Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 07, 2025, 12:28:48 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?  (Read 4709 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Zelbrek

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
"Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« on: January 17, 2020, 02:18:35 pm »
Hi all.

Although I'm strictly an amateur guitar-slinger and wannabe amp-builder, over time I've had the pleasure of playing through or hearing a handful of Fender, Marshall and Vox amps (not to mention an Ampeg I once owned--supposedly created by a guy who hated distortion and designed his amps accordingly, a Roland--"strictly for jazz players", and one road-weary Traynor--a thunderous tank with a whole lotta bass), and have heard a lot of hype interesting information about various newfangled hipster connoisseur amps. I don't knock anybody who is trying to make an honest profit, but it seems to me that your local Guitar Center is chock-full of name-brand PCB amps which IMO sound like s***, require open-heart surgery to service, and aren't worth anywhere near the prices they sell for. And don't even get me started about crusty used & abused "vintage", "collectible" blahblahblah units that only rock stars can afford to buy.

I've also known a few harmonica players and lo-fi guitarists who really dig the sounds coming out of weird little home-brew or off-market amps that don't use any of the familiar 12AX7's, 6V6's, 5881's, etc. So, without wishing to create any bidding wars on eBay, I'm wondering if any of you have had good results using oddball tubes that are still around but that the cognoscenti are overlooking. Specifically, I'm thinking about 1) tubes that were designed for car radios or other devices running off of battery power, 2) tubes whose filaments run on neither 6V nor 12V, and 3) "made-for-television" tubes that nonetheless have cathodes, grids and plates and can therefore find service in an audio amplifier suitable for use with guitars. Nowadays it's relatively cheap and easy to plug your axe into just about any amp, hook a mic up to its speaker, inject that signal into a computer, and end up creating pleasurable audio artifacts which can later be amplified to stadium-level volume.

After binge-watching YouTube videos from D-Lab, El Paso Amps, the Guitologist and Uncle Doug, I've realized that I really love the sound of 40's-50's low-wattage (mostly) SE amps, and that there is a specific tonal coloration coming out of some of them that derives its aural appeal not to high-dollar oil-filled capacitors, precision-wound output transformers, cloth-coated wire and suchlike, but rather design considerations (or happy accidents) that allow them to deliver sound profiles offering a rich blend of BOTH odd- and even-order harmonics--something the bean-counters behind the latest whiz-bang "modeling" amps have supposedly learned how to replicate through the magic of digital engineering. My thoughts (and budget) lean toward turret-board or point-to-point wiring, which IMO allow for easy modification and servicing, over PCB units which most emphatically do not. If you've got this far, thanks for reading this admittedly long-winded screed. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt.

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 02:33:59 pm »
You told Oddball + SE

Here of Odd are also transformers and PS configuration

https://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/index.php?topic=52102.0

give a look also here

https://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/index.php?topic=48085.0

on post #124 there is a schematic

with a bit less power

https://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/index.php?topic=51922.0

schematic on post #22 + #28

Here there are no projects or schematics, but a list of usable tubes (many you can call Odd)

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11590.msg107311#msg107311

BTW, if you find an SE project that uses 6L6 as power tube, swap it with a 1625 tube (12v version of 807, very close to 6L6)

Franco
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 02:42:44 pm by kagliostro »
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline Zelbrek

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2020, 05:22:50 pm »
Excellent stuff here, much food for thought. For clarity's sake, let me state that I'm not wedded only to SE topology. My focus rather is on building an amp that "sounds good", whatever that may mean, out of junk tubes that nobody wants. It should be obvious that I really don't know a lot about electronics, but that won't stop me from throwing a bunch of parts together! The article you referenced gives technical explanations that are a little over my head, but it's gratifying to know that other people are taking tubes which were designed for use in television sets and designing guitar amps around them.

What got me started in this direction was the realization that a large part of the cost of a guitar amp comes from the tubes and transformers it uses. Just now I received in the mail a ClassicTone #40-18031 that set me back $30-$40. This will go into my first project amp, which will be a Champ clone. Still on order are three very standard tubes (12AX7, 6V6, 5Y3) for which I paid full price. I'm already out $100 or more, and I don't yet have a cabinet or a decent speaker, let alone capacitors, resistors, etc., etc. I don't begrudge the vendors the prices they charge, because I understand their need to make a profit, but I'm acutely aware of how expensive a hobby building guitar amps can be.

For the past few months, in leafing through many data sheets, I've seen that vacuum tubes have output impedances covering a wide range. Yet, based on a cursory examination of many different actual guitar amp schematics, I've made the obvious realization that many, if not most of them, seem to require a center-tapped PT that delivers 150V to 300V per side and an OT with a primary impedance of 5k to 8k in order to drive an 8-Ohm load. So, dumbass cheapskate that I am, I'm asking why it should be so. My junkbox contains a pile of OT's and PT's which won't be useful in any way, and which will likely end their lives in a burning cauldron, because all they are is raw copper with some worthless steel that merely detracts from the minimal scrap value that resides in the copper!

I recently posted a query, which several people (including yourself) were kind enough to read and reply to, regarding a pair of OT's I scavenged from a solid-state jukebox. Knowing from direct observation that big guitar amps use big transformers, I was hoping that I had the basis for a big, ballsy amp. Alas... Then, it hit me that maybe I could still use these hefty hunks of junk if I could find tubes whose output impedances were not the standard 5k to 8k, hence that earlier thread. Believe me: I wouldn't waste my time, let alone that of others, if I didn't think these discussions might benefit somebody else down the line. Word alone cannot convey my gratitude for the valuable free advice I've picked up here. In my own various lines of work over the years, I've given away hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars' worth of my time and expertise, because I know how valuable a person's time can be. And I still haven't given up on those two OT's; maybe if I turned them backwards they will end up finding a use. I refrained from posting a schematic diagram, because in truth they would require surgery because the primaries and secondaries are electrically connected inside and I didn't want to encourage some newbie from messing around with potentially lethal voltages. But, since I've re-opened that topic in a sidelong way, here is a file I found from the service manual to a Rowe CD-100A LaserStar:
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt.

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2020, 06:13:10 pm »
As to build something on the cheap you can consider also tubes that aren't Odd, but are cheap because they are the russian correspondent tube

as an example

6N2P = 12AX7 (they are near the same tube, only filament is 6.3V and not 6.3V/12.6V)

6P1P are like 6V6 only in a 9 pin envelope

but there are many others

--

If SE isn't your unique goal, here an interesting small PP amp

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=12647.msg118084#msg118084

Unfortunately Imases and scheme are not more visible

However, if you are interested, I've a copy of the schematic and can post it if you want

Franco
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 06:17:44 pm by kagliostro »
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2020, 08:56:34 pm »
You NEVER "match" a pentode to a load.

You find a happy balance of Voltage and Current. The product V*I is the dissipation (output up to 40% of that). The ratio V/I is very nearly the Optimum Load.

Other factors: filter caps cost more over 400V. Very high currents need big cathodes which is the most expensive part of the tube.

Say you want 4 Watts output, so 10 Watts dissipation.

> 150V to 300V per side and an OT with a primary impedance of 5k to 8k

You could try to find a tube to idle at 100V 100mA. It has to peak at 200mA. This means a really big cathode for a 10W tube. Load can be near 1k. 25L6 is about as close as you can get. Works better with 150+V 50mA and 2k-3k load.

You could run 500V 20mA. Only need 40mA peak, cheap cathode. Need a 25k load which is hyper-fine wire, and in practice won't have deep bass cause you can't get enough turns and insulation before breaking. Oh and high-V filter caps.

"TV" tubes ran more switch-mode. They have high current, low dissipation, high heater power. Since in SE and most audio push-pull, we are dissipation limited, TV tubes are only good for radical audio or if they are very cheap. (The real big Traynor ran TV sweep tubes very hard.)

Another issue is that G2 needs a fairly solid supply, so for simplicity we like Vg2 very similar to Vp. HIGH current tubes go another way with low Vg2 (for less G2 abuse). This makes sense in larger systems, TVs and radio rigs, where multiple supplies may be needed for several reasons; it is an unwanted complication in audio design.

You did not hear it here: 60FX(five) is a small sweet power tube. And very sensitive.

Offline DummyLoad

  • SMG
  • Level 5
  • *****
  • Posts: 5791
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2020, 11:11:07 pm »
6BK5 is another. cheap, sensitive, G2 is not too terrible, but SUCKS much heater juice - 1.2A for a 11.5W tube. 3.5Vrms to drive to full power with 3.5W output in class A. load R is a more manageable 6.5K. (use 7K fender champ OT with 250V B+). find them on fleabay for 3-5bux plus freight. antek sells a 50VA PT that would make a good match. 



--pete

Offline Zelbrek

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2020, 11:51:06 pm »
Wow, thanks guys.

I've long suspected, without really knowing why, that classic designs--the '59 Bassman circuit for example--didn't just "drop out of the sky", but rather built on decades of experience to achieve a happy medium between theory and practice. The incisive comments I've received to my queries here have given much food for thought, but it will take a lot of reading and head-scratching to make sense of this stuff.

Back in high school I should have spent less time smoking left-handed cigarettes out behind the gym and more time suffering through those boring Algebra lectures.... I still go cross-eyed whenever I see gibberish like "The XYZ of LRQ over the square root of Pie yields the Moo, or redundant frequency, of the TWA/Delta filter network".
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt.

Offline shooter

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 11015
  • Karma Loves haters
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2020, 04:57:28 am »
Quote
less time smoking left-handed cigarettes

you just haven't mastered thinking side-ways  :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline tubenit

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10274
  • Life is a daring adventure or nothing at all!
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2020, 06:03:19 am »
I'll offer a perspective for consideration.  I don't think tubes are that expensive.  Let's say a Marshall 50 watt has 3 12AX7's and 2 6L6's.  I can get all those for $100.

Let's say I'm not playing out but play 3-4 times a week at home for 20 min to an hour.  Those tubes might last me 10 yrs. (I say that because I have two amps I've built that bear that out)

So, that's $10/year for something I really enjoy.  My budget can handle that.  :icon_biggrin: :thumbsup:

What do you pay a month for internet and cell phone?  Do you go to a movie theatre a couple times a year?  How about going out to eat?  How often and what do you usually pay?

I think that perhaps a significant amount of the money "lost/wasted" in pursuing our passion for playing guitar has to do with buying stuff that doesn't quite work out for us and then horse trading, IMO.

IF you're able to know what you really want and buy keeper/player guitars and amps to start with, one can save a ton of money, IMO. I think we tend to "lose" money when we get something that falls short of what we're really wanting and then sell it at a loss.

Just a thought to consider.   With respect, Tubenit

Offline bmccowan

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1744
  • Better builder than player
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2020, 07:07:55 am »
After reading Tubenit's post, I went back and read the original post, which includes this:
Quote
I've realized that I really love the sound of 40's-50's low-wattage (mostly) SE amps, and that there is a specific tonal coloration coming out of some of them
So to Tubenit's point this is three tubes. I've been buying tubes for years, so have a lot of old US and European tubes, but there is nothing wrong with most JJs, etc. For the sound you are hearing and liking, my choice is to keep the B+ pretty low (325 or less) Classic Tone has PT options for this, and follow one or more of the classic SE schematics from Valco, Gibson, Magna etc. Most F Champs have higher B+ voltage which boosts volume and "punch." Nothing wrong with that, but its not the sound you describe. My favorites are the Valcos with the 6SL7 preamp that are getting discussed in a couple of other current threads.
But amp building is also a hobby and if you get into it, you end up liking to experiment with a lot of different circuits and tubes - eh, Tubenit? If you are enjoying the time, its not money wasted, its money invested. This is what I tell my wife. I tell her the same thing about my vintage car and motorcycle hobbies and she doesn't believe any of it. But she collects egg coddlers, so what does she know?
Mac
“To my surprise, when I opened my eyes, I was the victim of a great compromise.”
John Prine

Offline Zelbrek

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: "Oddball" Tubes: Worthy of experimentation?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2020, 07:45:49 am »
So much good stuff here!

Having spewed a lot of verbiage already, I'll refrain from responding to individual discussion points and simply issue a very hearty word of thanks to all of you. As far as hobbies (and expenditures) go, I can't believe the kind of crap that people spend their money on... I think the last time I went to a movie theater was when the first Star Wars movie came out. For some reason, I don't remember much about that movie, except a bunch of flashing lights. Must've been the roses.
Often wrong, but seldom in doubt.

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password