multimeter

[dude]

Been looking for an inexpensive LCD multimeter that can also test filter Capacitors up to 70 or 80uf. I've seen some that have probes that can measure temperature too, would be nice to set my solder station temp when I change tips. Saw the Extech's they measure temp.

I have a BK 2704B, several years old and I'm having problems getting consistent reading as when it was new, could be the probes but only goes to 20uf and can't check caps without inserting the ends in the meters small holes, not auto range but not that important.


Was looking at these Extech 400 series, any suggestions?    https://www.mouser.com/catalogviewer/default.aspx?page=2308&highlight=685-EX430&catalogculture=en-US&catalog=648 


Any suggestions, like to stay under a $100


al


     

[shooter]

some of the features I like, true RMS, auto-ranging, continuity with beep, something close to measuring 600-1000vdc., backlight.  extras; relative measuring, min/max store, frequency, cap, diode measuring.

[dude]

What is Relative function and Frequency?

[sluckey]

Usually all voltage readings are referenced (relative) to zero volts. Same for current or resistance. Relative means all subsequent readings will be relative to the present reading. For example, you have a reading of 100V on the display. Press the relative button and the display will show 0V, even though we know there is really 100V present at that point. 100V becomes our reference point. Now check voltage at another point and maybe the meter shows +25V. That means this reading is 25V higher than the other reading, so the actual voltage would be 125v. Now check another point and the meter reads -10V. This means this reading is 10v less than the original reference voltage, so the actual voltage would be 90v.

Frequency is simply the frequency of an AC signal. If you check the voltage of your filament winding you may find that it's 6.3VAC RMS. Push the frequency button (or switch position) and you may read 60Hz (if you live in the USA.

[dude]

Thanks, I can see the relative function could be useful in checking two points that should have the same voltage, sometimes a resistor has to be lifted to accurately measure but measuring the relative voltage "could" also give a clue of maybe a drifted or bad resistor. I see many uses.I assume this option can easily be selected with a switch, a button switch is most likely, wouldn't want to have that on and not know it when checking if a cap has drained... ouch


The reviews of some of these meters isn't so hot on reliability, most are made in China, not that that's bad but the reviews say a lot of these meters are bad right out of the box. I guess all I can do is try to find professional reviews. When I was young, ha, quality was quality now it's a crap shoot.



al



 

[pompeiisneaks]

I would say look at this one: ANENG AN8008

25$ and EEVBlog gave it a pretty good review/test:

Not sure if that one does everything you need but it's getting a pretty great review there.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Oh I've also heard pretty consistently crap reviews of most multimeters that do temp readings, they're usually really bad. Would love to know otherwise though.

~Phil

[mresistor]

https://www.banggood.com/ANENG-AN8008-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-AC-DC-Current-Voltage-Resistance-Frequency-Capacitance-Test-p-1157985.html?cur_warehouse=USA

[lego4040]

with todays technology 30-50 is a good range, I was looking at this recently https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1NV5J58567&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Machine+Shop+Hardware-_-9SIA1NV5J58567&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrIGDvbvO2AIVRpV-Ch3LQQ2bEAkYASABEgJy9vD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[pompeiisneaks]

with todays technology 30-50 is a good range, I was looking at this recently https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1NV5J58567&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Machine+Shop+Hardware-_-9SIA1NV5J58567&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrIGDvbvO2AIVRpV-Ch3LQQ2bEAkYASABEgJy9vD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

That looks almost like a 100% clone of the one I posted, some other chinese rebrand of a chinese brand lol :P

~Phil

[lego4040]

Pirates pirating eachother 

[DummyLoad]

EX330 will work for you.


--pete

[mresistor]

Yes but Pete - that Extech 330 is like 4 times the price. I have an EX411 and it is a full size true rms meter..  but  had I saw this little AN8008 I think I would have gotten it instead as a backup to my Fluke.
Phil - I bought my EX411 because it is true RMS and also has the K type thermocouple. I have used the thermocouple and it works well and so do the rest of the functions on the meter.


However I really like the Klein MM700 for the money.

[DummyLoad]

4x the price of what? the EX330 is $59. are you referring the cheap $15 meter? i thought we were comparing to the EX430 which is $94. the EX330 has a 200uF range the EX430 is 100uF. main difference is accuracy. .3% vs. .5%.

a word of warning: those cheap $15 meter won't last, the selector switches fail and the input protection is joke. of all the cheap crap from china that hits the shores, the EXTECH stuff is at the top of the pile.

--pete

[Ed_Chambley]

I would never say anyone needs to purchase a $500 meter.  My experience with meters.  I have a Simpson 260 probably over 50 years old, needle meter Analogue.  I like to keep at least 2 of these around.  Of course, accuracy is only as good as you are if they are calibrated.


Years ago I rean across a Fluke 77 in a pawn shop still in the box with probes.  Took me 3 trips (I go by this place often) for them to say ok to $50.  Just recently the LCD got cloudy and I put a lense kit in.  Easy and cheap.  I cannot say how long I have had it.  It has lived through 9 cheap meters that I know of.  The chinese meters are cheap and attractive, especially like Cen-Tech (photo attached) from Harbor Freight which is $24 right now.  I bought 12 of these wholesale and gave all but 2 away.  Really they are fairly good.  These are also large, so I do not have to change my 5.5x Reading glasses to 2.25x and then back to see the numbers and letters on little caps.  Also, I have a lot of trouble seeing the difference betweeen red and orange.


Finally I took on an old BenJAMMAN Franklin quote and applied it to test equipment. It is: The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.


For Chrstmas I received a Fluke 28II, which is something I am thrilled with, but would not buy as it is not needed.  I used it to test all my other meters.


Old Fluke 77, never calibrated-Easily on the mark.
Fluke 87II which I got at an estate sale for $35.  On the mark as expected.  This one os only about 2 years old.
and now the $500 Fluke 28II, which is waterproof, RMS, Frequency..................and holds toilet paper


Do I need this high quality?  You bet you butt.  Nice stuff is nice and just because you may not have the money to purchase at retail doesn't mean you cannot find a deal.  So I try to keep my eyes open because I do not know anyone who would not want the best possible. 

[dude]

Thanks for all the info. I must have read spec on at least 10 meters. As Ed says, the bitterness in quality stays longer than the cheap price, so true. But I don't need a $400/500 meter. My 15 year old BK served me well but now it's not giving me consistency reading and some of it's features are way outdated.


All meters I looked at were Chinese made, around from $25 to $60. I checked out their manuals and any professional reviews I could find. I came to the conclusion with cheaper Chinese meters it's a crap shoot but what's the "cream of the crap...?" True RMS is important for accurate readings and auto ranging isn't as easy as one may think with most of these meters. A lot of these meters you have to push a switch twice, turn off and then on, do this and do that, to change from ohms to capacitance. My BK in not auto ranging, and all I have to do is turn the dial once for every function, very simple and "fast". So, I was looking at meters that are both auto and manual but that's where you had to do several things to change the functions, not for me.

So, I'm basically stuck on what to get. Do I step up in price ...? All I want is an accurate multimeter that takes a 9 volt battery (lasts way longer than two AAA), looks like I don't need auto ranging but would like the temp reading.


I'm leaning toward the Extech 411


http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/extech/multimeters/standard-digital-multimeters/true-rms-manual-ranging-digital-multimeter-750vac-1000vdc-20a-ex411.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_qTRia3T2AIVh1cNCh27sgBqEAAYASAAEgJWs_D_BwE


EDIT: THE EXTECH IS OUT, NO CAPACITANCE READINGS


What do you guys use?


al       

[mresistor]

Yes Pete   4 x the price of the cheap AN8008-9999.  But even the supposedly better higher priced meters have their flaws and cheapness. The selector swith on my Fluke busted off a couple years back. When I disassembled it I nothice the remaining shaft inside was hexagonal. So I went out the garage and found a hex key the same size and cut it down to fit and
viola!   The Fluke lives on..

[mresistor]

Dude  -  Did you look at the Klein MM700? 


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Klein-Tool-MM700-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Ranging-1000V-21118/152857639756?epid=691172408&hash=item2397067b4c:g:hGMAAOSwYwJaTD5X

[dude]

Dude  -  Did you look at the Klein MM700? 


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Klein-Tool-MM700-Digital-Multimeter-Auto-Ranging-1000V-21118/152857639756?epid=691172408&hash=item2397067b4c:g:hGMAAOSwYwJaTD5X

No, looked at the MM-1000, too expensive at this point but I will, thanks

[dude]

Thanks mresistor, I like the Klein, made in USA. That ebay auction MM700 has no leads or temp probes But home depot has the MM700 for $99, they also have a MM600 for $70.


The only difference is true RMS and low Lz setting. Do you guys think $30 more for these two features are worth it for amp building and repair?  Here are the differences:


https://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/d8/d877cc18-53db-4489-b9f5-501af860a1e3.pdf

[sluckey]

If I was gonna spend $70 I would want true rms. The 700 also has a bar graph, kinda neat for watching a tremolo signal swing up and down. And a higher capacitance capability. I'm not interested in LO Z measurements. I'm not interested in a temp probe. Doesn't everyone have an IR temp meter these days? If not, how do you tell when your Himalayan salt block reaches 400 degrees?   

[dude]

Thanks again for all the feedback. I’m going with the Klein MM700, $99. Most places are $25 more. I figure if I intended to spend $50, $50 more for a better quality meter is worth it to me. Hopefully, a new meter will motivate me to build the two chassis’s I have sitting in my shop.  I often wonder’d if these meters need to be calibrated after a year or two? Always good to have two meters on hand.   


Al

[sluckey]

Amazon has the 700 for $89

[Ed_Chambley]

Yes Pete   4 x the price of the cheap AN8008-9999.  But even the supposedly better higher priced meters have their flaws and cheapness. The selector swith on my Fluke busted off a couple years back. When I disassembled it I nothice the remaining shaft inside was hexagonal. So I went out the garage and found a hex key the same size and cut it down to fit and
viola!   The Fluke lives on..

I do not notice this model? Which fluke is this? Did you get it new and register it? Just curious as I would be speaking with customer service and I bet they will send you a new part. After I bought the LCD screen for my 77 from an eBay seller I wrote customer service telling them I was displeased they told me if I registered it which I did they would replace the defective parts. Fluke sent me a replacement part  just by sending an email. They also assigned a rep to me. This makes a difference to me, This one will.not  be hitting my local landfill, what a nice name for a dump,


Everything can break and.I am not as  careful as I should be.  No sense in spending too much! I guess since we live in a global disposable society, it is just easier and cheaper to buy Chinese and replace the whole meter when something breaks.

[mresistor]

Ed this is the model ..   http://www.fluke.com/fluke/tten/digital-multimeters/fluke-81438.htm?pid=56138   It was sold by Sears, some say it was made in China but who knows for sure. I registered it and will contact Fluke and see what results.

[dude]

Does true RMS only apply to AC, meaning if a sine wave has noise a True RMS will measure that voltage and current more accurately then an averaging meter, non true RMS.


My question would be using a multimeter in Amp building or repair does one not necessarily need a true RMS meter when taking DC measurements?  Does true RMS only applies to AC?


Now I know measuring LEDs, dimmers, etc an averaging RMS meter can give lower voltages (only ac?) but what scenario would apply needing true RMS in amp repair? Take a VVR (DC), as you turn down the VVR does that cause noise in a sine way, or as my question above that only noisy ac sine waves are affected.


al

   

[sluckey]

True RMS applies only to AC measurements. More specifically, only sine waves such as the wall outlet voltages. Or the AC voltages on the secondaries of a power transformer, or the low frequency tremolo signal in most guitar amps. If you want an accurate reading on your line voltage coming into your house, you need a true RMS meter.

[dude]

I want a good meter primarily for amp repair and was debating on the Klein 600 oo 700. The basic difference being the MM700 has true rms, lowz that can detect ac ghost voltage. But I also live in a 160 year old house that i’m always working on it’s wiring. The difference is $30, not much.  Off the topic, I have a Hammond PT with a 115 and 120 primary, I want to use the 115 side to raise the B+ but that will raise the ac filaments too high. I know you usually suggest using the right PT rather than mickey the filament voltage but to lower the filament voltage using the 115 primary, could a resistor be used, if so what wattage

[sluckey]

to lower the filament voltage using the 115 primary, could a resistor be used, if so what wattage

Sure. Use the tube charts to determine the total filament current. Then note how much voltage you need to drop. Then just use your calculator to determine the value and wattage rating of the resistor needed.

[jjasilli]

Yes, but for an AC filament supply, cut the total resistance in half, and put a 1/2 value R on ea leg of the supply.

[Ed_Chambley]

Yes, but for an AC filament supply, cut the total resistance in half, and put a 1/2 value R on ea leg of the supply.

Or they may not balance well and hum in that oh so annoying way

[PRR]

> If you want an accurate reading on your line voltage coming into your house, you need a true RMS meter.

If your incoming wave is not very-nearly Sine, you have a worse problem than voltage.

Take a simple pathological case. You get, not a Sine, but a Square. If the peak voltage is 120V, an RMS meter will say 120V, and your tube heaters will heat correctly. BUT you expect every 100V from your PT to give you 140V of DC, because you expect Sine power. With Square at 120V RMS you will get 99V DC from every 100V AC, and your DC powered amplifier will give half-power.

But you almost can't get Square at your house. You know a long cable on your guitar rolls-off the highs. And transformers always high-cut. How long is the cable to the generator? How many transformers in it? Here it is at least 50 miles and 6 transformers. If it was a telephone line, it would only thud-thud, no sizzle at all. And power transformers allow extra leakage inductance to control bolted-fault currents so the lines don't explode before the fuse-link drops out. And in many areas there is considerable rotating machinery with electrical "inertia".

You meter for what you want to know. For room-heaters, incandescent lamps, and tube heaters, RMS is the valid measure. For cap-input DC rectifiers, Peak is the main point of interest.

Very few "natural" waveforms really deviate a whole lot from the 1.414 ratio of Sine. Square is the low end, triangle/ramp has peaks a little high, and narrow spikes can have quite high peak on low RMS.

I know of *one* case where RMS is "natural", because the waveform is un-natural. Calibrating SCR dimmers for incandescent lamps. The wave (I'm sure you know) is a hacked Sine. The RMS (what the lamp responds to) can drop to half and the Peak hardly changed. The response of an Averaging meter is in-between; and sadly not documented for the dimmers I was calibrating.

You did mention noise (hiss). This is a special case. And one that RMS chips do not handle perfectly. Computational RMS requires you Square the input. So a 100:1 range of input requires 10,000:1 range of internal representation with accuracy. Crest Factor. Most ugly waves run only to maybe 6:1 Crest Factor and most RMS chips are in this range. But truly random hiss has theoretically infinite crest factor. Rare peaks far-far above the average/RMS. "It can be shown" that chippy RMS converters read a dB or so low from the peaks they clip. The gold standard here is some form of bolometer: put the hiss to a resistor and measure how hot it gets. Which of course means a looong amplifier of good stability and calibration.

[Ed_Chambley]

More things I did not know

[sluckey]

That's the most boring presentation I've seen in a loooooong time!

I used a bolometer almost daily since the late '60s until I retired. The power sensor for a HP microwave power meter is a bolometer. In the early days we even called the power sensor a bolometer. Later on we just called it a power sensor.

[PRR]

> That's the most boring presentation I've seen in a loooooong time!

But wait! There's more!

[shooter]

But wait! There's more!

nooooo!, I had to step out for another h....beer
My Daughter has Alexa amazon AI box, they are vocal twins
At least this one lost me in the weeds, Alexa gets all hung up on imaginary numbers, couldn't find Zydeco(sp) music and and ...I finally got bored n went fishing

We measured ionized radiation in CT with SS detectors, but I believe the "glass" front end, refracted for the SS detector, I just knew when they were bad n the brass housings from the bad ones came in handy for lots of things.
IIRC the Radar had a pin diode? inside the waveguide, or we inserted for measurements.  Measuring 4deg K, we used a stack of diodes mounted inside the cryostat, measure, cheat sheet says; 37mV = 9.6deg K (example only)
I have never heard of bolometer, but I lived a sheltered life

[Justa]

Been using Flukes for decades both at home and business (techs & Eng's) before I retired and don't remember any of them failing or going in for repair (~25 Flukes).  I really like the robust leads that are shipped with Flukes and have seen some pathetic leads shipped with cheaper meters.  Since we are measuring hundreds of volts typically lead quality is very important.

[Ed_Chambley]

That's the most boring presentation I've seen in a loooooong time!

I used a bolometer almost daily since the late '60s until I retired. The power sensor for a HP microwave power meter is a bolometer. In the early days we even called the power sensor a bolometer. Later on we just called it a power sensor.

I was always told if I am bored, I must be boring. Sluckey is not boring most of the time. I can say he is mellowing.

[Ed_Chambley]

> That's the most boring presentation I've seen in a loooooong time!

But wait! There's more!

Come on PRR,  wow that is way to much info to much to process at once.


After this and and OT Windows and learning all that stuff JJ linked about them, I am taking a break for a day..


BUT thanks, I will get there.

[sluckey]

Actually, I probably am boring most of the time. Occasionally I may do or say something a little funny, or I may piss someone off. Sometimes I do both at the same time! Can be entertaining if you're sitting on the side line.   

[dude]

since the late '60s until I retired.

Sluckey, retired in the late 60's.....? Boy you must be in your nineties   at least.



In 69, I was 19 at woodstock and I'm an old fart

[sluckey]

Now you know I retired in 2012. You were at the party! 

In '69 I was finishing up trade school, about to start my first real electronics job, and wondering how these changes were gonna affect my draft status! 

[dude]

Maybe I got lucky, in 68 I drew a high number and was getting ready to start college in the fall anyway. Unfortunately it was business administration rather than electronics, that's why know nothing and need you.....


Have a good one 

[Ed_Chambley]

Actually, I probably am boring most of the time. Occasionally I may do or say something a little funny, or I may piss someone off. Sometimes I do both at the same time! Can be entertaining if you're sitting on the side line.   

No not really boring at all, just getting lazy. I have not seen you piss anyone off in a long time and I don't know why. You are good at it.

[sluckey]

Maybe I am getting mellow. We did just have a great visit from our Colorado friends, milehighLori and Bob. 

[dude]

Mile high and Colorado, nice to have friends from Colorado    you guys are funny

[Ed_Chambley]

Maybe I am getting mellow. We did just have a great visit from our Colorado friends, milehighLori and Bob. 

WOW Dude did you hit some dispensary weed or did you opt for an edible.


Personally, I know nothing about this other than what I have seen on TV.

[mresistor]

Ed  maybe time for a trip to Colorado - may I suggest the western slope and Grand Junction - for some fine wine - and if so inclined - edibles..   but mostly the wine.. 

[sluckey]

Gotta find out why Lori chose "milehighLori" as her email name. I know Denver is referred to as the mile high city. But where I come from, "mile high" has a couple other meanings also! Wonder if she thought about that? 

[shooter]

"mile high"

I became a "certified" member in the rocky's (9,200')