Modeling amp retention rate

[tubenit]

I saw this on the Gear Page.  It was interesting to me to see what poor retention rate there is with modeling amps?   I've been watching this modeling amp vs. tube amp debate for a couple of years now.  And have read quite a few threads on did you get rid of your modeling amp and go back to a tube amp question with responding posts. 

My sense is that:

- modeling amps are great for recording
- some modeling amps have quite a learning curve to use and are rather complicated
- most audiences could not tell the difference between modeling amps vs. tube amps with a band playing
- most guitarists can tell a difference and see the tube amps as having a significant amount more of touch sensitivity

I think there are other factors to consider in the survey results.  How often are tube amps replaced by other tube amps?  How difficult is it to sell a used modeling amp & how much of a depreciation loss is there in selling one?

With respect, Tubenit

[robrob]

Since modeling amp technology is advancing at a quick pace their resale value really suffers. Everyone wants the latest, greatest modeling amp.

[shooter]

modeling amps vs. tube amps

My career had me fixin digital and analog 50/50 split, I got to watch both grow a lot!  The %'s might change, but I got the odd thought that if either reach 100%, there will be a world wide skizzzm backward

[silverfox]

We're almost dealing with what amounts to an Heisenberg uncertainty principle, (surprised to find the corrected spelling of Heisenberg in the dictionary). I just had this conversation with someone tonight. What you have is the Artist as the judge determining the closeness of the digital sound to the tube amp sound. When the test is conducted upon the artist, blindfold, often times they can't tell the difference. When the Artist conducts the test they discern the nuance of the tube vs. digital difference. The observer influences the observation or due to the fact the Artist is conducting the test, they know when the subtlety occurs. You need to have a disinterested 3rd party make the determination otherwise the Artists bias will influence the determination.

Rob Chapman has conducted quite a few of these blindfold tests and offers some very entertaining evaluations... He's done the same with cheap guitar vs expensive guitar
The search link is a starting point for research. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chappers+tube+vs+solid+state

As for retention rate of amps: What I've observed, for most of the guitar amp etc... purchasers out there. It's a fashion statement and they don't stick with the art for long as evidenced by the mass sale of used equipment on Craigslist. It's like the spouse buying the Gucci Purse or the Louie Vitton bag for $200.00

silverfox.

[MakerDP]

TGP is known for its members having a severe case of GAS. Pretty fickle bunch of people, in general. If it's not "perfect" they dump it and move on to the next shiny bauble that catches their eye.

I would not use the data from any poll from TGP and assume it applies to the market as a whole.

[Platefire]

tubenit or anyone of you tube amp builders, have any of you tried out one of the new modeling amp to taste test it yourself? I haven't! Just wondered if someone who knows what a good tube amp sounds like on this forum had made a comparison. Seems like as long as this technology has been in existence now, should have been some great strides made by now. Platefire

[MakerDP]

They have come a long long ways in the sound department. Most of the current breed of modellers sound pretty darn good. Where they are still lacking is in the feel or response that tube amp affectionados can't live without. Also cabinet simulations have come a long ways (and in my opinion have made it equal) with impulse response technology.

The Boss Katana, Roland Blues Cube Hot, Stage and Artist and Quilter 101 amps are making a lot of waves in that department though. There are more and more "tube amp guys" defecting over to these amps. The V2 series of the Fender Mustangs are also really really nice, but the new ones are not getting favorable reviews at all.

I am on the fence. Even if you could never tell the difference in a blindfold test between the two, I still lean towards tube amps for the simple reason that they are easily repairable. Modelling amps use so much proprietary technology, SMD circuitry and fast-changing technology that they are basically throw-away products after the warranty expires. Now you are back to square one to get your tone back - and out a ton of $$$. My tube amps will outlive me and my kids.

[Ed_Chambley]

I like all as each has its purpose. For instance, I will play an upcoming show where they do not allow backline so I will be using a processor and line out. This is common as venues now control db levels.
The Kemper folks have done a good job. I am considering an upgrade,  as I still use an older unit.
I prefer amps on stage and the feel and energy. It makes for a better show, but working with younger vocalist who traditionally now come from karaoke type environments cannot deal with the unbalanced stage sound.


Investors know value and I can say tube amps I have sold for a nice profit. In some cases a lot. I have never made profit from selling anything based on bits and bytes except for some rare pedals.


The retention rate I think increases when the gear is purchased for purpose. What I mean is if I have a need to cover sounds and tones of someone this week and next week someone else, I will invest in modeling or profile amps or whatever you want to call it.


For myself, I will change a little at times, but not often. I have been playing for over 40 years starting with a Super Reverb and I still play the same amp. I have a 1987 Marshall plexi. Ac15 and Princeton reverb that are builds. I use these to play what I want to hear.


I am sure I have room for both and will use both. I even have a couple SS amps. The audience cannot tell much anyway because unless they are musicians they really only hear bass and drums.

[Ritchie200]

The audience cannot tell much anyway because unless they are musicians they really only hear bass and drums.

You obviously have the wrong amp!

Jim

[MakerDP]

There's a lot of truth in your statement Ed.

I have basically given up playing on the worship team at my church because of the "no backline, no wedge monitors" mentality. If your goal is a "CD quality house mix" you might as well just play a CD and ditch the band.

[drgonzonm]

There's a lot of truth in your statement Ed.

I have basically given up playing on the worship team at my church because of the "no backline, no wedge monitors" mentality. If your goal is a "CD quality house mix" you might as well just play a CD and ditch the band.

IMHO, worship team falls into the "singing is equiv to praying twice" category.  (All though some of us sing so bad, we only get half credit).  Until recently,
in my church I was using plugging my bass into a dedicated channel on the mixing board, and using my 15w amp as a monitor. [my choir appreciated the monitor feed back]  People playing with the mixing board ruined the monitor availability for everyone, so we now the guitars are heard through microphones (sometimes).  I know how you feel, but it I'll bet its someone higher on the food chain making the decisions and not the those who know the equipment.   I urge you to continue to play with the worship team.  (Its a gift given to you that you share out of thanksgiving). 

[EL34]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between modeling amps
I don't know much about the simple ones that have a fixed number of sounds
Some of the simple ones , the sounds inside are what you get

Some of them like The Kemper are called profiling amps, not modeling amps
You can model anything you like and it will live in your Kemper
You can browse through 1000's of profiles that other users have created and load them into your Kemper
You can dial in profiles to your hearts content and save those profiles
You can buy studio grade profiles and load them


The Kemper has an operating system like a computer that you update when updates are available


So there's a big difference between a simple little modeling box and something like a Kemper

[Ed_Chambley]

Keep in mind that there is a difference between modeling amps
I don't know much about the simple ones that have a fixed number of sounds
Some of the simple ones , the sounds inside are what you get

Some of them like The Kemper are called profiling amps, not modeling amps
You can model anything you like and it will live in your Kemper
You can browse through 1000's of profiles that other users have created and load them into your Kemper
You can dial in profiles to your hearts content and save those profiles
You can buy studio grade profiles and load them


The Kemper has an operating system like a computer that you update when updates are available


So there's a big difference between a simple little modeling box and something like a Kemper

This is true, but Doug, the equipment I am referring to is not POD and line 6 stuff.  When Rocktron hit with the Chameleon and followed by the Voodoo Valve they too had updates, however at this time it was not a automatic Wifi or ethernet connected device.  A lot of the Kemper design takes advantage of modern technology and has simplified these functions. No more downloading firmware for the Voodoo Valve to enable a new Delay feature or a low gain selection, then making sure you had the most current OS then the DOS interface to apply firmware.  When you fire it up, it does this stuff for you.


What I do not understand is what is the difference in a Profile that comes on the Kemper and one you would make.  I would assume nothing.  If I understand the profile is a set or mixture of different circuits attained from the hardware, for instance you select the gain you prefer and the effects you want and the cab sim you prefer or want to use.  After going through thousand of options of each, you save this profile.


On older higher end processors the term preset was used.  Each item in each preset could be managed separately if you wanted to.  For instance, an expression pedal could be a Wah and stereo balance on the same preset.  Even the type of Wah and the upper and lower frequency and if you want it Pre EQ or Post EQ and the tonality you prefer.  It is insane and literally hours can be spent just with Reverb. What I quickly noticed with the newer profile devices especially the Kemper is the manufacturer spent a lot of time making some great profiles.  It is unlimited.  The technology is current, but so was mine when I bought it.  When I bought a JMP-1 it too was state of the art. 


What is true, same as a computer, it will always do what it did when you bought it.  As technology provides more, we naturally adjust and want more of what technology has to offer.  I am using we as a general term, I know some people are not this way.  That is why I term this type of item "upgrading."  I am buying a better or faster more expandable music device.  I always have to weigh the point where to jump in.


So I go check out the Kemper and it is nice, the question is it superior to what I already have.  Considering I can afford one and looked at one it must not be enough better for my use.  Here is where I have trouble.  If it were a Tube amp, say my 73 Super Reverb and I wanted to sell it to get a Deluxe same year.  The Deluxe would cost me more, but my Super Reverb is still worth more than I paid for it.  For now I do not see depreciation on handwired amps.


The decision to change the profiler is different.  It cost new 1072.00 (Today $799.00 so it is cheaper today) and will bring maybe 200 after screwing around with trying to sell it.  So whoopee I got $200 to go towards a Kemper.  Right now the Kemper is the cats meow.  Technology will de-throne this unit with something else and every next aspiring Jimi will get the new one.  You will have yours and it will still do everything it did, plus updates, as when you bought it.  Like my Voodoo Valve, it began at Firmware .08 and right now it is at 3.1 and it had a Motorola Chip Upgrade I did a couple of years ago.


Being sensible about finance one has to ask what will the Kemper do that I cannot do now?  Well, if I had nothing like it it would add a lot.  I too prefer hardware units because they travel just like an amp AND work well with a recording rig. The operation is much easier and this alone should drive sales.  Most of the players I know prefer simple and do not want to learn how to copy patches to different presets, make the adjustments and send the delay to a Quad Box of off and on and a volume boost on another Quad button.  They would rather buy a Delay pedal and put a boost in front. Some folks like to be cutting edge of technology and some the trailing edge.  I like both.

[Ed_Chambley]

The audience cannot tell much anyway because unless they are musicians they really only hear bass and drums.

You obviously have the wrong amp!

Jim

Yep, mine only had 2 KT88's.  You think having 2 more would generate more appreciation for my virtuoso playing


The girls come to dance, the guys come to chase girls and guitar players come to rag on the musicians.  Every time I notice one making comments I invite them to sit in so they can show me how to play correctly.

[sluckey]

This stuff is just like any consumer microprocessor based device. If you want to stay on the bleeding edge of technology you WILL have to replace hardware about every 3 years. That's a big factor in the turnover or retention rate. No different from the PC or cell phone upgrade mentality. Today it's learning profiles. Tomorrow it may be you feed a recording of Honky-tonk Woman into the processor and click a few buttons and the processor will make the adjustments to give you that identical tone. Next year you may be able to feed that same recording into the processor, click a few buttons and have the processor actually play your part for you and simultaneously roll a joint for you! 

[EL34]

A Kemper profile is the captured sound of a real amp
The amp is mic'd up and then Kemper sends a series of signals into the amp

It does a bunch of stuff and captures the results
The mic signal is fed back into the Kemper

That is a basic amp profile
Then you can tweak a million different things to dial it in the way you want it

So you could profile your favorite tube amp and have several profiles for that same amp all tweaked differently
You could profile the amp set up totally clean or totally cranked


But the Kemper feeds different signals and gain levels when it profiles and so the gain knob on the Kemper actually changes the gain of the profile

[MakerDP]

Is the Kemper based on impulse response technology?

Yes there are different flavors of modellers. Things like the Schuman S-Gear plugin... he actually models the tubes and eq circuits in software and it responds to your signal, theoretically, the exact same way your amp does. Other modellers just mess with the sound until it sounds "close enough" to call it what they were after.

[MakerDP]

There's a lot of truth in your statement Ed.

I have basically given up playing on the worship team at my church because of the "no backline, no wedge monitors" mentality. If your goal is a "CD quality house mix" you might as well just play a CD and ditch the band.

IMHO, worship team falls into the "singing is equiv to praying twice" category.  (All though some of us sing so bad, we only get half credit).  Until recently,
in my church I was using plugging my bass into a dedicated channel on the mixing board, and using my 15w amp as a monitor. [my choir appreciated the monitor feed back]  People playing with the mixing board ruined the monitor availability for everyone, so we now the guitars are heard through microphones (sometimes).  I know how you feel, but it I'll bet its someone higher on the food chain making the decisions and not the those who know the equipment.   I urge you to continue to play with the worship team.  (Its a gift given to you that you share out of thanksgiving).

Yeah I hear what you are saying, and I pretty much agree. I was a worship leader for 15+ years and my focus was always on "authenticity" and not this word that gets so abused and misused nowadays: "excellence." I still fill-in from time to time when I there is no one else available but my "music ministry" has shifted focus to the band I play in which honestly is also contributes to why I can't regularly do worship anymore because it is very time-consuming.  So I am still using those gifts, just towards a different "target audience" and purpose.

[shooter]

Next year

The best futurist guess is by 2029 you can upload yourself in a virtual matrix, download back to human form by 2050, by the sounds of this discussion your instrument/sound of choice will be there 1st

[EL34]

Is the Kemper based on impulse response technology?

Yes there are different flavors of modellers. Things like the Schuman S-Gear plugin... he actually models the tubes and eq circuits in software and it responds to your signal, theoretically, the exact same way your amp does. Other modellers just mess with the sound until it sounds "close enough" to call it what they were after.

I don't know
You may be able to get technical info here
https://www.kemper-amps.com/

[drgonzonm]

.... click a few buttons and have the processor actually play your part for you and simultaneously roll a joint for you! 

Are these machines legal outside Colorado, the Medical Marijane States,?  and if in a MJS, do you need a prescription?   

I've heard that intelligence is a zero sum game, "the smarter the equipment, the dumber the player".  Are we looking at boutique guitar hero type equipment and LEDs on the neck, so our favorite guitar player is playing "Simon Says".   

[shooter]

"the smarter the equipment, the dumber the player"

+2!
my first CT school was 24weeks, my last was 3.  the 1st had 12weeks just on the computer hardware and software, bit chasing, chip swapping, the last school, "whatever board the diagnostics say is bad, swap it"

[Ed_Chambley]

This stuff is just like any consumer microprocessor based device. If you want to stay on the bleeding edge of technology you WILL have to replace hardware about every 3 years. That's a big factor in the turnover or retention rate. No different from the PC or cell phone upgrade mentality. Today it's learning profiles. Tomorrow it may be you feed a recording of Honky-tonk Woman into the processor and click a few buttons and the processor will make the adjustments to give you that identical tone. Next year you may be able to feed that same recording into the processor, click a few buttons and have the processor actually play your part for you and simultaneously roll a joint for you! 

I looking forward to not next year, as I would have to smoke the thing.  It is 2 years from now where you play Honky Tonk Woman into the machine.  Plug the patch cord into you butt, hit the joint button and stone you are.  You then have presets so you can mix the levels of chemicals of you preference.


Seriously, This input technology is cool stuff.  Recently I purchased a new Marantz Receiver that uses what they call Audio Audassey Auto Calibration with 11.2 and Dolby Atmos.  Do you have up to 15 speakers (I only used 9).  The Atmos speakers go up near the ceiling.  I have a preference to Paradign Speakers, so a large center and large left and right and large rear center.  Mid size Rear left and right.


The only thing I added new was the Atmos Speakers and receiver.  I had real concerns getting a proper balance.  Plugged in the mic and started the Audassey Program and in about 5 minutes it was ready to go.


This is unreal and while I initially questioned Marantz current build quality prior to getting the receiver home, the build quality is also along the higher end of things.  It is truly an amazing thing to have in the home.  I still duck down when it sounds like things are coming from the ceiling.


This is really not off topic as it may seem.  Here is my wrap-up.  I believe each and everyone of us will go with what we conceive will make our lives better, disregarding the known fact of the more you own the less time you have for yourself.  For instance, a long time friend who only plays a Taylor Acoustic these days, if you ask him why he loaned his nephew (really gave it to him) his 63 Telecaster, he will tell you when all that midi stuff came along he just never understood it and it looked like everything was going this way.  He is not very computer literate, but in no way is he dumb.  So his limitation was set by his brother playing keyboards and adding loops to live playing.  He said this is not playing music, so he would simply play something real.


His name is Anthony and I would say Anthony has his points.


On the other side, me.  I love pedals, Amps, Processors, Preamps, Molders, Profilers, Humbuckers, Les Pauls, Single Coils, Gretch.......................you get the idea.  I do not mind the learning curve of anything that doesn't seem like work.  So I am sure I will get a Kemper in the future, but I will keep my other stuff as well.  Primarily because I need a backup and I am not planning on buying 2 kempers.


Also, lets see who reads.  I learned to play Walk, Don't Run and Pipeline this weekend and it sure did sound good with an old Fender Reverb unit feeding a Brownface Bassman.


Think I am kidding, the attached would be considered my small pedal board.

[MakerDP]

Think I am kidding, the attached would be considered my small pedal board.

Yeah I am having a hard time fighting the urge to have a crazy big pedalboard.

Off topic... but how do you like that BB+ pedal? My wife wanted to get me a new pedal for my birthday and I was waffling back-n-forth between that, the regular BB and the custom shop BB Mid-Boost (well and the Wampler Euphoria). I finally ended-up with the BB Mid Boost. Should be here in a couple days.

[Ed_Chambley]

Think I am kidding, the attached would be considered my small pedal board.

Yeah I am having a hard time fighting the urge to have a crazy big pedalboard.

Off topic... but how do you like that BB+ pedal? My wife wanted to get me a new pedal for my birthday and I was waffling back-n-forth between that, the regular BB and the custom shop BB Mid-Boost (well and the Wampler Euphoria). I finally ended-up with the BB Mid Boost. Should be here in a couple days.

I would PM, but someone else may want to know.


First, I have to say Xotic pedals are really nice and that RC booster is my most used pedal beside compressors.  I had a BB, just the regular one and really loved it.  This is one side and I had a dual AC booster.  Didn't make sense and did not work well.  So this is why the dual BB.  The BB is an extremely tight asymmetrical distortion and the preamp in the BB is top notch.  You will really enjoy the EQ.


Best thing I can do is tell you what it does.  I mainly play mid scooped clean (then why in the hell do you have over 200 pedals?) and normally play TWANGGGGGGGGGG!  Don't get w me wrong, I like heavy music, I just happen to be a decent Chicken Picker Country Picker.  This is no joke, I can have a Scotty Moore tone working and step on the BB and transition right into War Pigs and even get into Zach Wild Territory.  Thing screams and the second fret harmonic squeals like Dimebag.


That is just the original BB side.  The Mid BB you have on the way is not much different and if you back off the gain it does the tubescreamer thing well and it is a very fat tone.  I would say this is the largest benefit over the regular one.  I am not going to say transparent or anything like that cause I really do not a "transparent" pedal.  Without making a change except changing you volume on the guitar with the BB you can get 3 very distinctive differing tones as the pedal will clean up completely just by rolling off.


The second tone if you have the gain up is the tubescreamer midhump bite and full on which I consider the third tone is great for lead work as the single notes do not sound too saturated.  IOW, it does not get anywhere near a fuzz.  The little silver pedal in the bottom right was build by forum member Jojokeo.  It is a unusual fuzz with great flexibility and touch sensitivity.  Thought I would mention that incase you are a pedal lover.

[silverfox]

I've been using this since mid March. Responds like a tube amp. Feedback, change power tubes and bias. Change bias in preamp stages. Forget how many pedals, 220 amps. Easy to use. Cabinet modeling based on impulse technology. I just dialed in the guitar from "Good Lovin Gone Bad".

silverfox.

[Ritchie200]

Ed, my pedal board grew to look like that in the late 70's - that was the one I could pick up radio stations with!    I had a volume pedal at the end to cut all the chatter.  When I heard Randy Rhodes did the same thing, I thought I was on to something!  Then I built a custom rack switcher with individual boosts/levelers for each pedal so nothing is lost or gained (unless I wanted) when I switched pedals in and out.  Then went in the opposite direction with just a few floor pedals as I found stuff that was more suited to the amp - and quieter. (PM heading your way)

I still think most musicians have a certain tone in their head that they are chasing - something that will give them THEIR individual sound.  Yeah it's cool to punch a button and sound like Kief or Eric every now and then, but I think most musicians like to experiment with STUFF to see what kind of noise they can make next.

Jim

[tubenit]

I've gone thru an embarassing amount of great sounding pedals and ended up giving away close to half of them.   I have a modified Zenith Drive that I like pretty well and probably use it a good 2 hrs worth in a years time.  I have a really old Wah pedal that I've had since the mid 70's and probably use it an hour a year.  The TimZee I made was a pretty cool pedal but I gave it away also.

And of the time delay pedals I've had .................. Boss digital delay, Wampler Faux Echo,  Carbon Copy (still have this), really old Ibanez Flanger, Holy Grail Reverb,  Digitech RV-7 reverb .................. the pedal that I use 95% of the time is the Moen Pretty Dolly delay which costs me $55.  It is easiliest the best sounding of all those to my ears with my specfic amps.

I almost always have slight delay (Moen delay)  in the FX loop and then just plug straight in.  I have a clean and overdrive channel on both amps.

I never can seem to get the tone I want using pedals. 

I admit to not being a very versatile player and on a good day just a mediocre player.  Perhaps if I had more talent, then a wider range of tones would work for me?

What I will say is I think I excell in having fun playing & sure enjoy the tone I can get from my amps and guitars.   

Respectfully,  Jeff

[Ritchie200]

Jeff, since you are in a giving mood, I will PM you my address!

I also have a few Moen pedals!  They do sound pretty darn good, but then I feel like I have to hide them knowing how cheap they are and where the were made....

I've said this before, but I still think effects and products have gotten too slick.  That's why I like the old live albums.  A little noise, some feedback, some imperfection - all gave the music more character.  Can you imagine how sterile Jimi's version of the Star Spangled Banner would have sounded like with the latest equipment direct to PA?  Ugh.....  Can't dial that up in some software.

Jim

[tubenit]

I also have a few Moen pedals!  They do sound pretty darn good

Next thing I'll hear is you've converted over to Tele's!   Seriously, the Moen pedals are great! 

I doubt I will ever be a candidate for a modeling or profiling amp unless I end up living some place where low volume is my only option.

Jeff

[EL34]

What are these "Pedal" things you speak of?

[Ed_Chambley]

What are these "Pedal" things you speak of?

Look right here:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17717.0


Doug Hoffman sells them.


BTW, The Kemper is on backorder.  The head and rack both.

[EL34]

What are these "Pedal" things you speak of?

Look right here:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17717.0


Doug Hoffman sells them.


BTW, The Kemper is on backorder.  The head and rack both.

 


I got mine from sweetwater a long time ago

[Ed_Chambley]

It looks like the Helix is the most kept unit, and of the 4 listed it is my least desirable of the bunch.


I guess the guys who bought it are still making payments.


It is truly funny how guitar players are.  I remember meeting a guy in a local Guitar Center looking over my shoulder while I was looking at the used pedals they had.  This dude was something and really must have thought he was divinely inspired to insure players are doing it right.  So, he makes the tired old comment tone is in your hands man!  So I asked him what exactly does this mean, tone is in your hands?  Then, of course, the next tired statement.  Eric Clapton would sound like Eric Clapton no matter what he is playing.  So I asked him which version of Layla her preferred, the unplugged version of the Derek and Dominos version.  Of course, I was setting him up because sometimes I just cannot resist.  He said the Derek version, like most people would.  So I asked him if the tone is in you hands, why on earth would he have a preference as they should be the same.


He told me I did not understand what he meant and these were really different songs.  I asked him to explain so I could "understand" because I thought since Clapton was unplugged on the later version he rearranged the song to be more suited to his Martin because of the difference in tonality as the unplugged version had a cleaner tone, which I knew was not true.  We then both discussed the "tonal similarities" between Cream and the version of Layla on Derek.


After he seemed to get ok again, I finally told him Clapton wrote Layla as a Ballad and it was Duane Allman who according to Eric Clapton came up with the main rock riff and even though Clapton did a lot of track work on the recording the main intro riff is both of them playing at the same time through a fender champ.  Each plugged into one channel.  I asked him if he could pick out which hands were doing what since Duane picked the first few notes and played slide and the last few notes in standard tuning.


So we agreed this was not a good example while I was getting ready to check out a Redwitch Fuzz.  Of course, since he was on a mission he followed me.  After I got that fuzz as nasty as possible I asked him if he liked and knew any Pink Floyd and he said yes, sure.  Well I handed him the guitar and asked him to play the intro to Wish You Were Here.  He again got mad and told me I couldn't compare acoustic and electric and what I was doing.  So I guess tone is in the hands when the tone is the same.


Silverfox just got a Good Lovin Gone Bad tone and this guitar tone is really cool.  In the middle of this song, if you listen close you will hear a phaser.  Happens at about 1 minute.  If someone can do this with their hands, all I have to say is you are wasting you time if you are not playing professionally.  Or you can play it like you.  Like Jerry Reed said, it already been played that way, why do I wan to play it that way again.  I don't, because I am no Jerry Reed and if I don't switch on a phaser I am not playing the song the best I know how.


Sort of like last weekend I was talking to someone I got interested in playing a couple of Ventures tunes and if I play a Telecaster near the bridge and do no muting it sounds like it has some reverb, but Walk, Don't Run has palm muting too.  What a quandary.  Do I break down and cheat and use an effect for the correct tone (oh the horror) or simply keep working until my hands will produce this tone.


I was going to learn some Duane Eddy too, but if I got to make that echo sound they got by recording in a grain silo with my hands, I give up.


I know, I just don't understand.  The truth is we all use what we want to use and this changes as we do.


Here is Good Lovin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7yMgJSOksc

[Ed_Chambley]

What are these "Pedal" things you speak of?

Look right here:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17717.0


Doug Hoffman sells them.


BTW, The Kemper is on backorder.  The head and rack both.

 


I got mine from sweetwater a long time ago

They are quite a hot item right now from what I understand and for the exact reason you mentioned.  Players are profiling and their gear and amps to perform with.  It is sort of cool to consider doing a profile on a Super Lead and be able to all that harmonic goodness of a cranked Marshall at a small pub.

[MakerDP]

Oh man ... the tone is in the hands ... yeah I always laugh at that one too.

A more correct statement would be "the style is in the hands" or "the feel is in the hands" or the "greatness is in the hands!" But the tone??? Seriously?

Hand EVH a vintage tele and plug him directly into a Twin Reverb - or an AC30 - without a flanger or delay pedal or any other effects... the feel will still be there... the style will still be there... the greatness will still be there... but is the "tone" the same??? No freakin way.

But having said that, there are some "hands" aspects to tone that do actually exist. For example, Robben Ford owes a lot of his tone to his right-hand technique in the way he attacks the strings with his pick and his fingers. But if his tone sounds the same from amp to amp (and it generally does) then that's more because of the fact that he mostly just uses a Zen Drive pedal into a clean amp for his overdrive sound now. He is also a master at coaxing his amp just to the brink of feedback and quickly backing off, but he can't really do that wihtout his Dumble or his Zen Drive.

[MakerDP]

The Kempers are also becoming very popular with the touring guys who rely on more than amp to cover their tonal palette. Much easier to loadout a Kemper head and a backup than two big heavy clean amps and two big heavy lead amps and a pedalboard setup for each one.

[EL34]

Your hands DO shape the tone to a certain extent
But your hands don't make the sound of a univibe, fuzz face, delay, reverbs, chorus, phasers or overdrives


You can spew that bit of wisdom to those people making comments next time :)

[Ed_Chambley]

Sure, palm muting is a hand deal and of course a big part of my playing is Chicken Picken and to do this you gotta sort of pop the strings.  You can even sort of hear it when I play an acoustic.  Here is the grind.  If you show up at a pop up gig as a country guitar slinger and you do not have a compressor for squeeze, and a guitar that will twang and a little slapback from a delay added to just a hair of breakup you can pop those strings all you want and they will never sound right.  I do not care how much tone you have in your hands.


Just like a Wang bar.  I can play Voodoo Chile (slight return) using it, but it doesn't sound right, but I can sue a wang bar to cover an old R&B tune Come To Papa and is sound great.  To me anyway.  The reason?  Nobody know what the tone should be in songs that have been covered by a lot of different acts, but you can bet Hendrix fans know Voodoo Chile and the tone associated.



Probably the most ever recorded Nashville player is Brent Mason. He is a funny dude.  He is a straight in amp and guitar guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQW8yNP7vBs

[tubenit]

I'm a fan of Brent Mason.  He is absolutely amazing!  I have his solo album and the only criticism I have of him is I wished he had more solo albums. 

He uses alot of different tones and pedals doesn't he.   

Unbelievably versatile player.  I like Johnny Hiland really well also.

With respect, Jeff