Fender Hot Rod Deville Conversion over to Handwire HELP!!

[USAampsRus]

Hello everyone here from PA,

I'm on a mission. I have a dear friend that's been fighting cancer. Non Hodegkins Lymphoma. His amp was put into the wrong hands for repair. long story short, its a 2011 Fender Hot Rod Deville.
The Chassis,All the Transformers, speakers & Cabinet are in great shape. all the tubes are new. I Would love to build him an all handwired amp while he has to go in for a Steam Cell Transplant.  And as a Surprise Birthday gift.
I have done work on amps like Mods and some repair work.
If i could get help on what to do here to make this work with what i have here.
60 watts is a little loud so im up for any Suggestions.

  Any Help will be Greatly Appreciated.
i Really could use a little Distraction at this time.

Thanks

[92Volts]

Welcome... sorry to hear of your friend's illness, but this is a great thing to do for him!

Get familiar with vacuum tube safety. This page is a good start: http://www.ax84.com/safety.html

Those tubes/transformers are suited to 60W output. Same power as a Deville would be easiest and surest for a beginner to make a working, reliable amp. You could use 6V6s, maybe cathode bias to reduce voltage. I'm not sure I'd recommend worrying about that unless you really need to decrease power.

The guy who hosts this forum sells boards to hold/lay out your circuit.
Eyelet: http://hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=EyeletBoard.htm
Turret: hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=TurretBoard.htm

The AB763 is a vintage Fender design used with many tubes and power levels, but they're similar in principal.

You could do a single-channel (no reverb) AB763 build for simplicity, but maybe buy a dual-channel board. You'll need more space and connections due to power supply differences to accommodate the Deville's different power transformer.

Hopefully somebody will chime in about a HRD conversion and what circuits fit in the chassis, or match its transformers best.

[USAampsRus]

Thank you 92Volts,

Thanks for the kind words.

Im All about Safety
I do Make Sure I Discharge The caps and check for anything holding voltage. Im gonna print out the safety link you sent.
If I could use the transformers i have that would help keep the cost down :)
I was looking at AB763-2 channel|Black Epoxy|Lugs Installed looks like it might fit But maybe the Single Channel might make life easier.

Im hoping i can order everything soon.
thanks again!

[jjasilli]

Not clear -- do you want to build anew into the existing chassis?


Is the birthday impending?  An amp tech's nightmare is to work under a looming hard deadline.  This is a big job. 

[USAampsRus]

 Yes I would like to build new in the existing chassis .
 I'm looking to get as much information on exactly what parts I need to make this happen .

Thanks in advance for all your help.
 
 I am so ready to start working on this amp.  I've taken off of work for a couple months 
To care for him.
 So I figured I would do this project while I'm home.

Thanks

[John]

http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_hotrod_deluxe.pdf


That's the schematic and layout diagram. I agree, this is a huge project. Unless there's something distinctive about the Deville circuit, I'd seriously think about making an amp with lower parts count in that chassis, but that's just me. Regardless, sending positive thoughts for you and your friend!

[MFowler]

I've stripped out a Hot Rod Deluxe and build a new tone board and new cap board.  The hardest part was using the existing standoffs, marking the new board and drilling.  Once done your off and populating the new board to the circuit you have chosen.  You can use clear plastic to mark and make a drill guide if needed.  I would not worry about including reverb, a reverb pedal can always be used.


Mark

[sluckey]

Here's the correct schematic...

     http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_hotrod_deville.pdf

Study it. You'll need to use the same power supply circuit for B+ and bias. Everything else can be replaced by your favorite circuit that only uses three little tubes (or less). You could make a killer AB763 Lite...single channel with/without tremolo and no reverb.

[jjasilli]

Pots, sw's, tube sockets & jacks can be chassis mounted.  The holes are already there.  You'll need to add screw or rivet holes for tube sockets,


The problems with relays are space & the possibility of induced noise, which boils down to a space or shielding issue. 


Components on handwired terminal strips, eyelet or turret boards will take up much more space than on the existing PC boards.  You need to account for that in advance.


What I would do:  make cardboard cutouts of the existing PC boards.  Figure how to layout rows of terminal strips, eyelets or turrets to accommodate the circuits of the amp you choose to build.  Maybe use a layout program.  That's a time-eating learning curve if your not already facile with that.

Then cut out permanent garolite boards; add the terminal strips, eyelets or turrets; and populate.


You can add tube reverb; or keep it SS to save space.
 
Caveat: the more complex you make the amp, the more likely it is to have vexing and hard to trace issues; and the less likely it is to be noise free.  Relatively speaking, I think few of these conversions have been done.  IOW, this might be considered a research & development project, which is inconsistent with the goal of a pleasant & timely birthday gift.  It just might not work right the first try.  That's nobody's fault, but something to keep in mind.

EDIT:  This gives me the idea to build a Blues Jr. into it (preamp section).  Doug already has a board & layout for that.  If issues arise it will be easier to get help.

[92Volts]

The problems with relays are space & the possibility of induced noise, which boils down to a space or shielding issue. 

True. Also, the Deville's brown wires (medium voltage) are convenient for bias. As sluckey suggests, the section producing -55v for "C-" could be directly reused. Not so convenient for running relays... the +/-16V regulator is less elegant and I'm not sure how much current it can supply.

Without relays, you may not want remotely-switched channels. Running audio to a pedal and back is asking for noise. But you can switch reverb and vibrato with pedals, exactly as it's done in the AB763 circuit. So you can certainly add features including remote (pedal) control to the amp without worrying about relays.

[sluckey]

I don't think the OP is interested in any relays. So far all he has mentioned is Hoffman's AB763.

[USAampsRus]

Guys Thanks so much for the replies,

I think not using a relay is a good call. wanna make this Noise free and as simple as possible.
And i think what was mentioned about making an amp with lower parts count in that chassis is a great call.

The idea to build a Blues Jr. into it (preamp section) sounds like a good idea. 

He has a reverb pedal and never used the one that the deville had because it hasn't worked in years.

So i can use the existing transformers that the deville came with? or do you think i should scratch that idea?

im gonna start taking the guts out today carefully and take measurements of the Chassis.

Thanks so much everyone for the help.

And at the end of this project if  this Doesn't work out at least it was a Distraction for me.

Anthony

[John]

Sorry for the incorrect schem, and also I totally missed the AB763 comment you made. Yeah, something like that would be way easier, or like Sluckey says a Lite version.

[mresistor]

This guy converts them to a 5E5A I'm sure you could do a Deville too..   and the build looks nice and tidy and easy to do..   he makes a new faceplate too..
check out his process pages
http://www.tjadamowicz.com/amps/convert.html

[sluckey]

I highly recommend you do some research before you start ripping the amp apart. Study the schematic. Study the schematic of the amp you think you may want to build. If you can't read and understand a schematic you will be severely handicapped. Not saying you can't still do it, but saying it will be considerably more difficult. You will likely need to adapt the FWB power supply to the amp you decide to build. You can use the same transformers and choke if you build a 2x6L6 amp. Most everything other than the transformers and chassis will need to be replaced. That means jacks, pots, tube sockets, circuit boards, etc.

[jjasilli]

Ditto to sluckey


mresistor: great reference (I'm also looking at a gut job to my HRD).  Really shows the space / layout aspects.

[USAampsRus]

Wow thanks guys.
I'm back home.  Been at the docs with him all morning.
I haven't done anything with the amp yet been crazy busy.
I'm reading the posts here and seeing some good knowledge and info here.
Again I'm very grateful to have you guys help me out here  And letting me know What I'm up against.
I don't necessarily have to keep the factory chassis if you guys recommend something else that will fit in the cabinet.   I am definitely down for some suggestions. I do know I wanna use a turret board. I used to do some wiring on ambulances about 20 years ago along with welding and cabinetry.
I can read schematics but not at advanced levels.  I've been looking over the schematics that you guys had sent my way and I have done a great deal of research on the web and YouTube videos.  Came across this video and it really got my interest!

 I would like to use the same transformers and choke and go with the 6L6 Build.

I'll keep checking back.

Thanks again

 Anthony


 

[USAampsRus]

mresistor
That link you sent definitely something I'm interested in also.

 
http://www.tjadamowicz.com/amps/convert.html 

Awesome work guys!  Getting so excited I can't wait to get my hands on this and start working.

 Anthony

[USAampsRus]

I've stripped out a Hot Rod Deluxe and build a new tone board and new cap board.  The hardest part was using the existing standoffs, marking the new board and drilling.  Once done your off and populating the new board to the circuit you have chosen.  You can use clear plastic to mark and make a drill guide if needed.  I would not worry about including reverb, a reverb pedal can always be used.


Mark

Awesome thank you! Still learning  how to navigate the forms. I appreciate your input!

[USAampsRus]

Well i'm getting ready to tear down this amp.

no turning back now!

[John]

Take pictures!

[tubenit]

Definitely take LOTS of clear detailed pictures before taking anything apart, at every significant stage of the new build (layout board, heater wiring etc.....),  and when you have the finished build. This may prove to be a tremendous help IF you need some trouble shooting.


Since you are somewhat new at amp building,  I would suggest consider going cathode biased instead of fixed bias. When you change tubes you won't need to rebias.  Maybe 250R -330R 10watt resistor with 60uf to 100uf 50v cathode cap.  Just my 2 cents worth.  You'd have a little less wattage then fixed biased which might be preferred if playing mostly at home?


With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

The other thing I'd recommend is posting your working schematic on this thread so we can help you when needed. And preferably your layout.


Sluckey has a website with incredibly well done schematics you can consider using.  And we have an entire Library of editable SCH schematics & layouts that you can use IF you download the free ExpressSCH program that allows editing and drawing.


BEFORE you tear stuff apart & before you order parts I'd recommend posting your schematic here and ask for feedback to make sure your on a "do-able" and realistic project.


I've seen too many new builders get stuck and then post word descriptors (often inaccurately) when asking for help instead of posting a schematic for us to visually look at.


With respect, Tubenit

[USAampsRus]

Take pictures!

 I have definitely taken pictures before and after.But I'm having a problem uploading them to the site and I feel like such an idiot.  Keep saying your file size is too large and I have decreased the file size but for some reason it's not excepting it.

 Anthony

[labb]

Not sure how far into this you are or if you have decided what to build. If you have not decided on a circuit take a look at sluckey's AB763 lite. Add a master volume control.  It is pretty straight forward build and and a heck of an amp. Steve may have some sound clips.

[USAampsRus]

Not sure how far into this you are or if you have decided what to build. If you have not decided on a circuit take a look at sluckey's AB763 lite. Add a master volume control.  It is pretty straight forward build and and a heck of an amp. Steve may have some sound clips.

 So far I have just been researching on what build to go with .  I have carefully  disassembled the amp.
I'm definitely interested in sluckey's AB763 Lite. Sounds like the way to go.

Thanks again for the input.

Anthony.
 

[tubenit]

There isn't a need to load pics for us.  Hang on to them for yourself. Just post pics IF you run into a glitch.


Sluckey's schematics and layouts are easily among the best!  So those guides would already be proven circuits & the work is done for you.   


With respect,  Tubenit

[USAampsRus]

There isn't a need to load pics for us.  Hang on to them for yourself. Just post pics IF you run into a glitch.


Sluckey's schematics and layouts are easily among the best!  So those guides would already be proven circuits & the work is done for you.   


With respect,  Tubenit

where do i go to find Sluckey website & schematics that you mentioned? Definitely interested!

Thx
Anthony

[tubenit]

http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AB763_Deluxe_Lite.pdf



OR


http://sluckeyamps.com/6v6plexi/6v6plexi.pdf

[USAampsRus]

http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AB763_Deluxe_Lite.pdf

So Awesome thank you. .
Can I use the  existing transformers from the hot Rod Deville and -6L6 tubes?
Sorry for so may questions ..

Thanks

[tubenit]

I would use your chassis, tubes and transformers.


Study Sluckey's schematic and layout paying attention to the preamp and LTPI (phase invertor) and power amp.


On your original Fender schematic study the power transformer, fixed bias and B+ power rail.


The idea is to follow Sluckey's layout (preamp, LTPI & POWER AMP)  while using the Fender's trannies, B+ rail and fixed bias.


Make a schematic (try Window's PAINT) using a "cut & paste" to draw up your new schematic and then post it here for feedback.

Once you post it, we can help with guesstimated values for dropping resistors on the B+ rail. The idea is to keep your 6L6 voltages original to fender schematic on the plates and screens BUT have voltages similar to Sluckeys amp on the LTPI and preamp. 


NOTE:  The 6L6 plates & screens on the DeVille have higher voltage then on Sluckey's "Lite"
power tube plates.


You can get help on bias circuit from forum (IF it needs tweaking) ..... OR go cathode biased (which is what I would personally do simply because its a preference for me).


Hope that helps.  With respect Tubenit

[sluckey]

My Deluxe Lite is based on a Deluxe Reverb. R32 needs to be changed to a 1K@3W and R33 needs to be changed to 4.7K@3W. R15 will need to be 100Ω half watt if you plan to use 2Ω or 4Ω speakers.

[USAampsRus]

thanks so much for the info,
i am going to print out Sluckey's schematic and layout .

Time to start Studying.
 

[MFowler]

Such good advice and help from forum members, very inspiring to read.  You guys Rock!


Mark

[sluckey]

If your friend likes the Marshall sound you may consider my Plexi 6V6 (using 6L6s). It's a simple amp that would easily fit that chassis. You may even be able to run EL34s if the PT can handle an extra 1.2 amps of filament current.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/6v6plexi/6v6plexi.pdf

[USAampsRus]

If your friend likes the Marshall sound you may consider my Plexi 6V6 (using 6L6s). It's a simple amp that would easily fit that chassis. You may even be able to run EL34s if the PT can handle an extra 1.2 amps of filament current.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/6v6plexi/6v6plexi.pdf

Funny that you mentioned that. As of matter of fact he does..
I was looking at that that build.  I’m thinking that’s probably the way to go .   

I’ve been reviewing the info that’s been  provided and doing a lot of research learning how to the schematics.
You  guys have been extremely helpful and can’t thank you enough.
 I think I found the parts list for that bill build  I’m not 100% certain .

Anthony

[tubenit]

Here is an idea to consider.  Having said that,  follow Sluckey's advice on this and NOT mine.  Steve is far more knowledgeable then I am.

This is how I would consider approaching the conversion.  Note the things that are different from original schematics.  Please look over this carefully.  I think you can still use Sluckey's layout with this idea. 

On Sluckey's Plexi

1)  changed to cathode biased instead of fixed biased

2)  changed grid resistors from 1.5k to 5.6k  (for 6L6 grids)

On  original Fender  DeVille schematic

1)  did NOT use fixed biased circuit because of using  cathode biased instead of fixed biased

2)  Suggested different dropping resistor  between  node  B & node C     (changed it from 6.8k original to 33k/3w)
     The reason for this was to get node C from 413 v on LTPI plates closer to 270v on LTPI plates   (I think it will end up in the 300+ range)

3)  Instead of original 10k resistor on DeVille,  maybe try a 22k/2w?     This is to try to get node D from original 364v to closer to 232v

4)  Adding a node E with a dropping resistor of 10k/2w between node D and node E.  Trying to get node E headed towards 217v range

I would be shooting for something like:

Node A =  471v like on Deville      Node B = 468v like on Deville   Node C = 300+?      Node D= as close as reasonable to 232v
Node E =  as close as reasonable to 217v

Hopefully, Sluckey will weigh in on this.  Again, follow his lead on dropping resistors and everything else.  You certainly do NOT have to have a cathode biased amp.   I think it might make the conversion an easier project to do so, but maybe not?

With respect, Tubenit

EDIT:[/color]   I've added an ExpressSCH editable schematic & the same schematic in GIF format.  In the schematic I just added, I changed two more things which are simply a personal preference and not necessarily "better".   I don't care for the 47p "snubbing cap" as I think it muffles the tone, so I changed to a 220p "enhance cap" across the 82k LTPI entrance resistor.  The other thing was simply to add a passive effects loop for reverb or delay pedals.

I also have an editable ExpressSCH layout for this schematic that uses paralleled turrets or eyelets. NOT an improvement on Sluckey's great layout, just different. 

[USAampsRus]

Awesome thank you!

[tubenit]

Be sure to wait for Sluckey's advice on this.  Especially before ordering parts.  Again, he is far more knowledgeable then I am on this.  He may have different thoughts on the B+ dropping resistors ........... or he may advise you to use fixed instead of cathode bias.  Follow his lead on it.

Just be sure to note the changes on his layout IF you work with this schematic.  Not many of them to make and (if I am correct?) then you can easily use his layout & layout board .

With respect, Tubenit

[USAampsRus]

Will do!


Thx

[USAampsRus]

Here is an idea to consider.  Having said that,  follow Sluckey's advice on this and NOT mine.  Steve is far more knowledgeable then I am.

This is how I would consider approaching the conversion.  Note the things that are different from original schematics.  Please look over this carefully.  I think you can still use Sluckey's layout with this idea. 

On Sluckey's Plexi

1)  changed to cathode biased instead of fixed biased

2)  changed grid resistors from 1.5k to 5.6k  (for 6L6 grids)

On  original Fender  DeVille schematic

1)  did NOT use fixed biased circuit because of using  cathode biased instead of fixed biased

2)  Suggested different dropping resistor  between  node  B & node C     (changed it from 6.8k original to 33k/3w)
     The reason for this was to get node C from 413 v on LTPI plates closer to 270v on LTPI plates   (I think it will end up in the 300+ range)

3)  Instead of original 10k resistor on DeVille,  maybe try a 22k/2w?     This is to try to get node D from original 364v to closer to 232v

4)  Adding a node E with a dropping resistor of 10k/2w between node D and node E.  Trying to get node E headed towards 217v range

I would be shooting for something like:

Node A =  471v like on Deville      Node B = 468v like on Deville   Node C = 300+?      Node D= as close as reasonable to 232v
Node E =  as close as reasonable to 217v

Hopefully, Sluckey will weigh in on this.  Again, follow his lead on dropping resistors and everything else.  You certainly do NOT have to have a cathode biased amp.   I think it might make the conversion an easier project to do so, but maybe not?

With respect, Tubenit

EDIT:[/color]   I've added an ExpressSCH editable schematic & the same schematic in GIF format.  In the schematic I just added, I changed two more things which are simply a personal preference and not necessarily "better".   I don't care for the 47p "snubbing cap" as I think it muffles the tone, so I changed to a 220p "enhance cap" across the 82k LTPI entrance resistor.  The other thing was simply to add a passive effects loop for reverb or delay pedals.

I also have an editable ExpressSCH layout for this schematic that uses paralleled turrets or eyelets. NOT an improvement on Sluckey's great layout, just different.

WOW,Thx so much. The passive Effects loop is a great suggestion. will this have a buffer also?

[tubenit]

Passive effects loop does NOT have a buffer per say ..................

However,  since it follows the master volume which follows the tone stack which follows the cathode follower ................. I think you will find it useful still.

I've run Carbon Copy delay,  Boss digital delay,  Moen Pretty Dolly delay and Digitech Reverb thru passive delays and found they worked just fine for me.

Since it just involves two jacks, it's only a $10 mod and easy to do.

with respect,  Tubenit

[tubenit]

I want you to keep in mind that Sluckey's  Plexi 6V6 is a proven design.  Mark Huss's Plexi 6V6 is a proven design.  Hoffman's Plexi 6V6 & Plexi 50w are proven designs.

However, none of those designs are reusing a Fender DeVille power trannie, output trannie and/or bias circuit.  So what I did for you was to try and marry what is proven in those proven designs to the Fender DeVille PT, OT and B+ rail.

My schematic is NOT a proven design.  I have not built it.  I posted it for you to look at and for others to make comments, corrections and edits around.  In other words,  I posted it as a focal point of discussion and maybe a catalyst to help you get some direction and traction on the build.

It's how I would approach it and it reflects some personal preferences that are not necessarily better but simply different then how others would approach it. IF I built this,  I am quite confident that I could trouble shoot it if it didn't work right ......... OR mod it to sound more like I want IF it didn't to begin with.  You may not have that same skill set?  And IF that is the case, then try to use proven designs or ask for help from the guys that really know ALOT about these builds and designs.

I hope you will post whatever questions, concerns you have it and seek input from guys on the forum who know more then I do.

with respect, Tubenit

[66Strat]

Lots of good advice here. I would definitely stick with 6L6 tubes as you already have suitable power and output transformers. I would opt for either a 6L6 Plexi or a 5f6A Bassman. Doug has the boards for either in his store. The B+ is a little on the high side for my tastes. But it's nothing that a 200 ohm or so sag resistor wouldn't cure.

[tubenit]

I would opt for either a 6L6 Plexi or a 5f6A Bassman. Doug has the boards for either in his store.

Either of those would be good options, IMO.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Something I am NOT understanding about the original power transformer for the Blues DeVille  (Fender part # 041752)

I don't recognize the type of solid state rectification being used?   On the specs for the replacement trannie for the Blues DeVille, it lists FWB which I would have thought is a full wave bridge rectifier?   However, I don't see that the PT has a center tap that is grounded?

Can someone explain to me what is actually going on with the rectification, please?   

With respect, Tubenit

[66Strat]

It's a bridge rectifier. You have an error in your schematic.

[tubenit]

It's a bridge rectifier. You have an error in your schematic

Ah OK,  finally caught the error and corrected it.  I will say I am NOT familiar with this type of bridge rectifier & I'm not recognizing it to be like any of the solid state rectifiers that Doug illustrates in his Library of Information.

And I don't see a separate ground for negative end of the rectifier ?   It appears it's using one of the high voltage wires as a ground?

With respect, Tubenit

[John]

In your schematic, you just made a drawing error: there's no connection from the neg. end of your diodes to the filter cap grounds.

[John]

The original is hard to see.