50W Marshall Volume/Tone Project

[krampus]

Hello guys,

found this forum on friends recoomendation, he said he comes here for all the wise stuff he needs, so decided to give it a shot.

So far, I've build 2 amps, a 18w marshall, that latter became volume and tone only build, and tweed deluxe that I gave as a graduation gift.
Bunch od pedals too.

What I know after flipping 20+ amps and building 2, Volume and Tone is all I need. Less thinking, more playing.


Now I'm in dilema. My new band is loud, or too loud for 18W marshall clone anyway.

Last few weeks Im jumping around idea of JTM45 or Plexi 50W clone that has only Volume and Tone, and then I was suggested to come here and ask a bit.

Anyone done something similar? Is it actually possible? Is this idea crazy in a bad way?

regards,
K.

[92Volts]

A jump from 18w to 50w might not be as big a difference as you need or expect. Doubling power is a 3dB increase, which human ears perceive as less than a doubling in volume.

Depending on the speaker(s) you use with the 18W, you could get similar results with more efficient speakers and/or more of the same (4x12 cab compared to something smaller). For maximum volume you'd of course need both higher wattage, and more speakers.

If you do think this is the right way to go, you might want to connect the 18w preamp to a larger poweramp. It sounds like the only thing you removed from the 18W was effects. I don't think you'd want to remove the gain pots from the preamp of one of the larger Marshalls. You'd end up with a lot of preamp distortion all the time, rather than controlling overdrive/tone with the volume (which sounds like your goal).

If anything, you might want to remove the master volume and keep the "gain" control.

[bnwitt]

Well, and this is just my opinion, in this modern era most professionals are choosing their amp(s) for tone rather than power and micing them to the PA.  The last time I saw a concert there wasn't a single amp on stage.  Everything was back stage isolated and miced to the sound system.  The performers were wearing in ear monitors and the audience was treated to a beautiful mix controlled by the sound guy who was way back up in the stands with the board.  Now that is the opposite extreme of what you are dealing with but you should seek a happy medium between these two.  Get everyone miced up, run through the PA and turn everything down on stage to protect your ears.  Then set the mix for the audience.  You might also consider individual in ear monitoring mixes from different bus outputs for each band member so everyone hears what the want or need.  Everyone just trying to be loud won't help the band's performance at all.  But that's just my opinion.

Quote from Deep Purple:

Darker Than Blue has very amusing recollections from Ken Flegg, a former Marshall engineer, who accompanied the band on the trip to Japan in August 1971:

The third gig at the Budokan in Tokyo on the 17th August went well with no significant problems, other than the acoustics of the hall could have been better. Possibly because of this, the subject of the monitors came up again and Ian Gillan asked over the mic before Strange Kind of Woman: “Yeah everything up here please. A bit more monitor if you’ve got it.” Then Ritchie asks “Can I have everything louder than everything else?” which Ian Gillan repeats “Yeah, can he have everything louder than everything else.” This remained on the final master.

[jjasilli]

There is no simple or specific answer to your question.  No particular approach will appeal to everyone.  This is probably the most frequently asked question of the forum.  Once you get enough volume, you may find you have too much clean headroom for power amp overdrive.  This issue has plagued electric guitarists for thousands of years! 


If you really want simplicity, you can entirely by-pass your amp's tonestack, and control tone only from your guitar.  The tonestack has major signal loss.  Bypassing it may make your amp louder. But you will lose the FMV mid-dip.  Just another alternative.

[krampus]

Thank you for your insight guys.

A jump from 18w to 50w might not be as big a difference as you need or expect. Doubling power is a 3dB increase, which human ears perceive as less than a doubling in volume.

Depending on the speaker(s) you use with the 18W, you could get similar results with more efficient speakers and/or more of the same (4x12 cab compared to something smaller). For maximum volume you'd of course need both higher wattage, and more speakers.

If you do think this is the right way to go, you might want to connect the 18w preamp to a larger poweramp. It sounds like the only thing you removed from the 18W was effects. I don't think you'd want to remove the gain pots from the preamp of one of the larger Marshalls. You'd end up with a lot of preamp distortion all the time, rather than controlling overdrive/tone with the volume (which sounds like your goal).

If anything, you might want to remove the master volume and keep the "gain" control.

I've tried with 4x12, 72 Marshall cab I think, and the other guitarists 1987x sounds louder, not anywhere near tonewise, just annoying louder sound

SVT Classic is also not really helping. Im the last addition to that band, I got no saying in lets turn down so you all can hear my awesome amp :D

On the subject of making 2 knob plexi, you might be right, who knows what will turn out if I just chop everything out of there

Well, and this is just my opinion, in this modern era most professionals are choosing their amp(s) for tone rather than power and micing them to the PA.  The last time I saw a concert there wasn't a single amp on stage.  Everything was back stage isolated and miced to the sound system.  The performers were wearing in ear monitors and the audience was treated to a beautiful mix controlled by the sound guy who was way back up in the stands with the board.  Now that is the opposite extreme of what you are dealing with but you should seek a happy medium between these two.  Get everyone miced up, run through the PA and turn everything down on stage to protect your ears.  Then set the mix for the audience.  You might also consider individual in ear monitoring mixes from different bus outputs for each band member so everyone hears what the want or need.  Everyone just trying to be loud won't help the band's performance at all.  But that's just my opinion.

Quote from Deep Purple:

Darker Than Blue has very amusing recollections from Ken Flegg, a former Marshall engineer, who accompanied the band on the trip to Japan in August 1971:

The third gig at the Budokan in Tokyo on the 17th August went well with no significant problems, other than the acoustics of the hall could have been better. Possibly because of this, the subject of the monitors came up again and Ian Gillan asked over the mic before Strange Kind of Woman: “Yeah everything up here please. A bit more monitor if you’ve got it.” Then Ritchie asks “Can I have everything louder than everything else?” which Ian Gillan repeats “Yeah, can he have everything louder than everything else.” This remained on the final master.

Hehe, I'm familiar with this trend, but here we like it loud on stage, and I don't like using in ear to be hones

There is no simple or specific answer to your question.  No particular approach will appeal to everyone.  This is probably the most frequently asked question of the forum.  Once you get enough volume, you may find you have too much clean headroom for power amp overdrive.  This issue has plagued electric guitarists for thousands of years! 


If you really want simplicity, you can entirely by-pass your amp's tonestack, and control tone only from your guitar.  The tonestack has major signal loss.  Bypassing it may make your amp louder. But you will lose the FMV mid-dip.  Just another alternative.

My idea was that I still want it to sound like Marshall, just reduce tweaking options and bring simplicity, which I really like the older I get

[bnwitt]

Hehe, I'm familiar with this trend, but here we like it loud on stage, and I don't like using in ear to be honest

Well get used to saying "huh, what did you say?" as I guarantee you will be hard of hearing after playing loud on stage for too many sets.

[brewdude]

I would be inclined to try a 2xEL34 cathode biased 36watt in the vein of a “double powered lite 2b”—perhaps with a parallel/cascade switch.

[bnwitt]

The 36 watt Marshall comes in several iteritences as well.  I built a couple of those for customers years ago and they are quite loud especially when paired with a 4 x 12

[VMS]

Everything is possible, here is a little cut and paste schematic:

[Ritchie200]

Quote from Deep Purple:
Darker Than Blue has very amusing recollections from Ken Flegg, a former Marshall engineer, who accompanied the band on the trip to Japan in August 1971:

The third gig at the Budokan in Tokyo on the 17th August went well with no significant problems, other than the acoustics of the hall could have been better. Possibly because of this, the subject of the monitors came up again and Ian Gillan asked over the mic before Strange Kind of Woman: “Yeah everything up here please. A bit more monitor if you’ve got it.” Then Ritchie asks “Can I have everything louder than everything else?” which Ian Gillan repeats “Yeah, can he have everything louder than everything else.” This remained on the final master.

I like that quote from Ritchie!  Looks kind of familiar...  Actually at the time, Deep Purple's stage volume was incredible.  Everyone was playing through multiple Majors. Jon Lord was Major pumping the Hammond through a stack of full range PA cabinets with horns.  The ring modulated screeches would shred your eardrums.  Ian Gillan was using two Shure Vocal Master columns pointed in his direction on the floor in front of the stage for monitors.  On top of all this, everybody was miced up and sent through a Marshall PA that eventually hit 10,000 watts by 1975 that they toured with. Marshall had a separate division called Marshall Hire, that built custom PA's for their big name clients.  When I saw them in 73 they were crushingly loud, but you could still hear everybody.  So they managed to accommodate the on stage volume with the PA.  Have you seen the Rig Rundown for ACDC? Angus is running like 12 100watt super leads wide open into those 4x12's you see on stage.  Brian May still has his "Wall of destruction" stack of AC30's that all but a few (for backup) are cranked wide open loud and proud.  Robin Trower still has at least two half stacks turned all the way up.  Tony Iomi and Geezer Butler have crushing stage volume.  I realize these are the exception, but I would have to say they have the BEST live sound out there.  In the revamped Rainbow, Ritchie is playing these tiny combos on stage and they sound like crap under a chicken coup in the middle of July.  Notes die out, no compression, no guitar/speaker interaction - just BS in my humble opinion.  How about when Clapton plinks his way through Sunshine of your Love with his little Fender combo with a mic parked in front of it.  Please....

As far as 92volts comment on the decibel equivalent of wattage increase.  I have read the same explanation many, many times and I just shake my head.  I remember early on my Bandmaster getting spanked by a Marshall 50.  I also remember my Marshall 50's having a hard time keeping up with a Marshall 100.  And I remember total domination with the Major - even over a blazing 300 watt SVT rig.  I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.  I have experienced it and I know there is a perceptible difference.  I think Krampus is on the right track here with the 50 to try and keep up with his bandmates.  The EL34's are going to sound much better running at 50% than the 18 watt wide open.

My two centavos
Jim

[krampus]

Oh wow, thanks guys for all the replies! :)

Everything is possible, here is a little cut and paste schematic:

this looks interesting, can you elaborate just a bit on what has been done here? I'm still not that good at reading schematics

Quote from Deep Purple:
Darker Than Blue has very amusing recollections from Ken Flegg, a former Marshall engineer, who accompanied the band on the trip to Japan in August 1971:

The third gig at the Budokan in Tokyo on the 17th August went well with no significant problems, other than the acoustics of the hall could have been better. Possibly because of this, the subject of the monitors came up again and Ian Gillan asked over the mic before Strange Kind of Woman: “Yeah everything up here please. A bit more monitor if you’ve got it.” Then Ritchie asks “Can I have everything louder than everything else?” which Ian Gillan repeats “Yeah, can he have everything louder than everything else.” This remained on the final master.

I like that quote from Ritchie!  Looks kind of familiar...  Actually at the time, Deep Purple's stage volume was incredible.  Everyone was playing through multiple Majors. Jon Lord was Major pumping the Hammond through a stack of full range PA cabinets with horns.  The ring modulated screeches would shred your eardrums.  Ian Gillan was using two Shure Vocal Master columns pointed in his direction on the floor in front of the stage for monitors.  On top of all this, everybody was miced up and sent through a Marshall PA that eventually hit 10,000 watts by 1975 that they toured with. Marshall had a separate division called Marshall Hire, that built custom PA's for their big name clients.  When I saw them in 73 they were crushingly loud, but you could still hear everybody.  So they managed to accommodate the on stage volume with the PA.  Have you seen the Rig Rundown for ACDC? Angus is running like 12 100watt super leads wide open into those 4x12's you see on stage.  Brian May still has his "Wall of destruction" stack of AC30's that all but a few (for backup) are cranked wide open loud and proud.  Robin Trower still has at least two half stacks turned all the way up.  Tony Iomi and Geezer Butler have crushing stage volume.  I realize these are the exception, but I would have to say they have the BEST live sound out there.  In the revamped Rainbow, Ritchie is playing these tiny combos on stage and they sound like crap under a chicken coup in the middle of July.  Notes die out, no compression, no guitar/speaker interaction - just BS in my humble opinion.  How about when Clapton plinks his way through Sunshine of your Love with his little Fender combo with a mic parked in front of it.  Please....

As far as 92volts comment on the decibel equivalent of wattage increase.  I have read the same explanation many, many times and I just shake my head.  I remember early on my Bandmaster getting spanked by a Marshall 50.  I also remember my Marshall 50's having a hard time keeping up with a Marshall 100.  And I remember total domination with the Major - even over a blazing 300 watt SVT rig.  I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.  I have experienced it and I know there is a perceptible difference.  I think Krampus is on the right track here with the 50 to try and keep up with his bandmates.  The EL34's are going to sound much better running at 50% than the 18 watt wide open.

My two centavos
Jim

That was my tought in the start, 3db or whatever the difference is, I hear it and feel it

[krampus]

Also I was made aware of the fact there is an amp that follows this logic on the market (here in Germany I don't really keep track on custom amp market :D )

It's called Satellite Cuda, 2xEL34 or 2xKT66 with GZ34 and 2 preamp tubes. So I took a listen to it and it's about right on the track of what I want, so now I just have to create it 

[VMS]

this looks interesting, can you elaborate just a bit on what has been done here? I'm still not that good at reading schematics

It's a 50 Watt plexi poweramp including the phase-inverter and preamp from 18 watt with tremolo channel tone control. If you like the non-tremolo channel tone control more you can use that too.

[VMS]

It's called Satellite Cuda, 2xEL34 or 2xKT66 with GZ34 and 2 preamp tubes. So I took a listen to it and it's about right on the track of what I want, so now I just have to create it 

From inside pictures looks relatively easy to create:


https://reverb.com/item/4312735-2016-satellite-amplifiers-barracuda

[krampus]

Great find, I saved those photos.

From what I see it is Mercury Magnetics Laydown plexi/jtm PT, maybe their 50W OT for Marshall...this should not be mission imposibble I think

[krampus]

Thanks to all of the responses I've got, I made extended research on this lazy sunday and decided I will go for it.

So my question is now, is it wiser to try and do this with JTM or JMP circuit as a starting point?

When I decide that I will order OT from Classic Tone and localy get my PT made (handmade for cca 35-40 usd, cant beat that, super high quality, old guy makes them for 40 years now or so, amazing).
Then I will proceed with CAD chassis design and so on

[VMS]

Do you plan to use tube rectifier?


Also here is some info on jcm800 power section and how it differs from the others:


https://ampbooks.com/mobile/classic-circuits/marshall-jcm800-2204-power-amp/

[krampus]

Do you plan to use tube rectifier?


Also here is some info on jcm800 power section and how it differs from the others:


https://ampbooks.com/mobile/classic-circuits/marshall-jcm800-2204-power-amp/

I like the idea of switchable rectifier option to be honest. I've noticed I always like rectifier in tone when I downtune my guitar, and that is often.

[VMS]

I like the idea of switchable rectifier option to be honest. I've noticed I always like rectifier in tone when I downtune my guitar, and that is often.

Then i would use jtm as a starting point, jmp may have too big caps on the power supply for tube rectifier.


I hope others with more experience on these 50 watters will chime in too.

[silverfox]

Everything is possible, here is a little cut and paste schematic:

I think I'd add a Cut control to that circuit as that would clean up the excessive harmonics a simple tone control will pass. I know you're looking for simplicity but the Cut control would, I believe enhance the tone greatly.

silverfox.

[DummyLoad]

something like this? 


--pete

[dennyg]

an option to single tone control would be to build a standard plexi pre-amp with 'normal' and 'bright' stages but fed by only a single input jack, then put volume pots after each one and blend the two for tone.  See Sluckey's Dual 50 schematic.  I just built a 20W version and liked the blended stages so much that i'm going to use that for the clean channel in my next build w/o tone control.  the gain channel will have it's own tone stack but just going to run the blended inputs directly into the PI for the clean channel.  I think you might like that a lot. 

[krampus]

I took a look, it's an interesting option.

My OT will arrive in 3 months (friend will bring it, woohoo) so I have time to sort all of my options by then. And work on 100W hiwatt build for my main band hah.

[krampus]

Small update: ordered PT, payed for OT, found 4 Mullard el34 NOS in neighbourhood, so everything is good! :)

Another thing happend, my friend that plays bass wants 100W valve bass amp, so now I have to approach that too