Marshall Super Lead/Bass shrill high end

[nateflanigan]

Hellos, and merry christmas!


I'm re-capping an early 70's big box Marshall Super Bass/Lead for a friend.  The chassis says it's a super bass but he believes it was converted to super lead component values at some point.  I haven't traced everything out to verify this, and I'm not sure that I care to.  Generally the amp sounds good, but my friend complained about the high end being kind of shrill and unpleasant.  Plugging into my Orange 2x12 with vintage green backs (which is a pretty dark boomy cab) I'd have to agree I found myself turning the presence all the way down. 


Aside from the normal recapping, replacing power resistors etc, what should I be looking at?  Those cathode bypass caps are such unusual values (I see a lot more fenders on my bench).  Googling around, it seems shrillness is a common problem but I haven't come across a common solution.


Thanks!

[guitardude57]

Howdy,


With all the schemos out there, (a good selection here) it is pretty easy to check values...so you know what circuit you have.
Compare what you have, with the schematics, is the place to start.
Check your cathode bypass caps, and any common cathodes, or not... will tell you if bass or guitar circuit...


Any wrong values will give you the wrong tones.


Merry Christmas!

[tubenit]

Do a search on enhance cap which is a paralleled cap across the LTPI plate resistor usually a value of 120p - 220p.  Other options are smoothing caps on preamp gain stages.

Speaker of course makes a difference. 

With respect, Tubenit

[nateflanigan]

Very interesting, I'm not sure what caps I have on hand but, I'll get into it tomorrow.


Digging into the schematics a little more, I noticed the super lead has double bright caps on the bright channel.  I desoldered the extra one (it was easy to get to) this helped quite a bit.  You still need to jumper the channel to get a balanced tone, but there's nothing wrong with that.

[HotBluePlates]

What channel is your friend playing through? Is he jumpering the channels?

[nateflanigan]

Yes.  The bass, or normal channel is very bassy and the bright is very bright.  To be clear, it's not like it's unusable, in fact the amp sounds pretty awesome, there's just some shrillness in the upper high end that was very hard to dial out.  Even playing thorough my orange 2x12 (with old greenbacks) which is a pretty dark cab.  Lifting the extra bright cap seems to reign it in. 


I also removed the pre- PI MV (an previous mod) and added a Lar/Mar.  This was a big improvement as well, as he was playing the amp with channels jumpered, each on about 1.5.  Just being able to bring up the input gain adds a lot of body to the tone.


Merry Christmas ol' pals.

[HotBluePlates]

... The bass, or normal channel is very bassy and the bright is very bright.  ... there's just some shrillness in the upper high end that was very hard to dial out.  ...

Dead-normal for these amps.

I used to have a '73 50w Marshall, and that's just how it sounds. You simply jumper the channels together with a little patch cord at the input jacks and play through both channels all the time. Adjust the volumes of the two channels relative to each other to control your basic tone from the amp.

I also tended to play with the Presence near zero. That was also with a Strat. Boosting the presence doesn't really add much unless you've got the amp cranked anyway and you're going for more distortion.

I got rid of that amp (and a 100w straight-front cab with G12H30's) not because it didn't sound great, but because I could only turn it up as much as 5-6 on rare occasions, and it's an amp to crank up.

Separately, look up Billy Gibbons' Rig Rundown on youtube; Billy generally cranks a Marshall, keeps everything at Max except the Treble, which is all the way off.

[nateflanigan]

Separately, look up Billy Gibbons' Rig Rundown on youtube; Billy generally cranks a Marshall, keeps everything at Max except the Treble, which is all the way off.

That was great.  It's sort of amazing how different a pro stadium rig is from a normal guitar rig.  Even conceptually, like how they want all the guitars to sound the same.  Someday I gotta try putting some 7's or 8's on a guitar just to see what it's all about.

[PRR]

> how different a pro stadium rig is from a normal guitar rig.

We need more stadiums.

There's a lot of amps still alive which were aimed at BIG-venue work in the days of poor PA. Playing these in clubs is like running a racehorse in your basement. You either walk him hobbled to donkey-speed, or you have massive jockey damage.

In England they have Track Days. Pay a few bucks, they let you drive on a real race-car track. While you can rev your Honda 600 to a blistering 58MPH, fanatics bring Supras, Lambos, and even special-built hardly-legal cars out and run far over 100. Just for fun.

The football palaces could pick up a few summer bucks with a program like this. "Run your SVT or mega-Marshall wide-open like it was meant to be played!!" Little stage, a few bright lights, and beer/hotdog sales in the far bleacher (where the racket finally comes into focus).

[clyde]

I saw Buddy Guy a few years back in a small baseball stadium.  He was playing his trademark polka dot Strat through an older Marshall, not sure of the model, whatever his rider specified I suppose or something similar.  It was flat-out the worst ice-pick-in-the-ear tone I've ever heard, in fact it was the worst guitar tone I'd ever heard, period.  I'd never been a huge Marshall fan for this reason and this just cemented it further.   

[Willabe]

Buddy's been doing the Marshall amp on and off for years and yes it sounds terible. I've heard/seen it in person, up close in 500 to 1000 seat/standing room only bars/clubs.

I think he does it for 'eye' effect, WOW look he's playin through a Marshall Stack like Jimi, that old blues guy is hip!

I have an old friend, Dave Spector, blues guitarist/band leader, he has 7 or 8(?) CD's out over the years. He plays at Buddy's club for years now and told me when he play's there if Buddy's in town Dave brings an extra Fender amp and Buddy sits in with his band. Dave said he sounds great just like on the old Muddy Waters and Buddy and Jr. Wells albums.

So he's still got but to reach younger audiences he stands that big ol Marshall stack up on stage.        

[Ritchie200]

I've heard people dis on Marshalls from time to time and I don't know if its a Ford-Chevy thing or rooted in fact from a bad experience.  Some of the crappiest noise I have ever heard emanated from a Fender.  I've also heard some squealy icepick from a Marshall.  However, I go back to operator or equipment error in all cases. 

To the Marshall haters, take a look at the 70's: Trower, Rush, Foghat, Kansas, Kiss, Van Halen, Humble Pie, ZZ Top, on and on...  Virtually everyone had them on their back line and in the studio - even the Jackson 5.  Lots of fantastic sounding music there.  I've seen most of these bands live and they sounded great.  I played out with both the 50 and the Major and I would not trade them for another.  My first "big" amp was an early 60's Bandmaster, I sold it.

I also saw Nugent with his wall of Twin Reverb Fenders and was not all that impressed - yet Toy Caldwell made them sing so sweet!  You only need to compare the mighty Marshall-Clapton in John Mayall or Cream to the lifeless plink-plink-plink with his change in early 70's to Fenders.  Man those Fenders sound like crap!!!! Right?   Where would surf music be without the wonderful chime of the Fender?  How about Larry Carlton, Steve Howe, Brian Setzer, Mike Bloomfield, James Burton, Stevie Ray, Neil Young - all in the Fender army, and I'd say they did quite well for themselves! 

I think I could manage to make the best amp in the universe sound like crap.  I am also quite sure that if it was capable, I could make it sound smooth and sweet or aggressive and raw.  I do have my favorites, but Marshall and Fender didn't sell a bazzilion amps because they sounded like crap.

PRR, I like that!  Track day for the big thumpers!  Hey, they have nostalgia drag races, why not amp day at the local auditorium!

Jim

[shooter]

PRR, I like that!  Track day for the big thumpers!  Hey, they have nostalgia drag races, why not amp day at the local auditorium!

best quote for the year?

I could manage to make the best amp in the universe sound like crap

I know my amp is *dialed* in when I sound good

[Ritchie200]

I'm re-capping an early 70's big box Marshall Super Bass/Lead for a friend.  The chassis says it's a super bass but he believes it was converted to super lead component values at some point.  Thanks!

Nate,

I am assuming that you are talking about the chassis label on the back of the amp? Back in the early 70's Marshalls were flying off the shelves.  Many times amps were changed mid-build to fill an order.  I have heard of a few that got out miss labeled sometimes using gold Dymo labels to cover the print, but they are rare.  My Major has the paper tag saying it is a bass model and it is a lead.  What does the paper tag say (if it is still there)?  Most likely it was modded over the years, but you never know.  Again, you will need to do some circuit tracing!

Like HBP says, these amps need to breathe.  If you have them on 1.5 or 2 they WILL sound thin and spikey.  Throw some pillows in front of your cabinet and let it rip.  I bet you will find a completely different animal.

Jim

[2deaf]

Like HBP says, these amps need to breathe.  If you have them on 1.5 or 2 they WILL sound thin and spikey.  Throw some pillows in front of your cabinet and let it rip.  I bet you will find a completely different animal.

That's right.
One hundred watt tube amps with at least three preamp stages, some serious bass cut, and turned-up to ten sound incredibly similar.  We always modified amps to meet those conditions and then the difference between Fenders and Marshalls became readily apparent:  The Marshalls would suffer catastrophic failures and the Fenders wouldn't.

Pillows don't do much with a full stack.

[Ritchie200]

Hmmm, I can tell the difference between a 6L6 an EL34 and a KT88 when they are humping with my eyes closed in a drunken stupor.  We are talking about a Super Lead here, not a master volume setup reproducing some 12ax7 fuzz.  I've also never run across anyone ever having issues running an early Marshall hard?  Other than the usual tube issues that all amps see when turned up.  Those years were right in my wheelhouse when I was playing out.  I also had lots of friends who played Marshalls, nobody ever complained - and we played LOUD!  The only Marshall well known for letting the magic smoke out is the Major - but that's a different setup altogether. 

Nate has a 2x12 Orange cabinet, very easy to pillow up!

Jim

[nateflanigan]

I am assuming that you are talking about the chassis label on the back of the amp? Back in the early 70's Marshalls were flying off the shelves.  Many times amps were changed mid-build to fill an order.  I have heard of a few that got out miss labeled sometimes using gold Dymo labels to cover the print, but they are rare.  My Major has the paper tag saying it is a bass model and it is a lead.  What does the paper tag say (if it is still there)?  Most likely it was modded over the years, but you never know.  Again, you will need to do some circuit tracing!

Yeah, the chassis has super bass printed on the back.  I didn't notice a paper tag, but I'll keep an eye out for it.  I got curious and traced the circuit, it's pretty much fully converted to super lead specs, some one added the JCM 800 style MV as a mod at some point.


IMHO, lifting that extra bright cap and converting the MV to a Lar/mar has really solved the high end issue.  I can actually use the presence control and I can turn the inputs up to around 5 or 6 and use the MV to bring it down to around band practice volume.  It sounds totally bitch'n.  I was thinking about fussing with the bypass cap on the driver tube but I really don't think it's necessary anymore.

[clyde]

This is my setup for my builds, works great.  Yes Jim, there are some great Marshall sounds out there, no disputing that, but the volume involved is pretty massive.  I've never been able to achieve those tones, then again I don't play a Les Paul either. 

[Ritchie200]

No need if you have THIS 

Jim

[Ritchie200]

Nate,

Make sure you tell your friend this is a multi-thousand dollar custom boo-tique mod to the stars that is so good it will scare the tone right out of his fingers!  Being a friend, you will only charge him $750!

Jim

[Ritchie200]

PRR, I like that!  Track day for the big thumpers!  Hey, they have nostalgia drag races, why not amp day at the local auditorium!

I could manage to make the best amp in the universe sound like crap

I know my amp is *dialed* in when I sound good

Does this mean if you *break out* your Malmsteeen runs sound like crap and have to go home early?
Does this mean if you *red light* you are not in time with the beat and you have to go home early?

Tip your waitresses, we are here all week!
Jim

[shooter]

not in time with the beat

I am NEVER in time with the beat!, that's why is just build-'em

[2deaf]

Hmmm, I can tell the difference between a 6L6 an EL34 and a KT88 when they are humping with my eyes closed in a drunken stupor.  We are talking about a Super Lead here, not a master volume setup reproducing some 12ax7 fuzz.  I've also never run across anyone ever having issues running an early Marshall hard?  Other than the usual tube issues that all amps see when turned up.  Those years were right in my wheelhouse when I was playing out.  I also had lots of friends who played Marshalls, nobody ever complained - and we played LOUD!  The only Marshall well known for letting the magic smoke out is the Major - but that's a different setup altogether.

Easy, dude.  I was agreeing with you.

I can tell the difference between overdriven tubes, also.  I even have a favorite set of EL34's that I only use for recording.  It's just that four big bottles clipping have a distinctive sound to them.  Turning a 100 watter up to 10 is kind of like a cure-all for a lot of those amps.  I have a JCM 900 that I consider unusable at lower volumes, but it sounds pretty good dimed.  It's like you said about being a different animal.

I'm glad that you had good luck with your Marshalls.  I didn't.

[jojokeo]

I always blame the mixing board people whenever I can...  But in all honesty, as I say in golf, it's the archer not the arrows that's at fault. Poor ol' Buddy Guy likely doesn't have a whole lot of "top end" to his ears anymore, hence the extreme settings he used that he thought was good?!

I'm not sure if this is the exact circuit but doesn't matter as this is "the usual Marshall" circuit with 4 inputs along with what I immediately do for the over the top brightness I detest, and makes them MUCH more useable and not just "player friendly" but audience friendly also. It can also eliminate the necessity of jumper channels (oooh sacrilege)...

I will say that when a speaker is pumping & thumping it will take on a different character becoming more full-toned but directly in front of that beam can be water boarding torture.

[Ritchie200]

Easy, dude.  I was agreeing with you.

I can tell the difference between overdriven tubes, also.  I even have a favorite set of EL34's that I only use for recording.  It's just that four big bottles clipping have a distinctive sound to them.  Turning a 100 watter up to 10 is kind of like a cure-all for a lot of those amps.  I have a JCM 900 that I consider unusable at lower volumes, but it sounds pretty good dimed.  It's like you said about being a different animal.

I'm glad that you had good luck with your Marshalls.  I didn't.

Sorry brother!  I thought you were comparing the Super Lead to a 800 or a Soldano or Mesa.  Seriously, we even used to play on a boat that ran the Mississippi and rarely saw a steady voltage and never had a problem.  THAT would qualify as amp abuse!    Other than output tubes, I never had an issue and I used to retube all my friends Marshalls.  That's what I find hilarious about these guitarists who buy a power brake or other attenuator, run everything dimed and then bitch about how the attenuator screws up their power tubes!  That was life in the 70's!  We used to have some pretty good venues around St. Louis where you could crank them up.


Jojo, I think you may be on to something.  I know I've lost a lot of my top end hearing.  Maybe Buddy thinks he sounds pretty darn good!


Jim


Jim

[Ritchie200]

You know what else amazes me about ALL these amps is that you can plug in a Strat, twist some knobs and sound good.  Then plug in a Les Paul into the same amp, twist the knobs again and sound good.  We can build an amp for our specific guitar(s) and style and tweak to taste, but to build a swiss army amp for public consumption will always be a give and take.  I think these companies did a pretty good job. 


If only they could build something  to make a Tele sound good.....


Jim

[tubenit]

If only they could build something  to make a Tele sound good.....

I saw that!   

[Ed_Chambley]

Dickey Betts and Duane Allman used a Marshall and a Gold Top/SG Humbuckers to record Blue Sky, Mellissa, Elizabeth Reed aon on and on.  The Brothers recorded just like their live setup.

Ice Pick?  I think not.

[clyde]

If only they could build something  to make a Tele sound good.....


Jim

Ouch!  It's called an AC30, or, something like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tl67bVXQpI

[jojokeo]

Meh, sorry - not impressed with the tapping or tone. No offense intended Clyde. Obviously the guy (you?) can play and would've liked something "normal" instead is all. BTW, liked the amp heads in the background. Easily could see the Mercury iron hanging too.