HoSo 56 FX

[purpletele]

Not sure what to call the latest rendition of Geezers HoSo 56,

I am using a nice new standard chassis and my intent is to have the chassis pristine.  So I have been logging some quality Visio time.

I have attached a photo of the Visio replication of the board sitting in a new chassis.  I don't see many long board such as the one I have drawn and wonder if there are any reasons that I should not pursue this layout? 

BV

[tubenit]

I would prefer you simply call it a HoSo56 & FX (or whatever else you want to call it) and leave off the "Tubenit".  It was DaGeezer's HoSo56 design and the FX is simply a variation of the D-style FX.  I don't need or want credit for the design.

I think having the long layout board is fine.  My personal preference is to have a board for the B+ caps separately in case I need to have access to the OT or PT.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=14344&mode=view

With respect, Tubenit

[purpletele]

I would prefer you simply call it a HoSo56 & FX (or whatever else you want to call it) and leave off the "Tubenit".  It was DaGeezer's HoSo56 design and the FX is simply a variation of the D-style FX.  I don't need or want credit for the design.

I think having the long layout board is fine.  My personal preference is to have a board for the B+ caps separately in case I need to have access to the OT or PT.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=14344&mode=view

With respect, Tubenit

Thanks Jeff,

I am going to move forward with the big board design.  I think it suits me well in case I decide to re-build it in the future,  the board can be very adaptable.

I really like the stand up transformers and the real estate you gain by not having that bell housing inside the chassis.

Maybe it will end up being my style.  The cabinet I am ordering will be Plum Tolex, I think I now how a trademark color going on.

[sluckey]

I highly recommend you put some tube sockets, pots, and jacks on that drawing. Then run the interconnecting wires to the board. This will give you a good visual of how neat or messy the layout really is.

You have to consider the board, tube layout, and control panel as one layout. All three of these areas interact and can cause you to have to rearrange components on the board for optimum layout.

[purpletele]

I highly recommend you put some tube sockets, pots, and jacks on that drawing. Then run the interconnecting wires to the board. This will give you a good visual of how neat or messy the layout really is.

You have to consider the board, tube layout, and control panel as one layout. All three of these areas interact and can cause you to have to rearrange components on the board for optimum layout.

Thank you Steve,

I will take your advice. This project and the Deluxe project are really design projects, I have the HoSo original to work on for experimentation.

I am after a comprehensive design package for each.  I have two new chassis in the mail, and I want to have these amps pristine when I finally get to the construction part.

BV

[jojokeo]

The "long board" layout or "single row" layout is optium for the creation of your layout for your circuit which begins at the ouot jack and works down the line all the way through to the end without any parts of the circuit overlapping or going back to previous areas and stages.


I first learned and read this in one or more of Gerald Weber's books. He's almost fanatical about this but with good reasoning in minimzing and eliminating possibilities of parasitic oscillations or other problematic issues. An ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure or for our European friends a gram of prevention / kilogram of cure. (Sounds strange this way) 


The thing I don't condone about your layout is that it's preferable to have your preamp filter caps in the physical locations of the preamp parts of the circuit where they are supposed to be directly connected to. Having all your e-caps together like that is not the best way to go. You may as well use cap cans. This rather destroys a good grounding plan and method. If you have issues once built it's difficult to turn around and go back.


Sluckey is correct in that you must draw everything out and connect it all with forethought of your grounding plan and also to assure hiw everything is going to fit together.


On your board now the way it currently is you can make it much narrower after the e-caps and save board material along with taking up less space inside the chassis.

[purpletele]

The "long board" layout or "single row" layout is optium for the creation of your layout for your circuit which begins at the ouot jack and works down the line all the way through to the end without any parts of the circuit overlapping or going back to previous areas and stages.


I first learned and read this in one or more of Gerald Weber's books. He's almost fanatical about this but with good reasoning in minimzing and eliminating possibilities of parasitic oscillations or other problematic issues. An ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure or for our European friends a gram of prevention / kilogram of cure. (Sounds strange this way) 


The thing I don't condone about your layout is that it's preferable to have your preamp filter caps in the physical locations of the preamp parts of the circuit where they are supposed to be directly connected to. Having all your e-caps together like that is not the best way to go. You may as well use cap cans. This rather destroys a good grounding plan and method. If you have issues once built it's difficult to turn around and go back.


Sluckey is correct in that you must draw everything out and connect it all with forethought of your grounding plan and also to assure hiw everything is going to fit together.


On your board now the way it currently is you can make it much narrower after the e-caps and save board material along with taking up less space inside the chassis.

Joe,

Great input, almost eerie.  I was going to send you a note to ask about placing the filter caps adjacent to the circuit that it serves.  I recall some advice that you gave me a couple years ago about my future layouts and specifically on this topic.

So the future is here, and I interested in perfecting an antiquated but highly effective method of creating an amplifier circuit.

I'll spend some time with this puzzle.

Thanks for the tip!

[tubenit]

placing the filter caps adjacent to the circuit that it serves

You can do that on the board IF it's a known circuit that you'll never change.  And that is a good approach and helps make for a quiet amp.

However, IF you end up modifying your layout, then the B+ caps on the board may not be the best approach in which case you can consider using terminal strips .......... OR a small board with turrets for a filter cap.  And then place those between the board and the front of the chassis where the pots are.

With respect, Tubenit

[jojokeo]

I've modified many a circuit with or without the e-lytics in the preamp stages. How? Not everything needs to be mounted onto a turret or eyelet board. Flying leads directly to pots, sockets, switches, and/or tag strips are fine when done correctly.

I must add that when we incorporate more gain stages and complexities to our circuits it's almost unavoidable where parts of circuits will go back to prior areas but this is where shielded cable is handy. The main principle prior was just to try to have that line of thinking when creating good layouts and component placements. Knowledge of power leads, low vs high impedance leads, grid and plate wiring, heavy current wires, etc. all super important to consider what is run next to what or placed near each other. These are the things that cause many of the issues people report and try to fix that everyone posts their symptoms to their problems on this site for due to their lack of understanding on these issues.

[purpletele]

I first learned and read this in one or more of Gerald Weber's books. He's almost fanatical about this but with good reasoning in minimzing and eliminating possibilities of parasitic oscillations or other problematic issues. An ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure or for our European friends a gram of prevention / kilogram of cure. (Sounds strange this way) 


The thing I don't condone about your layout is that it's preferable to have your preamp filter caps in the physical locations of the preamp parts of the circuit where they are supposed to be directly connected to. Having all your e-caps together like that is not the best way to go. You may as well use cap cans. This rather destroys a good grounding plan and method. If you have issues once built it's difficult to turn around and go back.


Sluckey is correct in that you must draw everything out and connect it all with forethought of your grounding plan and also to assure hiw everything is going to fit together.


On your board now the way it currently is you can make it much narrower after the e-caps and save board material along with taking up less space inside the chassis.
[/quote]


Joe,

Great input, almost eerie.  I was going to send you a note to ask about placing the filter caps adjacent to the circuit that it serves.  I recall some advice that you gave me a couple years ago about my future layouts and specifically on this topic.

So the future is here, and I interested in perfecting an antiquated but highly effective method of creating an amplifier circuit.

I'll spend some time with this puzzle.

Thanks for the tip!
[/quote]

HoSo FX Update:   


I am getting back to some drafting work where I needed to use the Visio Board Stretcher function to insert some filter caps.  It worked out quite nicely provided I placed those caps into the circuit correctly.

I'm going to study it for a while and verify that I reproduced Tubenit's drawing correctly.

When I reach the point where the consensus feel's that the board is correct then I need to get creative to expose the Turrets.

I think I need to add a sheet, copy this board and components, rename it to Board and the proceed to strip components off.  Seems really mechanical but you have to make sure all of the components fit so I don't see any other way. 

From there I think I have a drawing that can be exported to Doug for manufacturing.  I have to review that procedure as well.

The drawings are still a little clunky but it's coming along. 

Any advice or spotted errors would be welcome.

BV

[jojokeo]

If it were me I'd create another board and start over but using that one as a guide while mainly using the schematic to follow along. I would make a ground rail extending further below the other components and make a B+ rail above the other side like on my Agent 86 turret board. I would size the board's depth to account for whichever is the longest components to keep that as small and compact as possible also. This is key so that it can fit nicely into a smaller chassis if wanted while conserving fr4/g10 board material. Check out the Agent 86 thread for an example on this if needed?

[purpletele]

If it were me I'd create another board and start over but using that one as a guide while mainly using the schematic to follow along. I would make a ground rail extending further below the other components and make a B+ rail above the other side like on my Agent 86 turret board. I would size the board's depth to account for whichever is the longest components to keep that as small and compact as possible also. This is key so that it can fit nicely into a smaller chassis if wanted while conserving fr4/g10 board material. Check out the Agent 86 thread for an example on this if needed?

Joe,

Good input, thank you.

It does seem big, but that doesn't bother me for this project.  I like the idea of the ground rail and a B+ rail.  I also want to preserve room on the board to lay out the components in traditionally recognizable configurations such as a LTPI, etc. 

I think the angled resistors of a traditional layout helps visualize the flow and makes it look authentic.

I think it's a great opportunity to streamline that board.  I can work on this project as a virtual project and be quite satisfied. 

Does the placement of the filter caps look correct?

What was the name of the Zeppelin Band you referenced yesterday?  That might be worth catching if they come through Sac.

[purpletele]

If it were me I'd create another board and start over but using that one as a guide while mainly using the schematic to follow along. I would make a ground rail extending further below the other components and make a B+ rail above the other side like on my Agent 86 turret board. I would size the board's depth to account for whichever is the longest components to keep that as small and compact as possible also. This is key so that it can fit nicely into a smaller chassis if wanted while conserving fr4/g10 board material. Check out the Agent 86 thread for an example on this if needed?

Joe,

I have made some modification's to the board with the filter cap placement and a B+ rail. 

Can I get some critique on the layout? 

I am going to try to move forward with this design this weekend.

I am going to stick with a large board for simplicity and visual appeal.

I am really just re-drawing Tubenit's layout with the filter caps placed next to the circuit they feed.  At least that was the intent.

Thanks,

BV

[tubenit]

Overall, the idea of the electrolytics on the B+ rail being on the layout board closer to the gain stage looks good.

However,  double check node D and how you have the filter cap connected to it?  Not sure that's how you want it done?

With respect, Tubenit

[purpletele]

Overall, the idea of the electrolytics on the B+ rail being on the layout board closer to the gain stage looks good.

However,  double check node D and how you have the filter cap connected to it?  Not sure that's how you want it done?

With respect, Tubenit

Thank you Jeff,

I'll check the D node

BV

[purpletele]

Overall, the idea of the electrolytics on the B+ rail being on the layout board closer to the gain stage looks good.

However,  double check node D and how you have the filter cap connected to it?  Not sure that's how you want it done?

With respect, Tubenit

I see I missed a 'D' Node at V2.

I think you might be suggesting that the Filter cap be inserted into the D node in the Pre-Amp Section and connect 'C' and 'D' in the power section with with jumpers.

Thanks,

BV

[tubenit]

OK,  I originally gave you a "perfectly good" layout, IMO.  It has never been an advantage to me in medium to low gain builds to have filtering on the board closer to the gain stage.  Fender and even Dumble ran wires from B+ node on filter cap board or cap can.

Comments all meant respectfully ................

1)  IF you want help with critiques on a layout or schematic,  PLEASE post also in a GIF or JPEG format so we can use PAINT  to edit (for those of us
     who don't have VISIO)  You had so many mistakes changing the original layout, that what you posted needed editing.

2)  Node C is only used with the LTPI

3) You need a dropping resistor between node C and node D

4)  You need a dropping resistor between node D and node E

5)  You listed a cap off the 100k as .0047.  It is .047

6)  You left off a connection between a 100k plate resistor paralleled with 250p cap to the B+ rail.

7)  B+  node E does NOT connect to a cathode.  It connects to the plate of the 5879.

8)  It greatly complicates things to simply show a layout and request help editing it when you have NOT also posted the layout board connected
     to the tubes, pots, inputs, jacks, etc .................   

I am not sure your layout "improved" the original design?   

It took me almost as much time to print off your PDF, scan it, open it with PAINT, go back and look at my layout that shows where things connect to pots, tubes, etc.......... and then edit it ................ as it took me to draw the entire layout in ExpressSCH.
 

With respect, Tubenit

[purpletele]

OK,  I originally gave you a "perfectly good" layout, IMO.  It has never been an advantage to me in medium to low gain builds to have filtering on the board closer to the gain stage.

Comments all meant respectfully ................

1)  IF you want help with critiques on a layout or schematic,  PLEASE post also in a GIF or JPEG format so we can use PAINT  to edit (for those of us
     who don't have VISIO)  You had so many mistakes changing the original layout, that what you posted needed editing.

2)  Node C is only used with the LTPI

3) You need a dropping resistor between node C and node D

4)  You need a dropping resistor between node D and node E

5)  You listed a cap off the 100k as .0047.  It is .047

6)  B+  node E does NOT connect to a cathode.  It connects to the plate of the 5879.

7)  It greatly complicates things to simply show a layout and request help editing it when you have NOT also posted the layout board connected
     to the tubes, pots, inputs, jacks, etc .................   

It took me almost as much time to print off your PDF, scan it, open it with PAINT, go back and look at my layout that shows where things connect to pots, tubes, etc.......... and then edit it ................ as it took me to draw the entire layout in ExpressSCH.
 

With respect, Tubenit

Jeff,

Thanks for the comments.  The layout you provided is clean, accurate and developed over a cup of coffee, I know that, and I struggle with the concept of putting myself through a layout  re-organization via Visio.

I appreciate the eyes and insight.

The idea is to develop drawings with layers and everything is detailed and dimensioned.  I am finding that to be a tall order right now, but I feel it is important for all of my different project to have integrated CAD drawings into the documentation.

I didn't realize that a PDF couldn't be manipulated in paint,  good feedback.  I will post things in GIF or JPEG.

Thanks for the insight, sorry to be a PIA

Once I clean up the board then I will post the other layers that indicate the controls and Chassis layout.

BV

[sluckey]

I struggle with the concept of putting myself through a layout  re-organization via Visio.

You ain't never gonna learn Visio if you don't use it. This is the perfect opportunity to learn. Just jump in. BTW, Visio does layers too.

Yeah, it's gonna take a lot of time to get to the level as some of us. We did our struggles too. I started with Visio v1.0 back in the early '90s so I got a head start on you. I still spend more time in Visio than I do on the bench. But I enjoy it. It's all part of the process. And the process is what it's all about for me. It's never been about the finished amp. Well, maybe a little bit. 

[purpletele]

I struggle with the concept of putting myself through a layout  re-organization via Visio.

You ain't never gonna learn Visio if you don't use it. This is the perfect opportunity to learn. Just jump in. BTW, Visio does layers too.

Yeah, it's gonna take a lot of time to get to the level as some of us. We did our struggles too. I started with Visio v1.0 back in the early '90s so I got a head start on you. I still spend more time in Visio than I do on the bench. But I enjoy it. It's all part of the process. And the process is what it's all about for me. It's never been about the finished amp. Well, maybe a little bit. 

Thanks Steve,

My work projects are benefiting from this added skill.  I don't know how I made it the last 25 years without drafting details.  ( Scale and Graph Paper, that's how)

Starting a new consulting gig with PG & E doing development feasibility studies, so lite drafting is golden!

I want to get this board under control so I can do a complete layout in the chassis and cabinet, and then I can work on the crown jewel, The LDR Single Channel Deluxe.

I have been using layers, but in order to get the turret layout correct I have to have the board correct.  So the only way to get an accurate turret board is to copy the board with components onto a layer and then strip the components?

My stubbornness to go with a popular software comes from losing years of estimates and data form a Shareware program that our company had adopted.  This was the mid ninety's when the Bill Gates and Steve Jobs changed the idea of free software.

BV

[tubenit]

I want to echo Sluckey's great advice to learn the Visio program and to stick with it!   

And I will echo that all of us (myself more then some) made many mistakes early on in drawing up layouts (& in my case, schematics also). I still make careless mistakes.

Sluckey's layouts are fantastic with things to scale and proportional.  They look great and they are very well thought out.  Visio is a superior drawing tool, IMO.

(In contrast,  my SCH layouts are NOT to scale and are always incomplete in showing the PT, OT, etc.........  The SCH is an OK free tool to show a layout board and connections, but it is not able to properly do a layout of an entire amp chassis like Visio)

I was trying to say in my reply #16 that I'm not sure putting the filter caps next to the preamp gain stages is actually an improvement.  Visio is definitely an improvement to SCH.

I don't have the knowledge that Sluckey, PRR, HotBluePlates and about 40 other forum guys do.  So much of what I have learned is by drawing schematics and layouts.  It does help your knowledge base of tube amps as well as your building skills.

Respectfully,  Tubenit

Yikes,  might help if I posted your GIF edited version.  Sorry about that.  CHECK for Errors on what I posted!

[purpletele]

I want to echo Sluckey's great advice to learn the Visio program and to stick with it!   

And I will echo that all of us (myself more then some) made many mistakes early on in drawing up layouts (& in my case, schematics also). I still make careless mistakes.

Sluckey's layouts are fantastic with things to scale and proportional.  They look great and they are very well thought out.  Visio is a superior drawing tool, IMO.

(In contrast,  my SCH layouts are NOT to scale and are always incomplete in showing the PT, OT, etc.........  The SCH is an OK free tool to show a layout board and connections, but it is not able to properly do a layout of an entire amp chassis like Visio)

I was trying to say in my reply #16 that I'm not sure putting the filter caps next to the preamp gain stages is actually an improvement.  Visio is definitely an improvement to SCH.

I don't have the knowledge that Sluckey, PRR, HotBluePlates and about 40 other forum guys do.  So much of what I have learned is by drawing schematics and layouts.  It does help your knowledge base of tube amps as well as your building skills.

Respectfully,  Tubenit

Yikes,  might help if I posted your GIF edited version.  Sorry about that.  CHECK for Errors on what I posted!

Thanks Jeff, that was a lot of work for you to do, I appreciate the help and the encouragement.

I also appreciate the way you, as well as the others,  provide constructive criticism,  This is a pleasant place to hang out, listen and learn!

I think the filter cap positioning in the Pre-Amp section was something that Joe was encouraging me to do as a standard detail to integrate into designs.  That is not to say that this particular circuit may have efficacy with a Cap Can, or as Dummyload inadvertently showed the use of two cap cans to separate pre-amp filter grounds from power section grounds as shown on his 6 v 6 18 watt amp.

BV

[purpletele]

I want to echo Sluckey's great advice to learn the Visio program and to stick with it!   

Yikes,  might help if I posted your GIF edited version.  Sorry about that.  CHECK for Errors on what I posted!

Jeff,

I certainly realize the effort that you made to edit my drawing, thank you for that, it provided a huge force of momentum!

I have attached an updated version saved as a JPEG.  The JPEG option has quite a few options within regarding resolution and such.  Pretty cool.  I'll try editing this file in MS Paint soon to see how that works.

I still have some editing to do on the board, more specifically with the components and values.

The main focus was to get the structure of the B+ Rail and the negative rail organized correctly.

I integrated your suggested changes, they made very logical sense. 

I can now get a Turret Board ordered and move on with the rest of the design.

Once again, that was a very generous response, I have a lot of tasks I can start now.

BV

[tubenit]

That looks great!  Check the value of the cap that you have listed off the 100k resistor next to the 22uf filter cap in the middle of the board.  I think that cap should be .047 instead of .0047.

Have fun with the build!  With respect, Tubenit

[purpletele]

That looks great!  Check the value of the cap that you have listed off the 100k resistor next to the 22uf filter cap in the middle of the board.  I think that cap should be .047 instead of .0047.

Have fun with the build!  With respect, Tubenit

It does look pretty cool, it gives you a good visual of flow!

I'll clean up the component values and get this baby moving.

Thanks again Mr. Tubenit

[purpletele]

I worked through my Visio file a bit more and modified a drawing for my Turret Board. 

I had some feedback from Doug on my first attempt.  The second attempt seemed to go pretty well. 

So here is my praise:

I sent my drawing in for a custom board at midnight.  I get an e mail at 6:00 AM my time from Doug that it is finished and shipped! 

That is so refreshing.  I really enjoy seeing companies like Doug's do well competing in the market, and I certainly support him.

I had to send a note to a competitor letting them know that their 2-4 day express delivery with Fed Ex is really 7 days because Fed Ex doesn't move this product on the weekends?

I buy mogami  instrument cables through them, and they used to be spot on with delivery.

I know some of the sales folks and I just had to tell them that a 7 day turn around for parts is too long in the Amazon world.  It was constructive feedback and I hope they take notice.

I like getting my stuff quickly.

Thanks Mr. Hoffman! 

[sluckey]

Could we see your new board layout?

[purpletele]

I made the correction's that Tubenit suggested.

I created another tab on my Visio file or page.  I haven't approached layers yet, but the top out should be layered I would think.

I copied my circuit board, then stripped it of components, cleared the gridlines and Fill Color, and then exchanged the turrets with red circles.

Here is the circuit board and Turret Board attached.

[purpletele]

Making a move on completing this design.

I am getting better with the faceplates and it is less of an difficult task.

I used Adobe Illustrator for the Faceplates, but I had a few minor issues with conversion to CorelDraw at Precision Design.   Sandy Henry is really good at fixing my detail issues. 

Next step is doing the complete layout, that starts soon.