Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 04:33:17 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?  (Read 2901 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kharrisma

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« on: March 18, 2020, 02:52:22 pm »
Hey folks,

Is there any need (or benefit) to designing in a phase inverter in a low-wattage, single output tube amp?  I'm toying around with a 1-watt-ish "bedroom" amp, and probably using a 12AT7 as an output... I understand phase inverters are usually used with larger tubes (pentodes and such), but a dual-triode is two tubes in one envelope (sorta), so would there be any benefit in adding this to such an amp?  Or does this fall under the heading "needless complexity with no real benefit conferred?"  Or is it a just plain bad idea, or totally unnecessary?  Thanks for your thoughts.

Offline shooter

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 11014
  • Karma Loves haters
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 03:11:17 pm »
go here, read the phase invertor section AFTER the single ended one.

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/

a PI is required to drive 2,4,8 power tubes in push-pull mode
a driver is required for single ended power amps, no matter how many PA tubes you parallel together
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline d95err

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 244
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 03:15:17 pm »
Phase inverters are used in push-pull amps. Single-ended amps don’t use a phase inverter.

The number of output tubes is not relevant. You can have a single-ended amp with any number of output tubes and a push-pull with only one output tube (a dual triode).

Offline tubenit

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10274
  • Life is a daring adventure or nothing at all!
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 09:04:52 pm »
Look at this thread.  It has a lot of excellent information to answer your question.

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=18481.0

With respect, Tubenit

Offline SnickSound

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 137
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2020, 08:57:28 pm »
Hey folks,

Is there any need (or benefit) to designing in a phase inverter in a low-wattage, single output tube amp?  I'm toying around with a 1-watt-ish "bedroom" amp, and probably using a 12AT7 as an output... I understand phase inverters are usually used with larger tubes (pentodes and such), but a dual-triode is two tubes in one envelope (sorta), so would there be any benefit in adding this to such an amp?  Or does this fall under the heading "needless complexity with no real benefit conferred?"  Or is it a just plain bad idea, or totally unnecessary?  Thanks for your thoughts.

You can make it a "self-split" power amp. The Firefly is a good example of a DIY project with a self-split 12AU7 power amp.

Basically, for self-split you ground the grid of the 2nd triode, and both share an unbypassed cathode resistor. So when the first triode pulls more current, the cathode resistor drops more voltage and thus the 2nd triode lets less current through, and vice versa. Really, it's not unlike how a phase inverter itself works.

It's not very efficient though, for one thing you can't bypass the cathode resistor. Of course, that can help you if you're trying to keep the output level down.

It works... but I've never been a fan of it. Or at least, I've never played a self-split amp I liked.

Another thing to think about is that a dual-triode power amp won't pull much current, so it works very well with a cathodyne PI (with big grid stoppers, like 470k big). Many 1-5W Marshall amps use a cathodyne PI. That only requires one triode.

You can also run that dual-triode as parallel SE stages and then no phase invertion required.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 09:07:48 pm »
"Phase inverter" mostly makes sense for Push-Pull power amp. Like that stick behind two harnessed horses which splits the load between the horses.

Yes you can do P-P with both halves of a 12AT7. To do it "good" you use a phase splitter. As said, there are cheats.

All "real power tubes" need a Driver. Something to lift signal from around 1V to around 25V, maybe into small gridleak. Twice for push-pull. 12AT7 does not need a heavy-duty driver.

Offline d95err

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 244
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2020, 03:05:45 am »
I guess ”phase inverter” is not a very good name for this circuit. All gain stages invert the phase of the signal. ”Phase splitter” is perhaps more descriptive.

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Phase inversion on a low-watt amp?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2020, 05:44:02 am »
I think that we must remember that one of the advantage of the use of a Phase Inverter (or self split if we are fine with less power from same tubes) is on the OT

The OT on PP amp is smaller than OT on SE amp (same output power) and, also, allow noise cancellation

so, a self split configuration (PP without the use of a Phase Inverter) if we are comfortable with less power, will give us the advantage of PP configuration

as told, a Phase Inverter in an SE amp has not much sense

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password