Is there a proper and right way to play the guitar?

[Ritchie200]

I would like to expound on the above subject as we scratched the surface on another thread.  I stated that I have not heard anything new in guitar in the last 30 some years.  Sluckey said 40.  I said that in this age of youtube tutorials and tabs, and I'll even expand on that with schools such as GIT and the like, these new players are a bunch of clones.  Not to be the old old old guy bitching... Back in my day you slowed the record down to 16 and maybe you didn't get it quite right, but that fail contributed to YOUR own unique style.  Jojo mentioned that a Jazz teacher he had was changing HIS style because his technique wasn't proper and the "right" way.  I've been playing for over 50 years and I've never had a lesson.  I do not read music.  I was, however, blessed with a very good ear.  I can listen to just about any song one or two times and have the guitar down.  Yes I can tell you some of the notes on the neck, but that's it.  I can play all sorts of chords but have no clue as to what they are and I probably have my fingers in the wrong place.  My hands are big enough to bar a chord with my thumb and I use it all the time on the E and A.  I am so far away from "traditional" that I don't think I could go back at this point.  However, and I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back, I do not sound like anyone else.  I'm not trying to pat myself on the back because I am sure there are many who would say I suck big time.  Heck all you have to do is post something on youtube and look out!  But I don't care.  I really don't.  Looking back, I had a pretty darn successful career as a unsigned musician and had many fans.  My old bass player from many bands we were in back in the day (who is a very successful road and studio player in LA who has played with and for some huge names), said I didn't want it bad enough.  Maybe so, but I have no regrets.  So I was able to accomplish this with my very limited ability and not a "traditional" player.  Did this lack of ability hold me back?  Maybe so, but I'm not so sure...  So, is there a "right" way?  Ask the Reverend Billy Gibbons or Brian May if a coin is acceptable for a pick?  Ask Stanley Jordan or EVH if using two hands on the fretboard is right?  Ask Jimi if feedback and whammy bar acrobatics are acceptable?  Is it acceptable to mix country and rock?  Ask the Allman Bros or Marshall Tucker.  So my round about point is between the rigid teachings of each style and the clones of recent years, where the heck are the ground breakers?  Will we see someone break through in our lifetime to take it to the next level?  In my humble opinion, we hit a brick wall about 30 years ago.  I am wondering if the information age has stifled creativity because it is too easy to copy someone else.


Anyone else care to weigh in?


Jim

[Ed_Chambley]

Sure, I'll bite.  No, I do not consider any instrument having a correct way of playing it or if stringed, no correct tuning either.  Now you may not like it and neither do I, but when Nirvana hit the scene and Smells Like Teen Spirit was voted the Best Guitar Song of the year by Rolling Stone mag, I got the cd so I could listen.  Well it seems there is a chord that is out of key, so does that make it wrong?  To some.  In that time in Seattle as the Grunge was developing, it was new.  Very common for 4 major cords to be played.  E,G,D,A all major.  Now musically, we have ways of "correcting" these things so they can be charted.

Some may say it is wrong.  Other may not think it was innovative, but it sure was.  The guitar solo was given up.  Oh the horror.  It cannot be good music.  The tune Vaseline by STP was not much more than a single hammer on.  Do these guys have any clout compared to EVH, Randy Rhodes.  If you were 16 years old during this time you would have and still will favor this music.  They got all the 3 finger makeup wearing, girly looking guitar players begin to seek for something else.  Even this was 25 years ago.

Certainly easier access to lessons and learning is going to create more clones, but we have always had those.  Does it cause it, I am not sure.  I believe since most popular music these days is created and controlled that there are only a handful of people churning out music.  The music we hear today is not necessarily from working on your chops and playing dives long enough to develop the  needed skills to get into the studio and record and not wast time.  Today, all is needed a player and it the player makes mistakes, they simply fix it in the software.

There are a lot of innovative players, but you will not hear much from them on today's media outlets because a true dedicated musician will not work and do a tour and end up owing money after the tour because the signed a Goo Goo Dolls contract. 

In 2001 a movie brought Union Station's music mainstream.  These guys were certainly not new and you would have never been exposed to their songs had it not been for the Popularity of the movie Man of Constant Sorrow.  Most people I know thought this was a new song.

The times change and with the technology we have today I really do not see the vast majority of younger folks having a great interest in playing music.  There are some examples, but not like when I was a kid.  It is a solid fact that in Urban Areas the DJ musician by far is a bigger draw in clubs.  As we begin to learn the results of the causes smart phones and social media is having on society, we are learning most people, especially those who are younger, desire instant gratification.  Playing music does not fall into this category.  It takes work.  It is simply a fact the better player you are the harder you have worked.

We are also finding when someone receives a text that it releases dopamine in the brain.  It feels good.  It is truly amazing the results that we are learning. So to gain quick access and to get that vastly needed approval because you feel you life sucks because all you friends on Facebook seem to be doing great all the time, that a new for of depression has developed.  So I guess if I were of this group that I too would learn how to play something someone teaches note for note on youtube.  Then I can play it on Facebook so everyone can applaud.  Then I look like I have something going on.

How is it possible for someone to create their own style when all their time is spent looking at their phones?  Do I believe this has stifled individual creativity?  What do you think?

[Ritchie200]

Thanks Ed!  While I agree with much of what you say, I do think grunge was just history repeating itself rather than something new.  Surf and bebop was replaced by flowers and beads was replaced by self indulgent masters replaced by punk replaced by good time hair replaced by grunge replaced by?  It's backlash to (possibly?) define a generation. I am being very general in my descriptions. I still believe the 70's was the greatest era in music because of the MANY diverse styles that I have not seen in any decade previous or since.


What's the saying?  The music business if full of corrupt and greedy people set on ripping you off and destroying your career - and that's just your record company. Has money and the record company played a part in destroying creativity?  While there have always been formulas, again I don't see the diversity in music that I've seen years past. I have been hoping that Internet publishing and downloads would help spread a more diverse spectrum of music but I don't see that either.


 What I do see are a lot of young people watching old concert videos from the 70's on YouTube who comment that they wished they had been alive to see this band or this performance.  That they didn't realize how cool their parents or even grandparents music was. They comment that this is REAL music without the artificial electronic beats and auto tuned vocals. They comment about the creativity and live without a net feel!  Maybe we are poised for another backlash shift?


But again my point is, where are the Beatles? The Jimis? The black Sabbaths? The Bostons?  The Van Halens?  Where are the musicians that make you sit up and go, "Oh my gosh! I've never heard ANYTHING like THAT before!"


Jim

[drgonzonm]

i am also biting,

IMO, there are easier techniques,  and there are harder techniques. What we understand as a correct way, hopefully teaches the easier techniques, this includes transitioning between chords.  Then we can cheat, and use capos and cut down on the number of chords to learn. Or which F chord should I use?    I have large hands and find most guitars difficult to play, that is one reason, I like a classical guitar neck and bass.

I knew a studio bass player, (O. Joe Gonzales)  who was classically trained as a cellist, and tuned his bass in fifths, preferred fretless basses.  His music buddies in the business included the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane and Janis.  was he playing incorrect technique, probably, but he did all the way to the bank.   

Good techniques are usually shared among several guitarists, that is similar fingering patterning for the same chord.  this allows easier sharing of left hand knowledge between players, the players can concentrate on the right hand, timing, beers, cigarettes, etc., you know, the other important things.   

I've heard some excellent guitar from people who lost digits, or have tips of fingers removed due to accident.  If only correct technique is acceptable, then which level of hell do we condemn the player to for not playing by the rules?

I haven't even said anything about right hand technique, and do play with your pinkie? I play wrong, because I use my pinkie to pluck the high E string.    I guess when I die, I will make sure to take my ice making machine with me. 

If you play guitar "wrong", but you like your owning playing who cares, if a maestro does it different. 

great thread, and all you out there enjoy playing wrong.   

[Ritchie200]

My bass player friend, that I mentioned above, is left handed.  His family did not have extra money to invest in his musical aspirations growing up.  So, he used a right handed bass and turned it over.  However, he didn't change the strings, so they were "backwards" as well.  The Alembic bass he plays now as well as some custom 6 string monstrosity   he has from Finland is also "wrong".  He is ordering another fretless "wrong".  As a session guy, he reads music (obviously), and transposes those notes in his head backwards on his bass.  He can play stuff that would make Stanley Clark look in slow motion.  He was bored to tears playing ZZ Top and Foreigner and so many other simple thud thud thud rock tunes back in the day.  We did some Jeff Beck stuff, like Freeway Jam and Sly's Wanna Take You Higher (the way Hendrix would have!), to keep him interested.  But I just had a feeling he was destined for greater things than what we were doing.  He toured with several Motown acts and has now played on many big name hits over the years.  He had a solo top selling Jazz album in Europe for over a month a few years ago.  To keep him grounded I tell him, "Wow, so all 12 Jazz fans over there bought your CD?"   Hey what are fiends, I mean friends for!


So, here is another guy who played all "wrong", and was a success.  I can also tell when he is playing!


Jim

[shooter]

I'll bite outta phase n frequency
guitar players and painters are both artists, there are many commonalities, we have the same discussion, a classic artist hasn't changed since the renaissance
same methods, same oils, same turpentine.  But, the artistic "twist" that each artist adds, makes the audience get up and dance, buy a disk or a canvas.  I'm a musical user, not performer, couldn't tell you a C chord from a minor 7th, but if my foot taps and a pretty lady wants to dance, you, the band, nailed it.   

[tubenit]

Playing wrongs examples that I can think of that I love!

Richie Havens with open tuning and playing just with his thumb

! No longer available

Dave Hole playing his slide guitar "the wrong way"

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Albert King playing with the tuning upside down and heavy E facing the floor

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Albert Collins playing in a minor F# with a capo on

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IF it gets my foot to tapping and the guitarist is having fun with it ........................  "it ain't the wrong way to me!"

With respect, Jeff

[tubenit]

Jeff Healey playing guitar sitting down with his hand positioned the "wrong way"

! No longer available

[TIMBO]

Thanks T, Liken the Jeff Healey stuff.

[SILVERGUN]

This is just wrong....
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4

[BetterOffShred]

This is just wrong....
 

I saw a guy live in like 2000 that played a 4 string Ovation electric/acoustic bass through a Gibson EchoPlex, and he would lay down percussion parts on the body and loop them with the plex, and then layer parts, and use a bow and all kinds of stuff, really cool.  I think his name was Darin Shaffer or something similar.. the album was called "Reflect".  Lots of people doing it now, but he was one of the first I had ever seen.   McKee's style is definitely more organic as he doesn't have to loop. 

In answer to the OP question,   NO.     If you like it, that's the only hurdle you need to really worry about.  And if other people like it, well that's just a bonus.   I'm certainly in the "Unorthodox methods lead to Unique sounds" camp when it comes to playing the guitar.  I like the guy's like Albert King and Otis Rush who just flipped the guitar over and went to town.   Reggie Wooten also does some strange stuff too.

-Brett

[Ritchie200]

These are all great examples. Notice most of the people we are talking about are older guys. Again, my point is many of the groundbreaking WOW! moments were crafted by unconventional players. So where are the new guys?  Where is the next monster player we will be talking about in 10 years?  Like I said, most sound like GIT clones, yawn...  Been there done that.  I haven't been surprised in a long time.


Jim

[silverfox]

Yes. I'm going to approach this from a mathematical perspective and apply that solution to an artistic application. First, due to the mathematical relationship between frets and pitch you have a limited number of solutions. But what about various harmonics, half tones, (string bends), techniques, instrument designs, you name it, what it comes down to is the same as colors discernible, or resolution. How many shades of red are differentiated until the difference is indistinguishable? The brain will become fatigued and unable to care or differentiate. The power of difference would then depend upon the differentiators ability to search archived history for comparisons sake. And this is where the illusion of unlimited musical composition would appear to blur the lines of discovery vs. sounds like.... what dosen't sound like anymore except the randomization of what has been and even that is a fractal of what was.... I'm High, I'm Mozart, I'm Zappa. I'm? You've answered the question.

But then there's always this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz3JhKXJDTM

silverfox.

[Ed_Chambley]

These are all great examples. Notice most of the people we are talking about are older guys. Again, my point is many of the groundbreaking WOW! moments were crafted by unconventional players. So where are the new guys?  Where is the next monster player we will be talking about in 10 years?  Like I said, most sound like GIT clones, yawn...  Been there done that.  I haven't been surprised in a long time.


Jim

You old buddy buddy, they are playing with their iPhones.  Did you know that 10% of 25 years and younger will reply to a text during sex?  I remember when I was able to do that kind of stuff too.


You mentioned the young people you know like the old stuff and the only young people I know who are not into hip hop or the country hip hop, same thing, are kids of musicians.  Like my friend who I have played with for years, he is a drummer and his son plays.  Last week he was working on some of Cream's work.  He began with Ringo and is learning fast because of his influences.  He doesn't really care for anything currently popular. 


I believe this is because of the strong parental influence and of course yours truly.  I introduced him to Cozy Powell a while back and he sat in on Man on the Silver Mountain recently.  He had it down and was grinning like Ted Nugent with a rifle in one hand and a Byrdland in the other.

[Ritchie200]

I've got great reply for the texting during sex, but I will remain PG.... 

My daughter works at a restaurant part time while going to school.  It is in a weekend "destination" area with scores of classic cars, bikers, bikes, families, etc, etc..  The restaurant plays classic rock.   There is one really nice Harley couple (that I met last summer) who came in one weekend and saw my daughter head bobbing to....Deep Purple Lazy from Made in Japan.  The guy said, "Good song eh?  I bet you don't even know who this is?"  My daughter, not skipping a beat, told him and even mentioned the album.  He stood there incredulous with his mouth open.  His wife said, "Honey, shut your mouth and pay her!"  So then it was a contest.  Every week they would come in and he would ask about one or two songs that were playing...Foghat, Moody Blues, Led Zep, Rory Gallagher, Focus, Genesis, Rainbow, even West, Bruce, and Lang!  The one that really got him was when she identified a Slade song and told him the original was way better than the Quiet Riot version!  She has not missed one yet.  I happened to stop by for some carry out when they were there and he came over and shook my hand and said, "Your daughter is awesome!  You have obviously raised her right!"  She still likes Mumford and son, or sons?  I don't know... But I have exposed her to a LOT of old music.  Much of it she will listen to on her own, as well as some of the new stuff her contemporaries listen to.

My other daughter LOVED Led Zep for about a year when she was 12.  Now she listens to rap...  I tried!

Jim

[silverfox]

Ritchie200". But I have exposed her to a LOT of old music.  Much of it she will listen to on her own, as well as some of the new stuff her contemporaries listen to."

I think this is one of our greatest Heritage Rithchie. That we can Boast of the things we've passed on to our Children. It is the continuation of culture and history. The song of the elders around the campfire.

Okay, just so were all on the same page: I ask my daughter to name me a classic song- She's says, What? I reiterate; She says: Fly me to the Moon! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hxibHJOE5E

Okay, give me a Classic Rock: We are the Champiions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev4pwFMaZQc

Classical: I don't know any she claims! Then: Vivaldi four season, she says... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-W3lfcVvY

I don good, as you also have. Here's another thing I think we pass on: You ain't gonna date anyone like I was.... Final! Hell if that isn't who they bring home to meet Dad.

silverfox.

[Stromberg]

I always know when I'm playing 'right' if three things are happening.

1. Its loud.
2. It's distorted.
3. 3 or 4 hours went by and I didn't notice.

I figure that if you've made that connection with the instrument, and you're able to express yourself with it as spontaneously as if you're talking, who cares about the technical details?

Music is the art of turning emotion into sound into emotion.

[ManisMan]

The right way is the way that doesnt cause long term lasting damage.

People can't naturally contort their bodies, they work up to it.

People that practice to get to that point can do it without damaging themselves.

[Cree]

I was taught, this way is right, bla bla bla. The way you are doing it is wrong, that way is wrong, this way is wrong bla bla bla. I was always doing it wrong. Most of the time I did it on purpose to upset my teacher. So I don't do it right but I still play.

How you like me now Mr. Lee?

Who wanted me to play the thing sitting, with it in between my legs.
Now I'll sling it around my neck, over my head, behind my back, and use the Mic. stand for a slide if I want too, howboutdat!!!!.   

See this is why all these things came to pass, not doing it THE right way. Its the REBEL in us that makes the music WE like the way WE like.

[Ritchie200]

Lasting damage?  Plus no wiser words have been spoken!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5U6xmwyFPs


Jim

[Ed_Chambley]

I changed my mind.  There is a correct way to play guitar, just no one ever does it right!


If you got that long thumb, you can wrap and catch you bass notes which is completely wrong Jimi.  Using 2 hands on the neck like a piano is absolutely incorrect Stanley.  And Chet, whats up with this playing chords bass and melody at the same time.  This is really wrong.  The only guy I know who plays correct is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wLVCLPx0M&list=RDx_wLVCLPx0M#t=0

[SILVERGUN]

Nice,
Now I'm gonna go glue my lap steel to my Tele

[shooter]

gonna go glue

use Velcro, that way you can still separate and play simultaneous

[DummyLoad]

I changed my mind.  There is a correct way to play guitar, just no one ever does it right!


If you got that long thumb, you can wrap and catch you bass notes which is completely wrong Jimi.  Using 2 hands on the neck like a piano is absolutely incorrect Stanley.  And Chet, whats up with this playing chords bass and melody at the same time.  This is really wrong.  The only guy I know who plays correct is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_wLVCLPx0M&list=RDx_wLVCLPx0M#t=0

used to catch that guy at the continental club on congress ave. usually he played with another band herman the german.


--pete

[DummyLoad]

totally unconventional... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeooHiX4oH0

[tubenit]

totally unconventional... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeooHiX4oH0 (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

That's really amazing!  Thanks for sharing it!

Jeff

[Ed_Chambley]

Stanley Jordan tunes to perfect fourths.  This is a huge aid in playing piano style on the neck, but it still aint easy.