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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Question about Parallel triode gain stage  (Read 8293 times)

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Offline ClippIn4tae

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Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« on: September 24, 2017, 10:07:36 am »
So in a Hoffman blues jr preamp there is an unused triode on the v2a
Well doug hoffman ran in parallel to v2b (the master volume)

So upon researching i found info on setting the proper load resistor for using a parallel gain stage properly.

So in order to get the low noise gain boost (that would be the whole point of doing a parallel triode )
The load resistor must be right for running two gain stages parallel.
Other wise its not getting the most out of it as possible.

Can anyone help with this?

What would be the optimal resistors for this gain stage?

Also upon looking around at circuits why does a three gain stage circuit like blues jr not produce the gain as lets say a trainwreck express?
I know its a differnt  beast and designers set it to be that way
 

What changes could be done to this circuit to get more out of it???

Change plate/load values?

Swap tone stack closer to front/ end of preamp?

I am curious and would like to get a roaring monster out of this puppy.

Any suggestions?

Also there is that unused triode after tone stack before phase inverter that folks use for a cathode follower  (not needed) and i know it can be set up to get alot more horse power as well as great tone.

Guys help me out!

 Schematics/layouts needed with ideas!!!! 

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 11:05:19 am »
Amen to that.

As with alot of things we learn as we go.

And this circuit has allowed me to grow and learn alot.

Thanks.


Offline tubeswell

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 12:17:30 pm »
Parallel triodes will have 2 x the plate current of a single triode, so if you want to keep the voltages (and the gain) the same, then reduce the plate and cathode resistor's resistances by half. (If doing this, you'll also need to double the cathode bypass cap to get the same gain boost roll-off point.) The input capacitance also doubles, so you would want to reduce any grid stopper resistor resistance by half to get the same HF rolloff at the input. You will also want to reduce any grid leak resistor resistance by half to reduce input noise and keep the grids stable. The advantage of setting up parallel triodes this way is lower output impedance without losing gain, which helps preserve bandwidth and drive 'lossier' tone stacks better. (Of course you don't need to adopt any of these suggestions if your aim is more gain etc)
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 08:33:24 pm »
Thanks man!alot

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 08:41:58 pm »
Basically half everything?
 Plate/cathode /grid ressistors in front or on the tone stack if that would be the parallel, that would be the ideal location right?
And im just asking ,i love learning.

Its better for me than "just leave it the way it is" theory.

I get it. But i Ask bcuz i WANT TO LEARN!!!

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 05:34:18 am »
Talk about AWESOME!!!


IM OFF AND RUNNING NOW!

BOOTSTRAPPING CATHODE FOLLOWERS!

So cool.
Thanks

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 05:39:43 am »
You can do anything really. Parallel triode can be setup to add gain but I would question this at v1 as  you Will Never have a clean tone.


Tubeswell and Sluckeys advise la sensible and just. as me  have been playing geeetar a while  that said we will lean towards the complexity parallel stage provides.  No dual triode is perfect. There are some imbalance.  This adds thickness, but it is a balancing act. To much and you can never get a good clean.


NOW, one thing I disagree about is the Train wreck. Trainwerck does distort in the preamp very early and driver the output tubes with this. I have built a few. You can most certainly build a wreck in a blues Jr, but the power trans is short on ht amperage. And they usually sound better with 6v6 when using 2 tubes. El84 overdriven too easily when using only 2 of them. Headroom is a problem.


Read up on cold clippers and consider using either one in the unused triode stage or consider a small pentode like is discussed at great length in the book Sluckey suggested. If you have not ordered it yet You are not serious.


A train wreck is one of a kind and NOT for inexperienced builers, but if you want to builds one I have a detailed guide. No, I will not do a layout or schematic, I wouldn't want to cheat your learning. Sluckey rode my butt until I finally began doing my own.


This is so HUGE to understanding and successfully building a stable amp. I know, we all want it now. I am still learning a lot all the time and built many amps that had to be disassembled simply because I was in a hurry and considered the advice from the extremely knowledgeable to be over the top and really not necessary.


Here is the deal. You have to decide if you want to learn, or just want an amp. If you do want to learn get the book and even Morgan Jones valve amp book. It is a little more hifi oriented, but you will learn screen dissipation and many other tips on how to build very quiet amps.


If you just want an amp,, simply state what you would like and ask if someone wants to build it and for how  much. You can build an amp with only a multimeter, but you will never really understand until you see the signal. Oscilloscope get it, connectors probes. 2 channel and doesn't have to be a Tektronix. There is nothing in a tube amp that perfect.


After all this, if you already know all of what I wrote, please ignore it all. I am just telling you my mistakes and in no way ragging on you.

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 09:09:09 am »
Well put and well taken.

As a trouble shooter /fabricator/ thinker and tinker-er
As well as geetar player i love all of this.

And btw i already have amps-sss.
And i dont want somone to build it for me.

I ordered the books
And i enjoy each and every stage of this.

Love the smell of lead solder smoking too.

So on the forums i love to ask questions get convo started pick brains and ultimately learn and meet peiple

So thanks, i have taken stuff apart i build bcuz i was impatient.

I still am cleaning up from it.

Oh yea ive got 6v6s in the amp too.

Thanks

I was saying about making  blues jr circuit more like trainwreck style of preamp.
Maybe like more trainwreck style of power coming out rather than the low low gain/distortion style it is
I guess its to do with load lines and voicing.
 But it is what it is...and its good.

I cant wait to build another one. Really soon too im buying the hammond tube amp this friday.

I got a ao29 for 60$

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 09:14:06 am by ClippIn4tae »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 09:36:21 am »
I get it.  I have attached 2 pdf files.  Had to break the apart.  This is an actual Ken Fisher Trainwreck with unbelievable details.  I have built this amp many times, but only once using the exact parts.  I have that one.  I also built a preamp version for a few guys to plug into their loops.  I have made it with 2 6v6, 4 6v6 and also the liverpool which is 4 El84.


I have run it into a Marshall Super Lead power section and it is stupid loud.  I like stupid. :laugh:


If you want an amp that will rock, this is the one.  If you miss much of anything, it will oscillate.  It can be built in a Blues Jr with reverb and use 6V6's.  I guarantee it!   You were talking about it, so here you go.

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 11:34:52 am »
Dang Thanks alot! I like you! So when you say blues jr with reverb i have a hoffman turret board blues jr no reverb .

And ive just been playing and learning about circuits with it.

And i like the idea of making the most out of it for me.

Thanks again.

All suggestions and ideas always welcome

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 03:43:54 pm »
Dang Thanks alot! I like you! So when you say blues jr with reverb i have a hoffman turret board blues jr no reverb .

And ive just been playing and learning about circuits with it.

And i like the idea of making the most out of it for me.

Thanks again.

All suggestions and ideas always welcome
Well it doesn't have to have verb.  For instance, I tried verb in the AC15 and removed it.  Just did not sound right.


BUT, it is pretty easy to add the 1 tube reverb beside the board.

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 04:22:29 pm »
Can you help me out with that? Point me in the direction?

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2017, 03:20:40 pm »
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7957.0


A bunch of info on one tube verb.   If that is your reference.  Takes a socket and a couple of 3 post lugs.  Just look at the schematic, I have actually built it in the tube socket, but it was not as sturdy as I preferred.

Offline ClippIn4tae

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 07:01:41 pm »
Thata great. How did u do it? Like the first examples? Using only three turrets huh?
Im building a ab763ish lite with 6973 cathode bias tubes and im debating to use the extra tube for this or for a ODS drive stage.  I keep going back and forth.

I think i will go with the verb.  I understad most the guys who play use Humbles clean channel pumped up to get the drive tone.

Anyway thats a whole other topic i dont even want to get into on here. Thanks

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Question about Parallel triode gain stage
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2017, 04:22:27 pm »
I have done it any way to make it fit.  I have no corner on the market.

 


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