Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 12:36:55 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.  (Read 7261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« on: December 21, 2019, 07:50:30 pm »
Picked up a free organ today.  It says "Thomas Transistor" on the front and I was hesitant to take it thinking it wouldn't have a tube amp, but I hated to disappoint the lady who really needed someone to haul it off so I took it.  Opened it up at home and surprise!  a very nicely laid out tube power amp.   Tube compliment is 5Y3, 12AX7, 12AT7, 12AU7, 6973.  Has 2-12" speakers.

All of the tone generators are transistorized and appear to have a bunch of Thomas/VOX  transistors.  (Germanium?)

They turned it on and it just has a loud hum.  Will go to work checking things out.  This is the first organ I have played around with that has a "percussion" feature so I might play around with that a little.

Amp looks identical to this one.  https://reverb.com/item/3294741-thomas-6973-tube-chassis-boutique-guitar-amp-project-tone-cab

Trying to hunt down schematic.  More pics will be up as time allows.


Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2019, 08:52:42 pm »
That amp is a perfect candidate for a Supro S-6424 conversion.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/Supro_S-6424.pdf
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2019, 07:36:45 am »
Thanks for the suggestion Sluckey.  I can see how it lends itself to that.  I'm thinking I might want to do something that includes a reverb.  Could I replace use the third tube that is the Trem section for reverb instead and delete the trem?  What do I need to find out in order to know what reverb tank would work best with it?

Pulled it out this AM and here is what my actual unit looks like after a quick blowing off with the air compressor.  Found some "issues".

I have no idea what the wire to nowhere is.  Looks like someone did it intentionally but makes no sense to me.

Looks like a cap was intentionally cut loose or broke loose.  Will investigate further.

Other than that and some obvious age, it looks to be in pretty good condition and relatively clean.

 

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2019, 07:39:33 am »
here's the mystery wire and disconnected cap

Offline NewYorker

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2019, 05:46:46 am »
Not much help, but it looks like the unit for sale on Reverb has the same yellow "wire to nowhere".

Ed

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2019, 07:11:17 am »
Wow, I see that now.  Looks like that must have been a factory feature? :icon_biggrin: I traced it back to pin 7 on the output tubes.  Doesn't seem to make sense to me but I guess I don't have to figure out where the loose end went if that was factory.

I am trying to put together a schematic before I do anything drastic.  No luck finding one on a google search.

I think I have solved the puzzle of the hanging cap end.  Looks like someone replaced it with a cement cap and just clipped the lead on the old cap.  There is a .02 cement cap soldered in in place of the original .022 micamold cap and the solder job does not look factory.

Offline NewYorker

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2019, 09:05:07 am »
Absent a schematic, I'm guessing in the dark here.  Maybe it has to do with setting the bias, i.e. reading the voltage on the output tube cathodes and determining idle current from that reading.

Again, just guessing.  But it apparently is a "feature", albeit not a safe feature.

Ed

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2019, 09:04:16 pm »
That amp is a perfect candidate for a Supro S-6424 conversion.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/Supro_S-6424.pdf

Sluckey,

After some poking about and listening to clips of the Supro s-6424, I think I will pursue your idea of converting to it.  I have tried to make an as is schematic but between the improvised repairs/modification I see, and all of the off chassis switches, & circuits, I am seeing less value in completing it as I go.  Is there any particular measurements that I should try to take before I begin to dismantle the original chassis?  I have measured the voltages at pins 4 & 6 on the rectifier and I have 382V when powered up with 121VAC from the wall.  Assuming it was a 380-0-380 PT.  There is another secondary winding in addition to the 380V, 5V and 6.3V that powered something off chassis or was perhaps a bias tap?  I am seeing some diodes connecting it to one of the can caps.  Haven't checked voltage on that one yet. Will get to it tomorrow.

Assuming this is a 380-0-380 PT, I would need to burn off 60V to make it work in your schematic.  Is this a deal breaker?  I have some chokes I could try to drop some voltage?

Chassis measures 4"W X 16"L X 2"H so I think your board layout should fit about right.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2019, 05:55:34 am »
Just on the surface of things it sounds like a 380-0-380 is too high. BUT! Thomas made it work in that amp. You really need to connect a speaker to the amp and carefully power up with all tubes in it. Watch for smoke and listen for bad sounds. Then measure DC voltages for the PS (5Y3 plus all filter caps) and all tube pins for the PI (12AU7) and PA (two 6973s). This will tell us what the real loaded voltages are. Then we'll have a better idea if this is suited for the Supro. The only reason I suggested Supro is because your PT, OT, PS, and PA are designed for each other and use the same components as the Supro.

We really need a schematic for the PI, PA, and PS. Don't worry about the 12AX7 and 12AT7. If you post some high rez gut shots that clearly show the sockets and components we may be able to help with a schematic. This is an important first step. Please don't just rip it apart without doing this step.

The amp seems to use high quality components and has a logical layout, but the chassis will not work with my Supro board. Your chassis layout almost demands using terminal strips and true point to point construction. I suggest this approach if you want to use this chassis even if you decide to build something else. The Thomas power amp is probably already suited for any guitar amp power amp. This means that you can use the Thomas PA as is (maybe slight tweaking) and just build a guitar preamp using the other two 12A?? tubes. Should make a nice guitar amp, even if not a Supro. But we need that schematic!

Or, if the dc voltages seem to be usable, you may want to just rob the iron from the Thomas chassis and put it in a blank chassis. Then you could follow my layout. That's what I did. My iron came from a Hammond AO-43 amp and I used a 17" x 6.5" x 2.5" blank chassis. Here are some pics of my Supro...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/supro/supro.htm


« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 05:58:35 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2019, 08:43:57 am »
Very well.  I will persist with developing an "as is" schematic. I got a pretty good start but got stumped at the caps as the terminal designations are not visible and some stuff looked a bit wonky.

Hi res pics of the guts will be forthcoming. 

Here is the PT as best as I can put it together.

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2019, 08:09:59 pm »
Here is what I have been able to peice together for a schematic today after tracing things out.  There are probably some things that aren't right and I didn't draw in the large caps as I don't know what is what but everything I could clearly see that was on the chassis is drawn.

I tried to get some voltage readings but running into some problems.  I don't know for sure which wires are the speaker connection so the only way to get a speaker connected is to plug it back into the organ.  I plugged the chassis back into the organ and it is making noise, it gets louder with the expression pedal and I can pull a voltage at the rectifier with all tubes in (reads 373 ACV loaded and 435 DCV rectified).  However,  I am not getting good readings at any of the other tubes when it is connected to the organ.  I have red, blue, green and brown coming out of the OT.  I am unsure of the OT wiring.  I know red is attached to the big filter cap and black is ground.  That leaves me with green, blue and brown. Brown and Blue are connected to pin 9 of output tubes. 
Does this mean I ma correct that green and black are my speaker connections?

On the bench, with just the rectifier tube in it, I get the following readings at the pins:

All filament readings are 6.2VAC

V1 Pin 1- 337, Pin 6- 370

V2 Pin 1- 497, Pin 6- 502

V3 Pin 1- 379, Pin 6- 500

V4 Pin 1- 499, Pin 3- -35, Pin 9- 511

V5 Pin 1- 499, Pin 3- -35, Pin 9- 500

While plugged into organ, all caps ran cool, PT ran cool, nothing behaved badly other than the strange noise it was making through the speakers.  Sounded like a key was stuck down.

Pics on the way.





« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 08:13:15 pm by 1blueheron »

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2019, 08:44:56 pm »
Pics

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2019, 08:45:52 pm »
pics

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2019, 08:46:35 pm »
pics

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2019, 08:47:19 pm »
pics

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2019, 09:15:51 pm »
I think I figured out the OT wiring.  I feel a little more confident in this.

Offline Greg

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 106
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2019, 09:04:28 am »
It's a good idea to try and and trace it back but right off the bat, ž of the preamp except maybe the inverter (without errors) needs to be replaced with a guitar friendly circuit if you want to use the amplifier for the guitar.

There are regions in the re-drawing that I do not understand, some also doesn't make sense with missing B+ nodes etc... I would leave off any feedback circuits in general and I would scrap it and build a guitar friendly circuit instead if you do not wish to repair this organ. 

Obviously your organ has issues (stuck key sound) leaking sound into the amplifier, probably the tonewheels and sometimes you might actually hear the faint sound of the whole keyboard at high pedal volume settings with the amp idling while not playing anything.

Realizing your amplifier still amplifies the sound of a dying organ with normal voltages indicate that it is working. Maybe weaker with old tubes but then, you will have to compare with a new set and find the bad ones in the old set with somebody that has a tube transconductance meter.

But even before trying a new set, your ongoing schematic (if really as is) is likely the product of someone who probably did subjective work inside that need to be corrected. It seems counterproductive without having an accurate original schematic, to try and re-interpret the circuit using images of other wrecks having also some loose wires in common. I would scrap it and build another, using creativity among the available cleaned strips, new caps, well definitely new e-caps, new resistors etc...

So you have big transformers and with the organ's continuous tone, chords and all, I think the designers put good faith into those 6973's. Playing guitar through them with the intermittent nature of guitar playing (finite sound, breaks) will be kind of a relief for them, unless someone is picking whole tunes with chords using a small fan. You still have a sagging 5y3 which is not to be changed unless you add some resistance. The power tubes are still operating within their range looking at the data sheets.

So yes, 430V on the plates with fixed bias is ok... Just make sure the sg2 has 300v max or correct it so that it does. This supro two-section LFO circuit is a good idea and better tremolo than a princeton but its paraphase inverter will not work Ťas isť with fixed bias. You can replace it with an LTP with a small tail 6k8,10k and without feedback, like the 5G9 tremolux. This will retain the sound of the supro I think while making it work fixed bias.

If you want reverb, you can also build one channel with the actual 3 double-triode preamp chassis arrangement but using different types, for adequate gain and overall functionality. A 12ax7 input stage followed by the oscillator as the first tube envelope. The osc. cathode's being directly tied to the input stage section's cathode and sharing a bias resistor early supro-like. Then you will have to keep the hi-pass thumping filter to keep the supro sound. If you want it sounding more fender-like, do not put this filter and wiggle the -25 volts instead at the power tube grids junction, it will cancel residual low freq thumping and you will have richer low-end. Then you need one tube reverb drive and recovery with a coupling circuit and there's lots of known good one tube reverb circuits on this forum. Then, you need to wire that third tube, a driver inverter with some recovery gain without any negative feedback from the output, best using a 12AX7 as an LTP or split load. 

The reason I suggest fixed bias rather than cathode bias is I find fixed bias to sound better with high plate volts, lower current settings. You will have to tweak the bias circuit (use a diode) to have between -25 -30 v. on the grids and 25ma flowing through each plate. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 01:40:45 pm by Greg »

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2019, 08:50:42 pm »
> regions in the re-drawing that I do not understand

There is much not-right in that drawing. There are common building-blocks drawn wrong. Should probably find a "similar", and work out the differences. It is cathodyne, fixed-bias.

Tube amps are like houses. Yes there are yurts and castles and split-levels. However if you are told "ranch, door on the right" you can nearly draw-out the floorplan without seeing the house. Livingroom behind front door, kitchen behind that, bedrooms in the left side, bath tucked in rear next to kitchen. Every room connects to a hall.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2019, 08:08:44 am »
I've put this together based on your pics and notes. There are three points that I need to have verified. I'd also like to see a pic of the outside of the chassis, the end with the fuse on it.

Put the tubes in and measure voltages for ALL PINS for V3, V4, V5, and filter cap can points A, B, C.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2019, 09:04:47 am »
Thanks to all for the feedback and replies.  I know my attempt at a schematic is feeble and lacking. My hope is to learn from my errors as i dont really understand the "building blocks" fully yet but i am trying.  This is the first amp i have dealt with that is has an adjustable bias circuit and there is a lot of hallways that connect to secret tunnels off chassis before returning.  It makes this old house a little spooky to me not to mention i havent replaced the two wire knob and tube wiring, which makes me a little jumpy poking around to check voltages in the closets.

Sluckey, I am out of town for the remainder of the holiday with limited internet. I have some notes and photos with me and will attempt to fill in what i can but some info may have to wait til I get back home to the amp. I appreciate your schematic.

Offline SoundmasterG

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1203
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2019, 12:08:25 am »
I have one of these amps also. I got it probably 20 years ago. I haven't done anything with it yet but take all usable parts out of the chassis in preparation to use a new chassis. I don't have a schematic as I intend to build my own circuit out of it, so can't help you there. Looks like a cool project. It will likely sound great with those transformers which are somewhat oversized compared to what would normally be used with a guitar amp using these power tubes. Those blue molded coupling caps are good stuff...same as used in many Fenders and often still work fine today, but I'd check each of them for DC leakage before using. Good luck!


Greg

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2019, 09:59:50 pm »
Back at the ranch...  Sluckey, I think I have checked and verified all of the things you asked about in the schematic with eception of the voltage checks.  I want to put a 3 wire grounded plug on it tomorrow before I take the voltage measurements just to be on the safe side.

I canont be sure of the multicap values for A, B, C as the markings are not visible on the bottom of the can, but it seems the most logical.

I took another stab at drawing V1 and V2.  Hopefully I have improved on my first attempt...  Looks like V2 performs an off chassis function?


Happy New Year to all!

Edit:  Changed cord this AM and took voltage readings.  Readings are plotted on drawing. 





« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 11:45:57 am by 1blueheron »

Offline 1blueheron

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • More junk than I know what to do with...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Got a new project. Thomas Model "M" organ. PP 6973 power amp.
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2020, 11:55:14 am »
Here's is a picture of the cord and fuse end of the chassis.  The first two pins were the off chassis power switch.  I have them jumpered out in the picture so I could power up the amp.

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password