Magnatone Vibrato/Reverb build Project

[sluckey]

I don't know. Click on the capacitor link below this message and you tell me.

[wsscott]

Certainly plenty to choose from!!  As to the software, since I'm an old retired fart with time to learn new things, and my brain is still pretty active, and I'm not traveling until we get rid of Covid-19, it might be a good project to learn the software and keep me distracted!!  Thanks again.  Stephen

[sluckey]

Certainly plenty to choose from!!

But only one xicon. I like them because they are cheap, small, and sturdy. Accidentally drag a hot soldering iron across it and it doesn't melt.

[shooter]

to learn the software and keep me distracted

This seems to have a good following
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?board=26.0

Visio that others use is another
if you're into pain , I use Express PCB and express SCH
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?board=12.0

[wsscott]

I'll check them out.  Thanks.

[shooter]

Doug's .diy you've seen, Sluckeys and others Visio also.
express PCB, I started using when it came on 3.5" floppys 

there's no easy way to "display" it for show an tell, this is a screen grab so the component values ain't visable. 

Pic a SW flavor, play maybe 20hrs and you'll have graduated from learning to doing 

[wsscott]

Thanks.  I started working with Display today, and its pretty tedious.  Since I've never built anything from scratch without a wiring layout, trying to figure out how to transfer the schematic to a wiring layout is tough.  I can read the schematic fine, I understand the wiring concepts, its just trying to figure out how to "translate" it to the layout software.  I'm pretty good with software and computers, I did .dbf "programming" in my spare time, and maintained the network and server and computers at my office--although that wasn't my job.  So I've got to figure out a rhythm to it.  Finding the part, putting it somewhere in the display, then adjusting the value, and then connecting the wiring is slow.  I'm letting it rest a bit for today.  Thanks for all your input. Stephen

[shooter]

trying to figure out how to transfer the schematic to a wiring layout is tough.

yup
that's why my Revibe looked like it did, I wanted to build it, not think about it's looks 
"study" ANY of Dougs or Sluckeys drawings, bounce between the sch and lay, "grasp" the "why the hell did he do it like that?", after 2-3 honest days, the fog starts lifting, lights come on, and you see the shore 

Look at 1 tube at a time, don't try and swallow the entirety in one bite

[wsscott]

Thanks, I'll try to move cautiously, keeping my patience, and avoiding frustration!!  Famous Last Words!

[shooter]

avoiding frustration!!

that and the #42 are the answer 
when a hobby becomes a frustration, it's called work, It's also the main wormhole ALL gremlins use 

[wsscott]

Well, I'm starting to work on the schematic layout today. I decided to get an eyelet board the size of the one I hope will fit in the chassis I want to use.  Its 15" long by 4" high.  I've then put together a blank, paper turret board form printout from Doug's website on which I'm going to layout the schematic. I've printed out the Preamp section in 2 large blowup pages and have labeled the resistors and caps numerically, and then created an Excel spreadsheet with each of the part numbers for these components and their values.  So my next step is to start tracing the circuit flow with component ID's onto the paper sheet turret board, and see how that works.

[shooter]

printed out the Preamp section in 2 large blowup pages

Including the tubes and pots/jacks, like the pic below?

I've done nice layouts only to realize all the wires leaving the board become twisted like spaghetti. 

[wsscott]

Nope, I'm just trying to get the components figured out right now, ie. the caps and resistors.  It looks like I will need to use jumper wire to connect some of the turret lugs together for the circuit to be "compact".  What wire do you use for that? Something like 20 ga. solid core insulated wire?

[sluckey]

I use 22awg  or 24awg tinned solid copper.

[shooter]

I'm an odd nut, I like 22ga stranded for everything but filaments.  20ga solid is fine, just more prone to nicks and hard bends that break over time.

the caps and resistors

how many is fine, where on the board requires thought for where they go off board.
an example would be the 1st turret is typically pin 3 V1a, NOT pin 1 because of tube rotation for filament wiring

[sluckey]

I'm an odd nut, I like 22ga stranded for everything but filaments.  20ga solid is fine, just more prone to nicks and hard bends that break over time.

He's asking about lacing turrets and jumpers on the board.

[66Strat]

I like the 22 gauge solid core wire. I like the solid core because it stays where you put it. I recently purchased some of the push-back cloth wire that Doug sells. It's flexible and the cloth is easy to push back. I look forward to using this wire.

For the heaters I like 18 gauge solid core. I keep the twists down to about 1 twist per inch to avoid stress cracking the wire. I saw a chart somewhere that provided the minimum bending radii for various solid wire gauges. One twist per inch is sufficient to keep heaters quiet in my experience.

[wsscott]

Well, I've gone back to the DIY Layout program, and am starting to get the hang of it.  I'm attaching a copy of the DIY so far that is 1/2 of the PreAmp circuit.  So I"m attaching the DIY file and the pdf of the Pre-Amp.  I've completed page 1 of the 2 pages.  So I thought I would send it up for your comments.  I'm sure you'll be frank, but its my first time--so please be gentle!!

[shooter]

gotta look at the original but c1 n R3 "look" wrong   EDIT: I'm wrong 

lacing turrets

bite of a pain to strip, even kinked 'em 

[wsscott]

Your turret board looks really nice.  What wire did you use to join the turrets together, I guess you would call it "jumper wire" of a sorts?  Also, what circuit is it for?  Thanks.  Stephen

[shooter]

typically called "lacing" and the wire I used is NOT something I'd recommend for lacing, it's a Teflon based, hard to get stripped, and pricey.

any solid strand copper, solder coated copper works, I used pvc solid I got from radio shacks end of days sale, easy to strip, almost free, but it's all gone so........

[wsscott]

What was the build?

[shooter]

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=25104.0

Version II is in my brain, but that's not waking up fast any more 

[wsscott]

I got the Preamp wiring section completed in DIYLayout this morning and the file is attached.  I've color-coded the wires so that helps a bit, but it still seems like there's too many wires running around.  I did modify the placement of some of the components from the first 1/2 of the build of the preamp section that I did yesterday, to make it look like its flowing a little better.  One question I have relates to wiring of multiple components at 1 turret or eyelet connection.  If you look at the schematic that I sent up yesterday that I'm working from, is the way I wired it at the C10, R16, and R17 connection point, and also at the C9, R15 and R16 connection point ok?  I didn't know if its okay to wire them at the related points, ie. is it better or is it necessary to wire to 1 point, then wire from that point to another, etc.  My thinking is that if the ends of those components are all going to wind up at GND, then I could put them all together at 1 point, and then run a wire from that point to GND.  Is that okay?  I did the same thing to get C9 to GND by taking the GND lead to the point where it meets with C8 and R12 which then goes off to GND.  Thanks for your education.  Stephen

[shooter]

Does .diy allow for export to something "common" like .jpg ?
multiple parts at one point is "normal" as long as "that point" makes sense.
you wouldn't want "that point" having a "fly wire" across 80% of the board to another point, when it could be re-done so the fly wire becomes a jumper to the next eyelet over. (hope that made sense :)

[wsscott]

I can export it as a pdf, and I've attached the file, but it only exports stuff on the board, and not off the board.  I don't know if this helps.  You could download the DIY program for free and use that if you want.

[shooter]

what you posted is fine, I've already forgot way more programs than I want to learn 

[wsscott]

Sluckey--what is the wattage of the 10K resistor between the D and E caps?  Is it 1 Watt also?

[sluckey]

Unspecified on the original schematic. That usually means 1/2W. I'd use a 1W though just to be sure.

[wsscott]

Thanks.  Here's the PreAmp and Power Supply Board.

[wsscott]

Sorry, and here's the PS with Component ID's.

[Willabe]

Have you seen this on grounding?

Very helpful for new builds.

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/Grounding.html

[wsscott]

Great! Thanks.  Stephen

[wsscott]

I've been making some progress with converting the schematic to a layout using DIYLayout software, and I"m attaching the latest.  I've got all the components for the Preamp, Power Supply and Vibrato sections on the layout, and will have just the Reverb to Output remaining.  Its going pretty well, but it seems like I"ve got a lot of hook up wires on the board, and most of them are going to grounds.  I guess I'll try to clean that up once I get the circuit completed.  Any ideas are appreciated.  Stephen

[shooter]

most of them are going to grounds

consider a ground buss for the preamp stuff.  I've stole from Sluckey and Doug and have 2 parallel busses, ground on one side of board, power on opposite side.
all the "pot" grounds can be done at the pots, then 1 wire to board buss.

[wsscott]

I have pretty much finished up the layout this morning, it still needs some cleaning up for the hookup wiring to be a little neater and maybe more efficiently routed, but I guess my next stage is figuring out whether to use a turret or eyelet board, or something else on which to mount the components.  I've not worked with turret boards before, but they do look neat--in more than 1 one way.  I'm just not sure of whether to get a turret board with the correct dimensions that I need and with all the turret holes filled in, or try to customize the layout of the turrets.  Thoughts on options and methodology?  Thanks.  Stephen

[wsscott]

Sluckey and Shooter, I wondered what you use for jumper wire between the components on the turret board.  I looked at the Layout image that Sluckey did of his Custom M-2 and can't really tell.  Is it insulated?  Thanks.  Stephen

[sluckey]

I use 24 AWG bare tinned copper wire. Single strand. This pic shows it very well...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/lil_maggie/m_big.jpg

[wsscott]

That's a really great looking build.  I finished the DIY layout of components, and it fits on a 15" board, but its certainly not neat looking--yet.  I was able to upload it to Hoffman's Analyzer for a turret board build just to see what the board would look like, and it produced an image based on my layout.  But my lingering question is whether or not the components will physically fit the way I've got them laid out.  For example, in one section of my layout I have 3, 1/2 watt resistors and 1 capacitor connecting end to end vertically on the board, within the 3.5" boundary.  But I don't know if they will actually fit that way.  How do you go about figuring out where you want the turrets to be placed?  Do I need to go into the "properties" of each component, and put in its dimensions?  Other than measuring each one, is there some other way to do that?  Thanks again. Stephen

[wsscott]

Sluckey--what are the dimensions of your turret board? That is the Custom M-2 isn't it?  Stephen

[wsscott]

Sluckey- Is it the Positive + side of the 1uf, 450 V electrolytic cap at V6 that's going to the B cap?

[sluckey]

Sluckey- Is it the Positive + side of the 1uf, 450 V electrolytic cap at V6 that's going to the B cap?

Positive side connects to V6 plates, not the B cap.

[wsscott]

Yes, sorry I just meant it was on the lead where the 5K 10W connects from the plate to the B cap.  And what is the size of your turret board for your build?

[sluckey]

And what is the size of your turret board for your build?

Which build?

[wsscott]

Sorry, the one in the photo which you recently attached.  I think it is the Custom Mag 2.  Its this photo: http://sluckeyamps.com/lil_maggie/m_big.jpg

[sluckey]

The size for all my boards is in the documents pdf. Won't be helpful for your project.

[wsscott]

I was thinking of using a single stereo jack for the Vibrato/Reverb footswitch jack, and use a 2 button Fender type footswitch.  Thoughts?  Anything special on the wiring from the jack to the board points?  I've seen a shielded 2 wire plus ground cable that has 1 shielded and 1 unshielded wire, plus the ground. Hoffman used to carry it but apparently doesn't anymore. 

[shooter]

should work, I like a 3 wire shielded, or 2wire (one shielded) whole cable shielded.
outer shield is NOT for signal/power/ etc.  so you need 2 signals, a ground, everybody shielded.
for work I was a frequent flyer of both belkin and belden 

[sluckey]

I was thinking of using a single stereo jack for the Vibrato/Reverb footswitch jack, and use a 2 button Fender type footswitch.  Thoughts?  Anything special on the wiring from the jack to the board points?

Saves drilling one hole. If the FS jack is very far from the point of connection for the reverb then use standard single conductor shielded cable. ( The orig. M10-A has the FS jack mounted next to the Reverb pot so only a 2" unshielded jumper was needed). The Vibrato doesn't need to be shielded.

You can buy a Fender footswitch for $25, and cut the RCA phono plugs off to install a stereo 1/4" phone plug. I would prefer to just put two phono jacks on the chassis.

     https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/footswitch-box-fender-two-button-vintage-rca-plugs

[wsscott]

Thanks.  I'm also trying to figure out a way of maybe limiting the number of pot cutouts in the chassis and was wondering if there's a "dual" type pot I could use for maybe the bass/treble pots which are both 1 M audio log, and maybe another dual one somewhere else.  I've seen a dual pot on AES, but don't think that it would work since it only has a single shaft.  I would need something with 2 wipers and 2 "controllers".  I have a MacIntosh Integrated Amp that has that type of setup for some of its controls.  Ideas?