

Actually there may be a happy set-up. However I experimented with the idea for a while and abandoned it. One 6550/KT88 can be worked single-ended near 650V and 60mA with a 10K load and deliver around 15 Watts (13W clean, 17W guitar-clean). However the 125ESE at 10K drops-off the bottom octave of guitar. And the screen really wants to be nearer 300V (else G1 bias and drive get absurd), which leads to multiple supplies. Ah, you need multiple supplies because feeding 600V to your 12AX7 is rude and accident-prone. It gets complicated fast.

Put two dozen 12AU7 together and build an organ.

Or a 44-stage distorter.

Offline trobbins

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 03:19:25 am »
One key advantage of a choke input filter is that you get more W for your winding's VA - as the conduction current is longer.  You may then have enough powering W to entertain larger output stage valves.


By stacking two separate DC supplies in series you can get a screen/preamp voltage rail, and an output stage voltage rail.  Eg. the 340V winding can be full-bridge ss rectified with choke filter to give say 300VDC.  That 300V supply would give nigh on the same current rating as a 140V winding which is full bridge rectified but just capacitor input filtered to give say 180V.  Stacked, you could have rails of 480V for PP stage, and 300V for screens and preamps.


Of course you need a choke, but heh you also need lots of other parts too for an amp!


PS. there are some TV line valves that like low screen voltages (6CD6G) and have high heater currents - worth a look too!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 03:25:43 am by trobbins »

Offline VMS

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 04:02:06 am »
Thanks guys. Yes I was thinking that maybe those 70V windings could be used as G2 screen voltage on some bigger bottle.

When I bought this transformer I also bought two russian GI-30 (GU-30) tubes so maybe my thought was to build something with one of them. It was years ago so I can't remember anymore.

Question: is that 0,062 A current limit for idle condition or do I need figure out the max input signal current draw?


Offline trobbins

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2015, 04:58:22 am »
Guitar amp sag sounds like a good application. 


But appreciate that you won't normally achieve 340V x 0.1A = 34W if capacitor filtering, more likely middle 20's.  You may find some rule-of-thumb PF levels to multiply the nominal VA level by.

Offline VMS

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 06:01:30 am »

But appreciate that you won't normally achieve 340V x 0.1A = 34W if capacitor filtering, more likely middle 20's.  You may find some rule-of-thumb PF levels to multiply the nominal VA level by.

That is fine, I'd be happy with lower watt design.

I do have one hammond 125ESE output transformer so maybe one option could be a SE amp.

... or ignore the 340 winding and build a low voltage high current amp with 140V winding, if that is possible.

Decisions, decisions....

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2015, 11:47:09 am »
Hi guys.

I have this toroidal transformer with following windings:

340V - 0,1A
70V - 0,15A
70V - 0,15A
6,3V - 6,6A

Because the HV winding seems to be relatively high voltage but low current, I'm not sure what I can build with this.

Is my math correct if I approximate that I'll get about 480 VDC and 70 mA from the HV.


Thanks in advance.
PT design seems dubious...  :dontknow:


if it were mine: a 6550/KT88 SE idling at around 25W. PT loaded should deliver around 450V B+.


450V B+ with ~ 33V Vg-k, so 417Va-k / 60mA = 25W. use a 7K load. start with  560R for Rk. Rk will dissipate 2.7W at full power so, use 5W part. 10W if you want cooler running part.


--pete

Offline octal

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2015, 03:06:04 pm »
WHy not wire one of the 70V windings in series, out of phase with the 340V winding? Net voltage =270 Ac, for circa 380V out. Perfect for a 6V6 push pull amp of some sort.




Offline VMS

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 05:58:52 am »
if it were mine: a 6550/KT88 SE idling at around 25W. PT loaded should deliver around 450V B+.


450V B+ with ~ 33V Vg-k, so 417Va-k / 60mA = 25W. use a 7K load. start with  560R for Rk. Rk will dissipate 2.7W at full power so, use 5W part. 10W if you want cooler running part.


--pete

Seems like a good option. Would I have to drop the G2 voltage to near 250V?


WHy not wire one of the 70V windings in series, out of phase with the 340V winding? Net voltage =270 Ac, for circa 380V out. Perfect for a 6V6 push pull amp of some sort.

That's a great tip, thanks. I didn't know this was possible but after searching the internet apparently it is.


Thanks for the ideas and if you guys have more keep them coming.


What do you guys think about this 807 SE idea? With the 340V winding and 125ESE 5k I could get pretty close to those figures, right?


Offline DummyLoad

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 09:31:26 am »
Seems like a good option. Would I have to drop the G2 voltage to near 250V?

no.

--pete

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 10:20:02 am »
807 is a 6l6g/ga with a plate cap. you probably already know that though... just repeating. also 6bg6 is sweep rated 6l6g/ga with plate cap. neither plate cap tubes suffer from pin 2-3 arc like 6l6/kt88/el34 do.


the 200V on g2 is a very conservative condition. on a PSUD II simulation your PT loaded will be around 450V maybe even less. however, it is a toroid so regulation is better than conventional E-I cores and you might see slightly more that at 80-90% of rated load.


--pete




Offline PRR

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 03:29:50 pm »
> 807 SE idea?

Note that 6L6GC will work in nearly any 807 plan.

IMHO, if you run G2 up past 400V (double what it needs), you have to also run G1 twice as low, perhaps -30V, and you may need near 30V peak of drive (which is not too hard).

Also note that 807 *spec* only allows 250V-300V(?) on G2, though I know this can be violated a lot, and 6L6GC allows 450V on G2.

Offline VMS

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 05:31:11 pm »
If I were to drop the G2 voltage on the 807 plan, would this high current voltage divider work?

I'm not sure how much current should flow in the divider to keep the G2 voltage stable. In my circuit it is approx. 10mA, is that enough? Do I need more or would I get away with less?

Also not sure about the bypass cap value????

Offline PRR

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 05:53:12 pm »
> how much current should flow in the divider to keep the G2 voltage stable

Single-ended?

The sheets I find do not show a variation from idle to full power. This can't be correct (look at the huge variation for push-pull operation). However the 22uFd is fairly generous and should hold-up through guitar transients.

Offline VMS

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Re: What to do with this PT?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2015, 06:33:05 pm »
This datasheet shows the curves for the SE with plate 250V and screen 250V (page 33):

http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~dxt103/audio/807/807STC.pdf

Screen current goes from 5,4 to 8,7 mA. Plate current from 75 to 77,5 mA

Can we conclude from these figures what would happen if the plate voltage was +450V ?


 


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