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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135  (Read 20938 times)

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Offline 2deaf

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2018, 12:07:41 pm »
That confirms that my hunch was wrong.  He has replaced the 2.2K resistor with a 1.5K.  I can't make out what the current-limiting resistor is on the diode board, but it is a new one.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2018, 12:09:00 pm »
I think that only one person fell in the rabbit hole. Some others may have reached in to pull him out.  :wink:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Diverted

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2018, 12:13:29 pm »
New voltages.

I need to get some better matching tubes. Though current's pretty close on either side of the OPT, the imbalance in each of the pairs probably is forcing me to run this too cold overall, since I'm biasing for the strongest tube. Probably needs to come down a little bit overall (38 too high?) but if I come down the weaker tubes are going to be run super cold.
Anyway, the bias pot goes from about -40 to about -61vdc.

With grids seeing -58.4vdc, I'm getting:

Pair one: 30.7&36.1 for current, for a total of 66.8
Pair two: 38.4&27.1 for current, for a total of 65.5


Offline Diverted

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2018, 12:17:57 pm »
I can't make out what the current-limiting resistor is on the diode board, but it is a new one.

That resistor at the bias diode is 1K.
Thanks!

Offline sluckey

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2018, 12:52:43 pm »
Quote
Anyway, the bias pot goes from about -40 to about -61vdc.
That's a perfect range for 6L6s. Whoever did this conversion knew what they were doing.

So, what were the plate voltages for those last current readings?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Diverted

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2018, 02:01:55 pm »
Sorry, got sidetracked with work right in the middle of message. Hit "post" and forgot about plate voltage.

Anyway, plate on first pair is 523vdc. Second pair is 521.

Looks like:
53.5 percent max dissipation on tube 1.
62.9 percent max dissipation on tube 2.
67 percent max dissipation on tube 3.
47.2 percent max dissipation on tube 4.

Looks like I should be getting rid of tubes 1 and 4 and going with two a little stronger.

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2018, 04:58:51 pm »
I think that only one person fell in the rabbit hole. Some others may have reached in to pull him out.  :wink:


Not to beat a dead horse, but 2deaf, 92volts & I all went off in different directions.  Nevertheless this has been a good thread.

Offline 66Strat

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2018, 05:41:47 pm »
Thanks! I don't know the max negative voltage; didn't dial it all the way over. But I will post it later.
As for the doghouse, here you go. Looks like he/she did a good job last time. Thanks!

Ted

I don't see any balancing resistors parallel with the series connected 220 uf capacitors.
Regards,
JT

Offline sluckey

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2018, 07:14:49 pm »
I don't see any balancing resistors parallel with the series connected 220 uf capacitors.
They are not really needed since the PT center tap is connected to the junction of the two caps. But I "think" they are located just to the left of the PT.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 66Strat

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2018, 07:31:28 pm »
OK, I see them now. I was looking on the dog house board. Thanks.
Regards,
JT

Offline Diverted

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2018, 08:01:15 pm »
Yep, two 100Ks on a terminal strip to the left of the power transformer.

Offline pdf64

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2018, 08:27:56 am »
Leo Fender was very good at producing quality amps. Like most other legends, he didn't adhere too closely to the tube manufacturers' book value tube parameters. He made a gazillion PP 6L6 amps using 220K grid resistors. He also abused the max limits on voltages. Those amps are still alive today and are one of the most cloned amps ever. 220K, you bet I'm gonna use them, just like Leo did. Who cares that the RCA RC-30 Tube Manual says 100K max.  :icon_biggrin:
Bear in mind the rather high HT on these amps; some of the brown series amps had HTs above 500V, notice how that didn't last for long, with the HTs getting reined back to compliant levels with the blackface series.
The grid leak limit is there to prevent grid current creating a significant grid voltage. Grid current, especially positive, tends to increase with gassy tubes, but also increases with overall temperature; hence if the plates are dissipating heavily, (positive) grid current can increase, and if the grid leak value is excessive, then the tube's operating point will get hotter and there's the risk that things can spiral out of control, as the hotter operating point causes yet more plate dissipation, and the tubes redplate. See http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/084/k/KT88_GEC.pdf how there's a balance between max dissipation and max grid leak, ie if the design can cap dissipation at a lower value, then the grid leak limit can be increased.
And similarly, self regulating effect of cathode bias allows higher grid leak values.
Hence most guitar amps 'get away' with 220k grid leaks, due to the nature of the application not tending to result in max dissipation for extended, continuous time periods, eg things get chance to cool down between notes etc.
But the 135W TR is not most amps, the HT as noted is rather high. Even with the slightly higher p-p impedance these have, and the g2 taps further mitigating stress, these amps seem to have been designed around the Sylvania STR387, which were a super tough 6L6 variant reputedly with enhanced voltage, dissipation and vibration capability.
The higher HT will likely increase the max plate dissipation that the 6L6 are subjected to, and thereby the grid current may well be higher than with a regular TR AB763.
So I suspect that regular / current production 6L6GC would have a hard time in the stock circuit, hence I don't think that 220k grid leaks are a good idea here. The SF circuit seems to have been done by competent engineers, as the range evolved, mitigation for both blocking distortion and tube life were put in place, and it seems a retrograde move to revise all component values to the AB763 equivalents without carefully thinking everything through.
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Offline jjasilli

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2018, 10:08:00 am »
@pdf64:  Very informative!


Temporary thread hijack:  I would like to improve tube lifetime in the attached schematic.  Based on the GEC KT88 sheet I now plan to: i) with the amp in its cabinet take the tube temperature with an infrared thermometer & install a fan if needed so as not to exceed 250 deg centigrade; ii) replace R21 (off the HT secondary) with a thermistor, or a thermistor + R in series, that add up to the 10 Ohm spec of R21.  I am a happy camper, thanks!

Offline pdf64

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2018, 11:20:18 am »
That sounds a good idea; in case of tube shorts, fuses for the 2 HT windings would be nice too  :icon_biggrin:
It's handy to have a 125V primary available, perhaps they could see the future :think1:
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Offline jjasilli

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Re: Biasing a Fender Twin Reverb ultralinear 135
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2018, 11:50:14 am »
It's handy to have a 125V primary available, perhaps they could see the future
 :l2:


in case of tube shorts, fuses for the 2 HT windings would be nice too 
Prescient!  It already happened.  Power tube went short and must have been like that for hours, before I noticed the smell from another room.  PT was scalding hot and smelled real bad (but not a burnt or smokey smell).  Took overnight to be cool enough to touch.   Amazingly, still works fine!


My bad.  Stock has 10 Ohm bias sense resistors which also serve as HT "fuses".  I cleverly replaced those with 1 Ohm 3W bias sense resistors which dutifully survived the short circuit condition  (maybe I should recheck their 1% 1 Ohm spec!).  I then installed fuses between cathode > ground.  Didn't think to fuse the screen supply.  Good idea!   BTW:  I have 3 of these servicing the front 3 channels of my home theater system.

 


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