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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit  (Read 6802 times)

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Offline purpletele

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Confused about DRRI Bias procedures.

I am trying to set the bias but,

They do not have a designated test point that I can find.

I was looking to solder a 1 ohm resistor between pin 8 and the ground,

Pin 8 on the Power tubes is not hooked up, which I don't understand.

I am not sure how to set the bias without the use of a bias probe. 

Thanks for any enlightenment
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:33:55 am by purpletele »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Bias Question
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 03:33:03 am »
Quote
I was looking to solder a 1 ohm resistor between pin 8 and the ground,

Pin 8 on the Power tubes is not hooked up, which I don't understand.
Pin 8 is connected to ground via the yellow wire that connects to the board. One yellow for each tube. The board connection points are clearly labeled V7-8 and V8-8. Just disconnect the yellow wire from tube socket pin 8 and move it to pin 1. Now connect the 1Ω resistor between pins 1 and 8.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Bias Question
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 03:35:01 am »
Sluckey,

Problems sleeping like me?

I am tired and was reading the tube socket backward.  Thank you!

Worked like a charm
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 03:52:21 am by purpletele »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Bias Question
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 09:08:07 am »
My sleep habits are terrible these days. I'm having sinus problems this year and wake up so stuffed up I can hardly breath. So I get up, walk around a bit, then sit up until I'm clear. Usually takes about an hour.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 11:26:40 am »
This DRRI has a significant Pop when turning off the switch or Standby.  The internet search results in that Fender says it is normal.

It is not normal.

I had found a number of threads in this forum on potential resolutions, and then lost them.  One was a Capacitor/Resistor and others were component variations across the standby.

Does anyone have a solid resolution for the Fender Pop at Standby?

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 11:37:44 am »
I would try using a DPST switch to break both of the PT red leads going to the rectifier tube. I'm not a fan of putting caps or resistors across the usual Fender standby switch.

Search the forum and you will probably rediscover your lost threads. The threads are probably still there but any attachments may have been purged.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 12:31:41 pm »
I would try using a DPST switch to break both of the PT red leads going to the rectifier tube. I'm not a fan of putting caps or resistors across the usual Fender standby switch.

Search the forum and you will probably rediscover your lost threads. The threads are probably still there but any attachments may have been purged.


This is a new amp that belongs to someone else so I don't think I am going to modify anything.  Just looking for something to mute the pop

I was reading about snubber caps and lost the search.  RC Snubbers? 

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 01:50:52 pm »
This is a new amp that belongs to someone else so I don't think I am going to modify anything.  Just looking for something to mute the pop

I was reading about snubber caps and lost the search.  RC Snubbers?
You have already modified it! Adding snubber caps is another modification! If you ain't gonna modify it then your options are narrowed considerably. Change the switch or quit flipping it. If that doesn't do it then just accept what Fender said.
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Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 02:00:39 pm »
This is a new amp that belongs to someone else so I don't think I am going to modify anything.  Just looking for something to mute the pop

I was reading about snubber caps and lost the search.  RC Snubbers?
You have already modified it! Adding snubber caps is another modification! If you ain't gonna modify it then your options are narrowed considerably. Change the switch or quit flipping it. If that doesn't do it then just accept what Fender said.

Your right, I have already modified it.



But I think I am going to leave it be for a while.



Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 02:27:50 pm »
It's not uncommon for switch contacts to arc when switching on or off. Some switches are worse than others. And switching DC rather than AC is more likely to arc. Anything you can do to reduce this arc (spark) will reduce the pop you hear.

BTW, there is already a bias test point. Look at the schematic.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 02:39:19 pm »
It's not uncommon for switch contacts to arc when switching on or off. Some switches are worse than others. And switching DC rather than AC is more likely to arc. Anything you can do to reduce this arc (spark) will reduce the pop you hear.

BTW, there is already a bias test point. Look at the schematic.

I will look at the schematic again for the test point.


Offline kagliostro

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 02:45:13 pm »
If your rectifier was Solid State, my council will be to switch on AC instead that on DC

but you have a vacuum tube and tubes don't like to have AC connected and disconnected

so if you don't find one other solution (may be a new switch will solve in a simple way the problem)

consider to try one of this Capacitive network

http://it.rs-online.com/web/p/reti-capacitive-rc/0209213/

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1515/0900766b81515447.pdf





Franco
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 02:48:18 pm by kagliostro »
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2017, 02:51:39 pm »
It's not uncommon for switch contacts to arc when switching on or off. Some switches are worse than others. And switching DC rather than AC is more likely to arc. Anything you can do to reduce this arc (spark) will reduce the pop you hear.

BTW, there is already a bias test point. Look at the schematic.

OK, I'm glad you mentioned that.  I saw the test point #36 and I had set my voltage to -37 VDC to get it to factory specs for the 6 v 6 tubes.  I think I went in circles after that.

How does -37 VDC convert to mA once I set the voltage?  Am I missing a step?

(I actually installed 6l6's and set the bias at 32Ma this morning.  Lots of headroom)

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2017, 02:53:29 pm »
If your rectifier was Solid State, my council will be to switch on AC instead that on DC

but you have a vacuum tube and tubes don't like to have AC connected and disconnected

so if you don't find one other solution (may be a new switch will solve in a simple way the problem)

consider to try one of this Capacitive network

http://it.rs-online.com/web/p/reti-capacitive-rc/0209213/


That's what I was looking for!  Thank you

I want to try those.


It actually works fine by not switching off the standby. 

Thank you for the input.


http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1515/0900766b81515447.pdf





Franco

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2017, 04:41:45 pm »
Quote
I saw the test point #36 and I had set my voltage to -37 VDC to get it to factory specs for the 6 v 6 tubes.  I think I went in circles after that.

How does -37 VDC convert to mA once I set the voltage?  Am I missing a step?
Fender considered -37V to be a safe bias point for 6V6s in that amp. They don't care how many mA is flowing through the cathode. That's why they don't provide a monitor point (1Ω resistors) to show the actual tube current.

That -37v bias is applied to the control grid of the tube and it 'controls' the amount of mA current flowing through the tube. -30V would cause the mA current to increase and -40V would cause the mA current to decrease. But there is no easy way to convert that negative bias voltage to a certain mA number.

So, Fender considers it appropriate to adjust that bias voltage to the level they printed on the schematic. They believed it 60 years ago and still believe it today. It's only recently, when "smart" tweakers, and voices of those who simply echo what they've heard (often incorrectly), and the sellers of precision 1Ω resistors and bias probes got involved, that it became so important to set the tube current to some magical number that would give you 'that' special tone while also giving your tubes adequate life and the 'perfect' static plate dissipation. Probably happened about the time you started hearing phrases like cathode stripping and discussions about how to 'properly' use the standby switch.  :icon_biggrin:

Do we really have to be so precise? After all, it's just a simple audio amp!  :wink:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline shooter

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2017, 05:44:43 pm »
Quote
Do we really have to be so precise? After all, it's just a simple audio amp!  :wink:
Cheap beer AND sacrilegious!!! :laugh:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 08:06:32 pm »
I'm simple. My secrets are out. I ... feel... so... exhausted.
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Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2017, 08:43:27 pm »

Do we really have to be so precise? After all, it's just a simple audio amp!  :wink:
[/quote]

I agonize over getting the right values as specified per plans.  I think that is reflective of my level of confidence and understanding. 

However, I want to make the perfect sine waves so I can destroy it with Joe's Fuzz Burner.

The DRRI sounds good now but right out of the factory it was a little cold.  I am also changing V2 and V3 to a 5751 and Au7 respectfully.  That should make the amp perform with a little more clean headroom while using the Vibrato Channel of the amp. 

Makes me want to build something lush like the PR.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2017, 08:48:33 pm »
Completely exhausted... Must sleep now...

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2017, 08:54:03 pm »
Completely exhausted... Must sleep now...

I'm starting to rebuild my Mini-Bassman into the HoSo 56,  So I guess I won't be surprised to see you responding at 2:30 AM?

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2017, 09:18:18 pm »
See ya soon...  :icon_biggrin:
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2017, 06:51:35 am »
Completely exhausted... Must sleep now...
Again, you slept from 3 til 4 this afternoon. It is not just an audio amp when we start mucking around.


Yes, we are overly concedned with bias. When you had to replace a resistor instead of turning a pot, if you got 62% dissopation, that was good enough. Remember too tho that we were not trying to get a 6l6 tone from 2 El84 either.


I say turn it clockwise till it sounds good and back her off a quarter, like wheel bearings.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2017, 11:09:40 am »
Quote
Yes, we are overly concedned with bias. When you had to replace a resistor instead of turning a pot, if you got 62% dissopation, that was good enough.
That's relatively new thinking. When the amps we love were new nobody was replacing resistors for the purpose of obtaining a particular dissipation. If they were replacing resistors in the bias circuit it was to get the bias voltage back to the level that was printed on the schematic.

But heck. I'm guilty of being caught up in the precise tweakers thinking. I even put a bias pot and 1Ω resistors in my '57 Harvard.

Quote
I say turn it clockwise till it sounds good and back her off a quarter, like wheel bearings.
That works too. If you can hear! Not so good for me though. And would never work for Fender because Carmelle hears things totally different from Rosa. But put a meter in their hands and tell them which number to adjust for and they can crank out 100 amps per day and the amps will all meet the same specs.

If an amp has a bias pot I'm gonna tweak it until the measured plate current and voltage are set to provide exactly 70% of the maximum static plate dissipation as found in the tube charts on Duncan's site. I like math and I believe numbers that I can see on a meter or scope. I don't trust my ears so much anymore.

A lot of what I said yesterday was meant to explain how the negative bias voltage controls the tube current and also point out that Fender has a different goal in mind when they adjust the bias. And it was supposed to be a little humorous too (see the smileys), although you might need to read after a couple Icehouses.  :wink:
 
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2017, 11:32:04 am »
I enjoyed playing the DRRI.  It had been a while since I had played an amp that had that classic Fender Clean tone.

I think I want to put a really lush Fender type amp on my list of amps to build.

Any suggestions on a good circuit that has that tone?  Maybe the Hoffman Princeton, or even the Deluxe Reverb?

I really don't need tremolo, but I think Reverb is nice in a Fender Style circuit.

I have a nice Mather Princeton Tall Boy Cabinet that could be a home to a nice Fendery Amp.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:35:49 am by purpletele »

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2017, 11:38:13 am »
If your rectifier was Solid State, my council will be to switch on AC instead that on DC

but you have a vacuum tube and tubes don't like to have AC connected and disconnected

so if you don't find one other solution (may be a new switch will solve in a simple way the problem)

consider to try one of this Capacitive network

http://it.rs-online.com/web/p/reti-capacitive-rc/0209213/

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1515/0900766b81515447.pdf





Franco

Franco,

Thank you


Any suggestions on some values to try?
  If this works I have a bunch of Fender Popping switches that I know I will need to patch up for friends,


Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2017, 12:34:01 pm »
Since you like the sound of the DRRI, you would like the Hoffman AB763 with Deluxe Reverb components. The only difference between Hoffman's AB763 and the real deal is the tremolo circuit. It's very easy to drop the tremolo circuit if desired, or even make a single channel amp.

My TDR is a single channel Deluxe Reverb AB763 with reverb but no tremolo.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2017, 12:57:02 pm »
Since you like the sound of the DRRI, you would like the Hoffman AB763 with Deluxe Reverb components. The only difference between Hoffman's AB763 and the real deal is the tremolo circuit. It's very easy to drop the tremolo circuit if desired, or even make a single channel amp.

My TDR is a single channel Deluxe Reverb AB763 with reverb but no tremolo.

Bingo!  No need for the normal channel.  I can see it being a lightweight grab and go combo.

That would be great to see your build and review your files.  For me, audio circuits have and the access to information regarding such has been a real pleasure for me to explore.  It has taken the place of golf for the time being, until I have the money and the time to goof off on the course.

So having said that, Thank you for providing all of the information you have stored in your head and the support that you have provided.  I am moving along with Visio and that adds a new and intriguing dimension to these projects that is as interesting as building an amp.

Can you point me in the right direction to look at files.  I will look at your web page and also the Hoffman library.

Thanks,

Brian V


Offline sluckey

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2017, 01:06:35 pm »
Just click the world icon under my name.
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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2017, 02:16:34 pm »
Just click the world icon under my name.

That's it!  Nice work.  I have a few questions to get started, but I will start a new thread.

If it's ok I'd like to call it LDR?

Offline PRR

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65 Standy Switch Popping
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2017, 02:30:29 pm »
> How does -37 VDC convert to mA once I set the voltage?

Ask the tube.

Every tube-type is different.

Every tube of the "same type" is a little different, maybe 20%.

Attached is the published curve for 6V6. It is plotted for 250V and g-amps tend to run higher, so the bias won't be the same.

Note that the line is NOT straight. You can't calculate this. You have to have the curve.

Let us say the designer liked 40mA of current in the tube.

OK, so the designer looks at the curve and finds 40mA takes -14V of bias.

That works if the tube(s) in the hand are "exactly average".

Now build with a thousand tubes. (Or today, a handful from different years and factories.) They will lay all over the blue-shade +/-20% zone (and worse). A "correct" -14V bias may give, not 40mA, but 32mA or 48mA.

Do we care?

If it is Class A, this is moderately critical, because the tube can't suck more than it is biased at. (More is hot, less is early distortion.) If it is class AB the exact bias is not very critical. The tube *will* suck more current when needed; a too-cold bias may be "rough" on small sounds.

Since class A should be run Cathode Bias Whenever Possible, we know this is an AB design. The exact current is not very critical. We aim so a 20% high tube won't melt real quick, and a 20% low tube won't slack-off on very small sounds.

We work with bias Voltage because it is easier to measure than current. We do not have to break the circuit, or build test-resistors in. Test resistors (1 Ohm jobs) were not real viable in 1958 because voltmeters of the day did not read 40mV very well on a 1.5V (1500mV) minimum scale. If you got the bias voltage to about 14V, the amp was good to go. We did not fret about 32mA or 48mA actual current.

> Fender considered -37V to be a safe bias point for 6V6s in that amp. They don't care how many mA is flowing through the cathode. That's why they don't... show the actual tube current.

The Designer probably had a hint if it was 10mA or 100mA. He also diddle G2 voltage up over the model years and had to diddle bias down to avoid occasional red-plating in final test. He may even have breadboarded one and cycled a crate of tubes through it to see if any behaved badly. (Many seasoned factory techs saved a few extreme tubes to try in new designs, avoided trouble in the factory and in the field.)

We now have good meters and new-kids (yes, some not young) get crazy about the current. We see that _IF_ the amp had to run AT 40.00mA, we might need -12V or -16V for different tubes from a pile.

My feeling is that, if you know the amp, you read the plate temperature and see if it seems hot or cool. Using your hand leaves burns. I used to put my face in the amp: lips are sensitive to radiant heat. Today there's these dandy remote thermometers, which are not quite accurate on hot glass, but will consistently tell you warmer/cooler. And if you repair 7 amps an hour in a shop, a quick scan with an IR thermo instantly tells if a tube is hardly-alive or sub-red-plating, before it disappoints the customer.

One thing to remember: if you change the amp's Screen voltage, you want to change the G1 bias voltage at least as much. If you have a vintage design with 5K to the screens, and change to a choke (500 Ohm screen drop), say 25% rise of Vg2, you want 25%-30% more Vg1.

> Do we really have to be so precise? After all, it's just a simple audio amp!

Right. And it is a TUBE amp. Tubes are soft. Nothing happens suddenly. 40.00mA does not ensure a Grammy any more than 35mA gets you run out of the club in disgrace.

Much over 14W Pdiss in 6V6 increases the chance of a tube-death mid-set. (But Fender runs 17W in one model.) Way-cold bias is audibly "hoarse" on very soft sounds (so play loud!).
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 02:33:12 pm by PRR »

Offline purpletele

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Re: Deluxe Reverb Reissue 65: Suggestions on a New Similar Circuit
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2017, 02:36:20 pm »
^^^^^

Very well said PRR.

Thank you for the reply

BV

 


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