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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals  (Read 10778 times)

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Offline Toxophilite

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hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« on: February 22, 2018, 03:08:07 am »
I'm thinking this is an impedance issue
 I find that my guitars with lower output pickups (vintage Gretschs with hilotrons 3k) require  a lot less level on my distortion /over drive pedals (MXR distortion and a boss super overdrive) than my guitars with higher gain pickups (vintage Gretsch  with DeArmond dynasonsics 9.6k). I have a boss G-7 EQ before the distortion pedals.
I've noticed this same effect with filtertron equipped guitars and my Yamahas archtops which have higher gain pickups.


I have to turn the level on the pedal up higher, with high gain pickups  to achieve the same volume of distortion as my clean sound. it's kind of annoying,


It's enough that I have to adjust the input level on my Space echo(last in the chain)


Any idears
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:46:36 am by Toxophilite »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 08:09:55 am »
Sure, get a boost pedal and only use it to maintain unity volume.  On for the high output and off for low.


Offline Toxophilite

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 10:48:37 am »
That could be any idea, though I shy away from adding extra pedals to a nice and compact live DIY pedal board.
I wonder if that would work as I'm already sending a higher level signal into pedals already. I'll try it with the EQ pedal which I'm essentially using as a clean boost for solos anyway.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 11:40:44 am »
You could simply check it with a buffer to determine if you have an impedance issue.  Simply a Boss pedal on shoud do it.


I have noticed what you are referring to when using lower output pups.  They seemed to distort more, but to me they do anyway unless I were pushing a high gain amp with EMG's.  I have never owned either, but have played them togehter.


My 335 PUPS are the Classic 57's and have a hotter output than my Gretsch 6120 with TV jones.  Since there is more output on the 335, it is louder and cleaner.  Since the signal is hotter I always just considered it provided more headroom and I had to crank it more to get the same distortion I would get at a lower volume.


This is all things being equal.

Offline Toxophilite

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 12:30:18 pm »
Hmm
I don't try to overdrive my amps with my guitars
I would think high output pickups would overdrive your preamp (as tehy hit it harder)while low output ones would likely get your power amp section going as you have to turn it up more.

I have a boss GE-7 Eq pedal in front of all my other pedals so it should be providing the necessary buffering.

I don't know if the low output pickups distort more, it's just that strangely they require less level on either of my distortion/overdrive pedals to achieve a balanced volume with the clean sound.

This seems counter intuitive to me.

i;ve been attempting to research it but no luck so far.





Offline jjasilli

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 02:58:50 pm »
This may be a pedal chain issue.  1) It's unusual to put an EQ pedal first; 2) There may well be an impedance issue.  Lots of overdrive pedals expect input directly from the guitar and don't like the output impedance of a pedal.  Lots of info on the web.  Research pedal positions in general and for your specific pedals in particular. 


Some guys EQ guitar signal into an overdrive pedal, and then EQ it again after OD; but that requires an accommodating OD pedal.  Other guys use elaborate switching loops to accommodate fussy but beloved OD pedals.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:34:17 am by jjasilli »

Offline Toxophilite

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 07:15:58 pm »
Thanks
I generally like to keep it simple
The EQ in this instance is actually just being used as a boost, the EQ is flat and the level is up a bit. I use it for solos or accents. The effect through the distortion is the same regardless of it being on and off, though I will test the pedals by themselves
They're very different different pedals both experiencing the same effect MXR distortion and Boss super overdrive.


I don't have a problem with the function of the overdrives, they've always worked great in their current positions with my 1960s Gretsch hilotron equipped guitars.




It's just the higher gain instruments that seem to need more level.


Offline Toxophilite

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 09:21:55 pm »
I wonder if this isn't as counter intuitive as I thought
Maybe if the instrument itself is inherently louder
It needs more distortion level to match it?

Offline jjasilli

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 08:51:08 am »
The effect through the distortion is the same regardless of it being on and off, though I will test the pedals by themselves
Pedals without TRUE bypass will affect signal & impedance even if they are "OFF".  You really need to do the research, or more clearly state the nature of your pedals.


Meanwhile, it's not clear to me that the guitars are the culprits.  I.e., 3K vs. 9k is only a factor of 3 which may be insignificant for these purposes.  E.g., a device with a 20 Ohm input impedance will not like to look at a source device with an output impedance in the 3k - 9k range. And a device with a 1M input impedance will not like to look at a source device with an output impedance in the 20 - 600 Ohm range.




Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 09:27:21 am »
JJ has a good point I did not consider since I use a switcher and isolate pedals.  There also is a problem with true bypass and if you use any vintage Fuzz pedals.  Pete Cornish writes a lot on the subject and doesn't like true bypass and wants to keep impedance high.  Les Paul was the opposite and actually designed pickups for low impedance to record, but he played live with the same guitar.


Pete writes here; http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_against_true_bypass.html


He states to design your guitar to hit a high impedance load the same as your amp, first.  This maintains the pups and then distribute the signal from there.  The switchers I had made do have a 1 meg input inpedance, but is adjustable if oyu have a active preamp.
To understand what buffered bypass is, we have to first understand what a buffer is.

A buffer is a circuit that changes the impedance of a signal. It is more properly called a "buffer amplifier" since there are lots of buffers in the electronics world, but we can call it a buffer for simplicity. All buffers use some sort of semiconductor - either a transistor or an operational amplifier (aka op amp) - and they require a power source (a battery or a DC power supply).

TIP: if you have a pedal that has no power source, such as a passive volume pedal, it is definitely not buffered.

The signal coming out of your guitar is a high impedance signal. This is another way of saying it is very weak. A buffer lowers the impedance without changing the fundamental character of a signal. There is no net gain; only a change in impedance.

Why do some effects have buffers? Because they work better when given a stronger, low impedance signal. This is especially true of digital effects, like delays and choruses, but most overdrive and distortion pedals also rely on a buffer for good tone. It's like building a bridge out of pine versus building a bridge out of steel girders.

This brings us to buffered bypass. In a buffered bypass effect, the buffer is always on and lowering the impedance even if the effect is off. There are a few good reasons you'd want to build a pedal this way; the main one being to maintain the volume level between the effect being on and the effect being off. Some pedals without a buffered bypass are a lot louder when you turn the effect on.

A buffer also helps your guitar signal make it to the amp if you have a lot of cable to go through. An unbuffered signal will degrade over a long enough distance, causing loss of high frequencies in particular.

Lastly, most buffered bypass pedals use what's called a "logic switching" system to turn the effect on and off. The switching is accomplished with transistors. This eliminates any audible pops or clicks when switching.

The downside to buffered bypass is that some buffers will affect your tone. Some people talk about buffers "dragging down" their tone, or they use the obnoxious "tone suck" term. With buffered bypass, the buffer's negative effects are in play even when the effect is off.

Additionally, some pedals, especially vintage fuzz circuits, actually expect a high impedance signal coming in. If you put a buffered pedal in front of them, they may behave unexpectedly (i.e. they will sound bad).

Examples: any BOSS pedal, the Ibanez Tube Screamer (all versions), DOD, Digitech (except Hardwire).

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2018, 04:40:42 pm »
Toxo

Get one of these. Built in buffer, put it up front. It is fantastic like taking a blanket off the amp with muti pedals and long cable runs.  Buckers and singles have same gain, really nice.  Man I wish this would have been available 40 years ago...  plus you get open strum simultaneous tuning - super fast.

Jim

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 04:42:51 pm by Ritchie200 »

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Offline Toxophilite

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2018, 01:01:22 pm »
The effect through the distortion is the same regardless of it being on and off, though I will test the pedals by themselves
Pedals without TRUE bypass will affect signal & impedance even if they are "OFF".  You really need to do the research, or more clearly state the nature of your pedals.


hi I appreciate your input except I'm not sure how I can 'clearly state the nature " of my pedals any better than stating the brand ,pedal name  and model number.
I really have only ever had ONE issue with pedals in the last 30 years of playing and this is it. I researched about it. I've even owned a true bypass setup etc. Other than running my space echo stereo, I like to keep things relatively simple.

Anyway I appreciate all the insights and ideas (Thanks Ritchie I will look at that tuner, Does it enable you to turn off the output of the tuner when tuning? I don't have big tuning problems live, but If I have to tune in front of an audience I prefer to do it in silence )

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Offline Ritchie200

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2018, 10:10:54 am »
Yes it does - thanks Ed!  Sorry, I have been away from the forum for a while.  I had also heard that some buffers color the tone and while looking for a tuner saw the reviews and everyone kept commenting on how transparent this one was besides how accurate the tuner was.  Seemed like a no brainer but wow, I was impressed.  I'm up to about a half dozen pedals now (again...) and it really sounds great with all my guitars, it makes a difference.  I hope you don't get it and write back that it sounds horrible with your setup! :cussing:  If it does, it's Ed's fault! :angel

Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2018, 12:07:14 pm »
I recommend only Xotic Boosters.  To me the RC and the EP at the end of each signal chain work great.  I see these as staples on many pro players rigs.

Easy to build and I think I have seen some PCB,s for them.  I actually installed the EP in a guitar for a friend using a 2 sided board.  Changed his Volume pot to a dual pot since he likes the dulling of highs when he rolls back, the booster rolls off too.

The best thing about the RC is it will add a little gain, sort of a bite.  If you rolloff the gain it is clean boost.  The Bass and Treble controls can shift the mids too.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2018, 12:13:29 pm »
I've been researching a lot on buffers the last week due to my new pedalboard ABY set-up. When engaging the ground loop and isolation transformer for dead quiet operation - the B channel with the iso tranny needs a buffer to bring the signal back up and "normal" sounding. I've put a Boss compressor there at this point and it does double duty. Most Boss pedals have built in buffers. They are active while the pedal is off.

Not all buffers are the same. They can be made in a ton of ways with jfet, mosfet, bjt, opamp, etc. and in a number ways for each with various high Z in inputs and normally low Z outputs. Klon & Cornish are a couple of the higher recommended, then there's op-amp based which will not clip or impart any coloring and they can be combined to deliver better capacity/longer runs and higher demanding uses. Another interesting thing is they can be used to give multiple outputs for feeding various equipment all at the same time and/or controlled individually....make loopers, special tuner outs, all kinds of stuff.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2018, 12:15:42 pm »
I recommend only Xotic Boosters.  To me the RC and the EP at the end of each signal chain work great.  I see these as staples on many pro players rigs.
Or try a GGA ProBoost+  :icon_biggrin:
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2018, 12:04:03 pm »
I recommend only Xotic Boosters.  To me the RC and the EP at the end of each signal chain work great.  I see these as staples on many pro players rigs.
Or try a GGA ProBoost+  :icon_biggrin:
These things are really just a a legend.  I saw a picture of a box that said that, but I have never really seen one.  I think you photoshopped it to enhance desire and increase demand before oyu designed and built it.


Xotic boosters are the best, so until I find a better one, this make sthem the best.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 02:29:56 pm »
I recommend only Xotic Boosters.  To me the RC and the EP at the end of each signal chain work great.  I see these as staples on many pro players rigs.
Or try a GGA ProBoost+  :icon_biggrin:
These things are really just a a legend.  I saw a picture of a box that said that, but I have never really seen one.  I think you photoshopped it to enhance desire and increase demand before oyu designed and built it.


Xotic boosters are the best, so until I find a better one, this make sthem the best.

I had that coming didn't I? Haha! You can't blame me for trying the highly secretive marketing ploy a la Mr A Dumble can you?  :laugh:

They actually are being made I assure you...see?!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 02:32:08 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline Ritchie200

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2018, 08:27:38 pm »
I hear they have a secret military grade pnpnpnFETMOSSlogicswitcherlatchableunobtaniumwarpboostercryogeniccrystaline section that powers it's operation.  I also heard that it has not one, not two, but THREE layers of JB Weld covering up the secret circuitry.  These layers are specifically formed to project the signal in an accelerated forward motion across the booster to allow special frequencies to pinpoint specific areas of your tubes - proprietary parts of your tubes. These are areas that normal signals are not allowed to go to.  You need special access that only this pedal can provide.  Fortunately the military grade special section has a drain that funnels all country picking, tele, and overpriced Surh signals to a special ground that goes through a very specific carbon filtering process to remove these unfortunate anomalies.  Once the process is finished, nothing is left, and the world is a better place.

That's what I heard!
Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline jjasilli

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2018, 09:49:23 pm »
According to the Rocketry Forum ( http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?118721-does-epoxy-conduct-electricity ) JB Weld is a form of epoxy.  And, epoxy is not an electrical conductor (usually). So, this must be true!

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Re: hi and low output pickups and distortion/overdrive pedals
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2018, 08:07:30 am »
I hear they have a secret military grade pnpnpnFETMOSSlogicswitcherlatchableunobtaniumwarpboostercryogeniccrystaline section that powers it's operation.  I also heard that it has not one, not two, but THREE layers of JB Weld covering up the secret circuitry.  These layers are specifically formed to project the signal in an accelerated forward motion across the booster to allow special frequencies to pinpoint specific areas of your tubes - proprietary parts of your tubes. These are areas that normal signals are not allowed to go to.  You need special access that only this pedal can provide.  Fortunately the military grade special section has a drain that funnels all country picking, tele, and overpriced Surh signals to a special ground that goes through a very specific carbon filtering process to remove these unfortunate anomalies.  Once the process is finished, nothing is left, and the world is a better place.

That's what I heard!
Jim

You were supposed to keep all that info classified top secret special access prgram only - HILLARY! Nice going, now you better watch out for Mr. Mueller's special counsel before they come looking for you tying you to the Russian collusion intelligence spying network! I tried to warn you... :w2:
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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