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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Agent 86 build  (Read 10431 times)

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Offline jojokeo

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Agent 86 build
« on: July 22, 2017, 04:26:20 pm »
Here's the 411:
In a bit of downtime thinking about a new amp design request by a customer and musician friend of mine, I had an idea to create a sort of prototype which would satisfy several things: to build another amp for myself (been a while since lately building for others) while testing an idea that will be designed into a Hot Rod Deluxe after I gut that circuit out. This will be similar to what I've done here on a smaller scale. I had a Vox Pathfinder 15 which served as the donor cab, chassis, and speaker. I got it for about $60 delivered in need of repair. I fixed it and sold the working transformer, board, and pots for appx $30. I also had a Hammond AO-44 that reportedly didn't work right for about the same $60 with tubes. This provided the iron, tubes, and some sockets. I had all the basics for under $100.

I wanted this one to be a simple, clean, and good sounding amp & circuit and only adding single tube due to the space available and not overloading the Hammond's PT. I wanted to once again use an EF86 for it's great tone and excellent range and versatility operating from clean to overdrive.

The name: well since there's only 4 tubes total and three of them have an "86" on them...and one of my favorite TV shows as a kid that still makes me laugh to this day - Get Smart. The main character is Maxwell Smart code named Agent 86 (for anyone not familiar?)

I spent a number of hours on the tone stack program coming up with something there that has a similar notch or V-shape and in the same frequency range as Fender & Vox's - yet it has a better range and not as much of a loading effect (to help with the EF86 being loaded as much). That's the idea anyway and it worked out as intended. Another idea came for the NFB switching via a lot of almost 20K vintage SPST push-pull pots that I've had for a while. They were originally wanted to be used for a mid control and to operate a tone stack lift but after testing they are normally open pull to close. I could still use them in this way but it would be the opposite of how I normally do it. So for this build it then introduces NFB when pulled for a range of different tones and feel plus higher headroom if wanted. For economy and space saving I went with a cathodyne pi and finally wanted a larmar type ppimv.

There was very little tweaking when it was up and running. This involved removing a bright cap I thought it would need using 1M vol pots early in the circuit. I lowered the gain of the pentode since there was plenty of tap anyways. I lowered the pi anode and cathode load resistors to lower the output swing since ECL86s are rather sensitive like EL84s it turns out (I've not used these before), then at full throttle there was bit of unbalance that increasing their grid stoppers resolved with no loss of high end due to the cathodyne's low Miller capacitance.

I don't put very many of my amp designs on here mainly because there's no ground breaking circuit ideas here, no reinventing of the wheel as we say. I mainly like to color outside the lines creating whatever I can think up and tweaking things to become better than they are (same with my effects pedal line as it evolves too). I am humbled by the generosity of sluckey and tubenit (geezer too going way back) as to how much they share of their circuit ideas along with dummyload too. A big thanks to PRR and HotBluePlates sharing their great wisdom! Shout outs to Willabe, Mike S, Ed C, SG, Jimbob, S&P, PT, Chip, Josh, and foreign friends tubeswell, Timbo, Kagliostro, etc... and last but certainly not the least DOUG! Sorry I can't name everyone but it can't be said too much - thanks again all!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 04:28:46 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 04:41:57 pm »
Conceptualizing placements, board, wiring, parts, etc
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 04:50:08 pm »
continued
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 05:01:06 pm »
continued...
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 05:16:49 pm »
Final words - unfortunately the little 8" speakers sound okay but are too inefficient. Playing through several 12" cabs the amp sounds fantastic. It seems to be in between the power of a 6BM8 and an EL84 amp - closer to the EL84s I think? I'm in the process of making a 10" baffle board to squeeze in a G10L-35 and maybe something else? But the magnet on this one leaves 1/4" space with the chassis and appx 1/2" from the tubes. I'm hoping the magnet doesn't affect anything with tubes being that close? If this doesn't work out then I'll make or get a bigger cab.
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Offline 2deaf

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 05:34:30 pm »
Do you have any tubes with a "99" on them?

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 08:23:48 pm »
Those tubes would only work in the speaker Cone of Silence.

Jim

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Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 08:39:20 pm »
What about building a matching extension speaker of desired size (12"? 2x12"? 4x12" :icon_biggrin:).  Seems like this build should have the best for reproduction.  Nice little mini stack and you would only use the main 8" for bedroom/practice?  I know, but man you just do not have much room back there...

Jim

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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 12:04:12 am »
Do you have any tubes with a "99" on them?
I like how you're thinking but actually yes, JJ ecc99's but they don't have that beautiful hourglass shape :(
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 12:07:05 am »
Those tubes would only work in the speaker Cone of Silence.
What?! I can't hear you!  :laugh:

What about building a matching extension speaker of desired size (12"? 2x12"? 4x12" :icon_biggrin:).  Seems like this build should have the best for reproduction.  Nice little mini stack and you would only use the main 8" for bedroom/practice?  I know, but man you just do not have much room back there...
After playing with the 12's it spoils you. 10's can get closer so we'll see? I mocked up a piece of thin wood pressing against the battens to see if a 10 would even fit at all. The Celestion does barely as you can see but many other larger magnet 10s will not so there's a limit of what I can use here too unfortunately. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:55:37 am by jojokeo »
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Online kagliostro

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 05:02:16 am »
Very nice amp  :thumbsup:

I like the idea of a staked speaker cabinet

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if you find one may be an alternative also one elliptical speaker ?

Franco

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Offline tubenit

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2017, 05:43:05 am »
Great build!  Looks superb.  Always love innovative designs.  THANKS for sharing it!

I put your schematic and layout in the schematic library here:  http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=22184.new#new

With respect, Tubenit

Offline sluckey

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 07:02:53 am »
Good job! I love these kind of projects. That Pathfinder is a neat little box for small amps. And the little Bulldog Celestion that comes in them sounds pretty good to me as long as I don't expect too much from it. I've stuffed three of those Pathfinders, one of them using the little AO-44 amp. Wish I could find one more but eBay prices have become stupid for that little amp.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 07:13:58 am by sluckey »
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 12:07:03 pm »
Very nice jojo!
Some points of interest for me are:
-the Gain control...cool implementation
-the 6CA4 rectifier - I had never noticed a 6.3V rectifier before
-the bright caps around the MV
- general "coloring outside the lines" approach
 :thumbsup:

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 12:18:17 pm »
Joe,
I got a question.  Why the 450 V cap on the gain pot?  Something about the cathode of an EF86 I don't know?

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 12:23:26 pm »
Good catch EC
I think that's just a typo on his layout...
A real, competent builder never would've let that slide by  :angel
 
He's slipping  :l2:
 
Edit:
I see it now...it's just his path to ground.
For some reason the stripes on his E caps were throwin me off as though the stripe was the "+" side
He's got the "+"s on there
Who's slippin?  :grin:
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 12:32:29 pm by SILVERGUN »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 12:43:19 pm »
Good catch EC
I think that's just a typo on his layout...
A real, competent builder never would've let that slide by  :angel
 
He's slipping  :l2:
 
Edit:
I see it now...it's just his path to ground.
For some reason the stripes on his E caps were throwin me off as though the stripe was the "+" side
He's got the "+"s on there
Who's slippin?  :grin:
You see what?  That this is the value he had on hand and just used that.  What am I missing?


Certainly not a typo, I can see it on the board, it is a 25uf/450v cap.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 12:52:31 pm »
Quote
Certainly not a typo, I can see it on the board, it is a 25uf/450v cap.
I don't see any 25uf/450v caps on that board. The high side of that gain pot connects to a 25uf/25v cap and the wiper of the gain pot connects to the ground buss across the top of the board.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 12:53:53 pm »
I think he's f-in with me Sluckey
You know how he gets some days

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 01:39:09 pm »
Damn, thanks Dave.  Seriously, I looked and did not see that cap. :laugh:


I would never mess with you................................well most days.  You are right, sometimes I cannot help myself, but this time I simply did not see the K cap.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 01:42:07 pm »
Oh yea, I forgot.  Joe and I spoke at great length about this build.  I have even heard the amp and it really needs more than an 8", but is 8 inches is all you got then thats what you have to use.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 05:13:28 pm »
"I've stuffed three of those Pathfinders, one of them using the little AO-44 amp"

Yes, I've seen them - YOU were the one that gave me the idea :) My original intention was thinking the ao-44 chassis would fit better and wasn't so small - even in that small cab? But the best thing was actually using it's own chassis which gave me more room for everything.

Also - to cram the board into this chassis I used a modified version or your and Doug's multi-row approaches.


"Some points of interest for me are:"
-the Gain control...cool implementation
-the bright caps around the MV

To me, both mandatory using a pentode and that type of MV!


"I don't see any 25uf/450v caps on that board. The high side of that gain pot connects to a 25uf/25v cap and the wiper of the gain pot connects to the ground buss across the top of the board."

You got it correct - the pot is bringing in the bypassing effect - very useful so you can dial things in the way it needs to be. More effective than only pentode/triode and works well for both.


"...really needs more than an 8", but if 8 inches is all you got then thats what you have to use."

I'll take the 5th... :think1:  :w2: :dontknow:  :l2:
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 05:34:42 pm »
Sorry about the e-lytic cap stripe markings, I don't remember why and where those came from? But I made all of these components while using the jsch program a long while ago since I didn't have a "proper" program to use and made do with what I had.

Since then purpletele helped me get Visio a couple of months ago but I've yet had time to play and experiment with it yet? Hopefully some day soon so until then my jsch "drawings" have to suffice?

I don't really know where and how to begin yet? But looking forward to getting my things looking as good as you guys that use it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 05:38:34 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 01:25:28 pm »
Here's an audio update to this project: made a quick and easy iPhone sound demo of the amp running through one of my 12" cabs: https://soundcloud.com/jojokeo/agent-86-triode-mode-through-weber-12a150a-cab
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 04:12:10 pm »
Sorry about the e-lytic cap stripe markings, I don't remember why and where those came from? But I made all of these components while using the jsch program a long while ago since I didn't have a "proper" program to use and made do with what I had.

Since then purpletele helped me get Visio a couple of months ago but I've yet had time to play and experiment with it yet? Hopefully some day soon so until then my jsch "drawings" have to suffice?

I don't really know where and how to begin yet? But looking forward to getting my things looking as good as you guys that use it.
My eyes just did not see the cap until SG circled it!  That is all.  Other than that, the docs are plenty nice to build the amp.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2017, 07:31:06 pm »
Nice soundclip jojoj  :thumbsup:
I can really hear the personality of the amp

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 12:54:21 pm »
"I've stuffed three of those Pathfinders, one of them using the little AO-44 amp"

Yes, I've seen them - YOU were the one that gave me the idea :) My original intention was thinking the ao-44 chassis would fit better and wasn't so small - even in that small cab? But the best thing was actually using it's own chassis which gave me more room for everything.

Also - to cram the board into this chassis I used a modified version or your and Doug's multi-row approaches.


"Some points of interest for me are:"
-the Gain control...cool implementation
-the bright caps around the MV

To me, both mandatory using a pentode and that type of MV!


"I don't see any 25uf/450v caps on that board. The high side of that gain pot connects to a 25uf/25v cap and the wiper of the gain pot connects to the ground buss across the top of the board."

You got it correct - the pot is bringing in the bypassing effect - very useful so you can dial things in the way it needs to be. More effective than only pentode/triode and works well for both.


"...really needs more than an 8", but if 8 inches is all you got then thats what you have to use."

I'll take the 5th... :think1: :w2: :dontknow: :l2:
Yep, but what I look for are the Hammond Tone Cabinets.  Great Iron, normally 2 Output Transformers and if you are lucky you can find them with Jensen speaker 10's Alnico and a Heppner 12 which is a very nice full range 50 watt.


I usually get them from Churches storage.  As Hammond Organs usually had one with them and they did not get use much.  I just got one of the smaller ones, a 20 watt.  Had brand new RCA tubes in it and they have never used the thing.


They have large Inductors to handle plate currents and is a great way to lower you voltages and improve filtering.  It is this where I got my idea of the 4, 6v6 amp with 2 OT's that can be switched on and off.  Also, the way these things are assembled makes nice wood for other things.  The oil filled verb is huge and not practical for guitar, but I did get one working just to see.


Very nice, but have to remain vertical and it is 25.5" tall.


I cannot say enough about the iron as well.  the larger PR40 cabinet, if you lose the inductor the voltages make around 450 with EL34's for that perfect Plexi 1987 or JCM 800.  I did build one as is and used 4, 6L6 as the Power Transformers have plenty of current.  It ended up being a very clean amp, but not Twin like intentionally.  I used Ampeg rocket preamp to a Twin PA.


This is what I used to use as a Breadboard.  The chassis from one along with a large stainless pan.


Most of the time I get them just to haul them off and I have never found one with a bad tube and all the tubes are ones you want to boot.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 01:13:39 pm »
Did you notice a faint rumble in the walls and foundation when you walked in? :help:

Jim :dontknow:

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Offline purpletele

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2017, 03:23:36 pm »
continued

Joe,

I am paying attention to resistors now.  I am going to phase out CC resistors.  You had mentioned that you use them specifically in one location in the power section.

How do you use that resistor and why do you use CC?

I am seeing one CC resistor on your Agent 86 board.




Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2017, 04:01:18 pm »
That appears to be a 47R.  Look at the cathode of the PI.  He probably used it because it is all he had in a 47R.  Maybe not, but the main reason some use CC resistors is they do distort, but must be used in higher voltage areas.  Plate resistors and then they need to be 1 watt if possible.

Let's see what Joe says.

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2017, 04:08:38 pm »
Thanks,

I think you are correct.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2017, 05:01:45 pm »
Nice soundclip jojoj  :thumbsup:
I can really hear the personality of the amp
Thanks my friend, just tried to show it's cleaner chimey side. It easily has a lot of nice high gain in the pentode mode. That's an easy one to record.

Interesting it's Aug 8th, I just got notified of any replies. I may have to change to another email once again to get somewhat timely replies to things? First time it was ditching my MSN address and now Yahoo lags...is Gmail any better???
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 05:03:48 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2017, 05:21:22 pm »
That appears to be a 47R.  Look at the cathode of the PI.  He probably used it because it is all he had in a 47R.  Maybe not, but the main reason some use CC resistors is they do distort, but must be used in higher voltage areas.  Plate resistors and then they need to be 1 watt if possible.

Let's see what Joe says.
Ha! Good eye Ed. I only had a 47r which happened to be CC... I could've easily used a 1/4w there since it's only part of the voltage divider for the NFB loop. PT - No magic there at all, sorry ;)

I don't like to use CC's for plate load resistors. I will use them occasionally in the tone stack for the dropping resistor, grid resistors, signal dividing or separation/isolation resistors...anything where signal actually goes through resistance paths essentially. Using them as the load resistor going to ground (like the 47r) is rather pointless if going for mojo unless they are used everywhere in the entire amp. I just think there's way more mojo (why do I keep typing mofo? :dontknow: :laugh:) in other areas and techniques than resistors.
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Offline EKDENTON

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2017, 05:27:23 pm »
Very nice build,  and the amp sounds nice also!
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2017, 11:53:57 pm »
Thanks Ed as does your new one too. In a way I wanted this one originally to be 6AQ5 powered also but with the donor Hammond stuff and keeping tube count down, for this build anyway, was the way to go.
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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2017, 01:01:57 pm »
Finished cutting a new 1/2" birch ply baffle for the 10" speaker. It's a tight fit for the magnet and not just any 10" will fit unfortunately. But this Celestion sounds great thankfully and much better than an 8".
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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2017, 01:08:15 pm »
Found some speaker cloth that matches the black 'n gold cab and somewhat keeps the vintage Voxy diamond pattern style. It's a wrap figuratively and literally. Now for the 50w version...
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2017, 01:57:18 pm »
Looks great!

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2017, 02:22:30 pm »
Nice finish.

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2017, 03:49:23 pm »
COOL :thumbsup:

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2017, 07:38:15 pm »
Thanks all, this completes the project. Believe it or not the speaker came never mounted. The paper in the screw slots was un-broken and no signs of washer or nut marks. It sounds more like a true 12" greenback than the 10" greenbacks do.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline purpletele

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2017, 12:39:11 am »
Found some speaker cloth that matches the black 'n gold cab and somewhat keeps the vintage Voxy diamond pattern style. It's a wrap figuratively and literally. Now for the 50w version...

Very nice Joe!

I like the grill cloth, it looks better than the Vox cloth

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2017, 12:43:44 pm »
Very cool, I didn't see any audio clips, I'd love to hear it.  I am thinking of doing an EF86 based input with a single triode after to drive a tone stack as well, so it wouldn't be quite a 'normal' type channel, but close ;)

Edit: also I thought I'd read that a tone stack right after an EF86 isn't a great idea, but you've done it here, how does that sound?  (the main reason I wanted a second triode is to get the phase in sync with a top boost channel...)

~Phil
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:53:44 pm by pompeiisneaks »
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tUber Nerd =|D

Offline mresistor

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2017, 01:05:50 pm »
Wow! Very nice job Jojo. What a great way to re-purpose the Hammond and Vox parts.  Looks and sounds great.  Wouldn't mind hearing some distortion out of that EF86.


Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2017, 02:10:16 pm »
Very cool, I didn't see any audio clips, I'd love to hear it.  I am thinking of doing an EF86 based input with a single triode after to drive a tone stack as well, so it wouldn't be quite a 'normal' type channel, but close ;)

Edit: also I thought I'd read that a tone stack right after an EF86 isn't a great idea, but you've done it here, how does that sound?  (the main reason I wanted a second triode is to get the phase in sync with a top boost channel...)

~Phil
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=22181.msg236742#msg236742

I've made at least eight different pentode designs (EF86, 5879, 6AK5, 6AU6, etc) and have not had an issue with running them in V1 and interestingly like a Dr Z I recently saw also had to use a voltage divider (two 220k's) afterwards to get the tone and response I liked. Pentodes are fun creatures to play with and I set them up using less gain rather than the usual higher methods since they do have so much on tap. I get better tone and still plenty of gain/drive.

Most of the reasons for the negative comments of tone stacks right after is due to the signal loading. It is preferred to have a gain/make-up stage afterwards like done here to assure plenty of drive signal. Some tone stacks have more loss than others which make a little difference too.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Agent 86 build
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2017, 02:15:35 pm »
Wow! Very nice job Jojo. What a great way to re-purpose the Hammond and Vox parts.  Looks and sounds great.  Wouldn't mind hearing some distortion out of that EF86.
Thank you, I'm hoping to get some clips of pentode mode and higher gain settings soon?

When I have the NFB engaged it changes the feel, character, and dynamics a bit more than anticipated giving a sense of compression as well that I find interesting. I'm still learning some of the nuances with it as I'm trying to break the speaker in.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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