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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo  (Read 4759 times)

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Offline TurboGuitarMelton

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Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« on: May 31, 2019, 06:21:17 pm »
Hey,


I just built a deluxe micro 5e3. 12ax7 into parrallel 12at7 output stage.


Im having a strange oscillation issue. When I max out both the master volume and the preamp volume the amp slowly begins to oscillate just like a tremolo would.


It sounds just like a tremolo! So weird. Anyone else had this issue? Any ways to fix it? I felt like I was pretty close to the orignal layout. I used terminal strips.


I tried chopsticking the wires a bit but there was no change. Here is a snapshot of the build.

Offline Tony Bones

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 06:40:59 pm »
Why no schematic?

Anyway, I would first suspect the filter cap for the preamp stages. Try clipping another cap in parallel with that one.

Offline TurboGuitarMelton

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 07:07:44 pm »
Here you go! This is the schematic I used. I Unfortunately dont have another electrolytic on hand to try that. :/ But, the schematic calls for only 2 caps. Same values as mine.


Only a few changes -


I ditched the cathode bypass cap for the second triode of the 12ax7. Had WAYY too much gain before.


Rebiased hotter for 12at7. 300 ohm cathode resistor. Around 13ma for both triodes.


Added typical fender hi low jacks


Full wave bridge rectifier because my PT has no center taps.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:13:15 pm by TurboGuitarMelton »

Offline Tony Bones

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2019, 08:11:06 pm »
Well, here's my reasoning: the fact that the oscillation happens only when the vol and master are maxed tells me that the feedback is from the output stage to the input stage. The fact that the oscillation frequency is slow means that the path is probably through the PS. The PS caps and dropping resistor are essentially a low pass filter, so that path only supports low frequency oscillations. It's not necessarily the only low frequency path, but other paths are usually higher frequency. That's why I suggested looking at the PS filter.

But, the fact is the entire loop needs to support the oscillation frequency, not just the feedback path but also the usual signal path forward through the amp too. Now, the PS caps and dropping resistor make a low pass filter while the coupling caps and vol controls make a high pass filter. There needs to be some overlap in the filter where oscillations can happen.

Making the PS caps bigger lowers the corner frequency of the low pass filter thus reducing the overlap. Alternatively, making the coupling caps smaller raises the corner frequency of the high pass filters, also reducing the overlap.

Looking at your schematic, you have 0.1uF coupling caps. Those are relatively huge for the application. Those coupling caps with the 1M pots puts the cutoff frequency at 1.6Hz, which is probably lower than the oscillation frequency. Try replacing both caps with something much smaller, like 0.02uF. That might help.

Having said all of that, it still surprises me that 33uF and 22K in the PS dosn't work well enough, even with the big coupling caps. Which makes me wonder if that 33uF cap might be pooty.

Offline shooter

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2019, 08:22:28 am »
Quote
It sounds just like a tremolo! So weird
:icon_biggrin:
I get it on ~1/4 of my builds, it's a parasitic osc, usually ~~3-8hz, typically "in the grass" so when you're scopin around easy to miss.
Don't know if I've ever "fixed" it, I can get it to go away with bigger PS caps, sometimes tweaking the R's also.  Bigger bypass cap on the PA tubes, splitting the PA tubes cathode circuit.
 
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2019, 11:55:13 am »
Cant really see on this little laptop screen and my ancient eyes....  What is your grounding method?

Jim

My religion? I'm a Cathode Follower!
Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline silverfox

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2019, 06:17:24 pm »
The volume and gain controls look like an RC oscillator as it is. Is there another way to wire those controls?


silverfox.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2019, 07:17:27 pm »
What voltages do you measure on the two filter caps and ALL pins of the tubes?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline silverfox

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 02:13:07 am »


Offline jjasilliLevel 5
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Re: Balancing Ground And Mystery Problems
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2019, 03:59:45 pm ».

. . . . .

I do agree that the PS affects tone. . . .


As shooter says, the PS can have low frequency oscillations below the audible range.  This can cause intermodulation distortion in the audio range; maybe even "bloom" or "warble"  -- a tremolo-like effect.



silverfox.

Offline TurboGuitarMelton

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 10:06:11 pm »
Measured all pins: here is what I have


V1


1 189V
2 0V
3 1.425V
4 3.3V AC
5 3.3V AC
6 191.5V
7 0V
8 1.438V
9 3.3V AC



V2


1/6 313.2V
2 0V
3/8 3.73V
4 3.3V AC
5 3.3V AC
7 0V
9 3.3V AC


B+ 326.3V
B+1 283.2V


I bought some .02 caps and they are on the way. Once I change them Ill let you guys know what happens.


I also might try to split the power tube cathodes


Ritchie: Grounding method is all over the place... I used terminal strips so most of the grounding is on these points.










Offline TurboGuitarMelton

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2019, 02:14:04 pm »
The .02 caps fixed the ossilation issue! Thanks guys! Guess the .1 caps were a little overkill. I think the idea was that it was supposed to be a 5e3 circuit with a simple output stage.
Also, I notice the tone knob hardly does anything and seems to really cut down on volume/gain. Does this also happen on a 5e3 or should I check that part of the circuit out too?

Offline shooter

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Re: Oscillation Issue Sounds like a tremolo
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2019, 02:24:47 pm »
Quote
Does this also happen on a 5e3
I use the cut type alot, you gotta "tune it" to your liking though and I find it still winds up similar to a 3 position switch, mostly Bass, mostly treble, everything else.  your guitar tone knobe becomes the "primary" control
Went Class C for efficiency

 


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