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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Advice on using a GM tube tester  (Read 7276 times)

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Offline mrr3000gt

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Advice on using a GM tube tester
« on: May 13, 2020, 08:00:07 pm »
Hey gang,


I recently acquired a great condition B&K 550 Dyna Quik (uses the "Hickok bridge circuit" for GM).

This is a dynamic mutual conductance tester (dynamic I guess because it uses AC instead of DC for its signal to the tube under test).

So I replaced all the caps, and key resistors, calibrate it fully - everything works - and then realize: how do I use this??

The instructions tell me how to check good and bad and get the GM number. Thats not the issue - the issue is:

   (1) How do I grade tubes with it

and

   (2) How do I assess the tube life (life less "NOS")

I have about everything else for test gear made (LCR meters, oscilloscopes, multimeter fleet, emission testers) but not the GM test.

I did measure a batch of 6 5881s I had and my tester considers NOS as 6100 mhos with my sensitivity set at 39 (if I remember correctly). Not all were 6100 - some were more or less than that.

The engineer in me noticed a reciprocal nature in the sensitivity and the resulting mhos and theorized that grading tubes would be the amount of modulation I have to do to get the needle to hit 6100. So I had tubes that "measured" 41,41,42,40,39,40, 42. If that's true then matching would be to pair or quad the best similar at the sensitivity I got the needle to sit at 6100.

I admit I am not sure if this is how it is done. And my tester has two sensitivity settings for each tube: one HIGHER sensitivity setting for GOOD-BAD determination and a LOWER sensitivity for what it refers to as "Normal Gm". I used the Normal Gm for my conjecture journey I described above to see if it was a plausible use for tube matching. I assumed that the GOOD-BAD test and the Mhos for that range equated to the tube life and if more than the spec (6100 for 5881 on my 550) then that represented the tube life.

So do I have the whole shabang fundamentally misunderstood?

What is the correct way to use this tester?


 





Offline mrr3000gt

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2020, 08:52:37 am »



Pretty quiet on this non-amp building wing of the Hoffman Forum..


I just bought the book by Igor Popovich called  How to Use, Calibrate, Repair and Upgrade Vacuum Tube Testers and will do a little digging on this topic.


I am sure I am not the only one, so I will put some lessons learned on the topic on this thread should someone else land on it searching as I did.

Offline PRR

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 10:04:21 am »
> What is the correct way to use this tester?

That's always been a question.

First: Changing the "sensitivity" knob to get nominal Gm sounds like using a stretchy ruler to measure boards "all the same". Leave that knob at one setting, probably the chart nominal for that tube type.

I don't know what they mean by GOOD-BAD /"Normal Gm". Maybe it would make more sense if it was in front of me. Or when my fog (medical procedure) clears.

Gm is rarely the most important parameter.

Gm varies a lot with test condition. Which is almost never the condition in your circuit.

The major aim of most circuit design is to NOT be so dependent on device parameters. Swamping, NFB.

Offline mrr3000gt

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 10:24:41 pm »
Until the book comes all I know about it is here:


http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/b&k/550/


The manual and schematic.

Offline mrr3000gt

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 07:22:51 am »
I have figured out that I do not have one of those slick 0-130 type scales for mhos like some of the Hickok testers: I get mhos - at least what the test thinks it is.


So: I am not going to get a tubedepot number for each tube (unless I have a TV7 or similar). This was what I misunderstood - so its my relative Gm deflection against the testers target standard of new (or 'NOS' to use this overused word for a tube that tests strong). The number and scale appear to be unimportant and only portable within circuit families.


I am using mine with my variac set at 115v and that seems to make the heater voltages happy and correct - my sencore might mite likes 115v too. The compensation the 550 has for differences in line voltage appears to not compensate absolutely and introduces variation. Without the variac both the sencore and the 550 will increase the heater voltages and I would think everything else internally.


At my 124v line voltage the heater voltage for a 6L6 on my Sencore was 7.6 volts. At 115V regulated it is 6 and some change. Anyone else notice this as well with their tube test gear?

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 01:51:47 pm »
115V regulated???

I use my Sencore Mighty Mite @ wall volatge: about 123VAC

Offline PRR

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2020, 12:13:48 pm »
> 115V regulated???

mrr3000gt said "my variac set at 115v". (I assume "to output 115V".) So "regulated by hand", which is practical for small work.

A glance at the schematic shows the heater voltages and most else WILL vary with wall voltage. The 1.5V AC signal for grid-exciting the lame "Gm" function has two incandescent lamps in a bridge which will tend to reduce variation.

If a seller tested tubes, and this was the tester, I would pay no attention to results or claims. This is service-shop gear not lab gear.

Offline PRR

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2020, 03:58:10 pm »
Did you read this page?
http://www.alltubetesters.com/articles/tester_guide.htm

"The B&K models
"All are good service testers but do not directly measure Gm, nor can you get to Gm with a chart or math either. The better models are the 747, 747B, 707, These models have some other issues which are not addressed in this document. If you just want to look for good and bad tubes and accuracy and actual Gm values are not an issue for you theses unit are very good. Quick and simple to use."

There is a file on the web which is PDF but looks corrupted in my browser. In fact it is a PDF but the .PDF tag gets lost.
http://www.maarc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=120:tube-tester-presentations&Itemid=152&jsmallfib=1&dir=JSROOT/MAARC+Articles/TubeTesters&download_file=JSROOT/MAARC+Articles/TubeTesters/InsideTubeTesters_062614.pdf

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2020, 06:31:01 pm »
for accuracy and true gm, a laboratory grade mutual conductance test set like the one linked to below or similar. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-TRIPLETT-3444-VACUUM-TUBE-TESTER-MINT-CGI-REBUILD-DIGITAL-IP-METER/254191074001?hash=item3b2ef7fad1:g:t0EAAOSwliJbZktU


--pete

Offline mrr3000gt

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2020, 09:51:20 pm »
I actually also have a B&K 650 too - from what I see its just like the 550 I have.


Yes, the 115v in a variac is manually regulated (by me and the Fluke 87 I have have). I am just glad to have a more accurate assessment of tube function than my emission tester. In the end its just a deflection measurement of something I can gauge tube quality. Not an end all-be all.




Offline mrr3000gt

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 07:09:11 am »

I did read the article: as far as I know, the B&K dynamic conductance testers were shameless ripoffs of the Hickok bridge circuit once the original patents expired: 83 rectifier and 6BN8 tube circuit. Everything I was able to find of a short list of very respected B&Ks (550 and 650 included on that list) lead me to believe they were considered good testers.


I do have the Igor Popovich book arriving today and he has seem to have written the definitive repair/modify/use/study guide on tube testers.


I have looked into designs of a better tester - based on curve tracing and transient state testing across a usable range. The uTracer is one of them: https://www.dos4ever.com/uTracer3/uTracer3_pag0.html


The uTracer looked to be a great solution: finally a lab and research grade tester but I thought the PC/Software interface was not implemented too well. Perhaps even the weak link in a great idea the designer had. I have some deep experience in this as I was a R&D engineer for a good portion of my career for a fortune 100 automotive industry leader and developed interface drivers and proprietary hardware/software for testing engines and vehicle/machine systems. The uTracer needed the same in-depth consideration for ubiquity in its software interface the designer put into the design of the hardware. I did not want to invest great time in effort in something linked to a silly version of Windows or a specific set of drivers that would eventually be abandoned.


I nearly built a variant of this one: https://valveheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/An-inexpensive-easy-to-build-diy-valve-tester.pdf
Typical engineer solution: leverage what's available, get it built reasonably, and start using it :-). So I had come up with an extended design using my own spin (and my many vendors of ready-made boards and components). I design and build discrete electronic devices in my current role so I went big with the design.


Then I came full circle with the whole deal: at the end of the day "the best test of a tube device is in the circuit it is designed for". As an engineer myself, I do not generally like a destructive test of a parent target system to test a device for that system. So the most reasonable test in the last nearly 100 years has been a scaled approximation of a factor or two that can be - even by loose conjecture - to the circuits it is designed for: enter the ostensible tube tester!


Most of the testers built are a breeze to fix unless something fundamental is wrong (transformers, crazy complicated rotary switches,..). The Corona thing must have made people want to dump testers on the market: there are bazillions of good ones at reasonable prices these days. Even eBay has many Hickok 600 series for under 300-400 bucks these days. The B&Ks are of respected quality and are really cheap these days (I have a B&K signal generator in my personal electronics lab at work and like B&K anyway).


So never owning a Gm tester - of whatever flavor we want to call it - I was not sure how to effectively use this peripheral test of a tube (ergo: this thread's genesis). I figured it had to be more than using an emissions tester as a form of qualitative grading is possible beyond the emission/gas testers. I did not take into account initially that the scale used (determination of Mhos) is not uniform across all of the manufacturers. So I chose a Hickok-family circuit and that lead me to the B&K 500, 550, and 650 being the simples and most basic testers of that type B&K made.


SO we shall see what Igor has to say about tube testers (https://www.amazon.com/Calibrate-Repair-Upgrade-Vacuum-Testers/dp/0980622379).





for accuracy and true gm, a laboratory grade mutual conductance test set like the one linked to below or similar. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-TRIPLETT-3444-VACUUM-TUBE-TESTER-MINT-CGI-REBUILD-DIGITAL-IP-METER/254191074001?hash=item3b2ef7fad1:g:t0EAAOSwliJbZktU


--pete

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2020, 09:35:59 am »
You may have moved on from this thread in the intervening months, but:

...
   (2) How do I assess the tube life (life less "NOS")
...

Steal a page from Hickok:  On page 4 of the Hickok 536 manual (7th page of the pdf) they explain the functioning of their Life Test switch.  By throwing the switch, the tube's heater voltage is reduced (so 6.3v tubes get 5v, etc).  If the tube still measures in the Green "Good" part of the English scale afterwards, the tube is considered to have a lot of remaining life.

So what does that mean?  On page 2 of that manual, Hickok explains the left edge of the Green "Good" part of their scale corresponds roughly to 20%-below the bogey value of Gm they print on the roll chart for small-signal tubes, and 35%-below bogey for power tubes.  That's obviously an approximation, given the fixed nature of the numerical Gm scales & the Good scale.

Regardless, switching to a lower heater voltage reduces heater power warming the cathode, which can reduce its emission.  I've used Hickok's Life Test on a bunch of tubes in the past.  When I tried the test on a new tube (or a very strong used tube), the Gm reading (or position along the "Good" portion of the English scale) stayed the same, or moved lower only slightly (and very slowly at that).  Tubes that were more worn had readings that were very much lower, and often the needle moved rapidly down the scale as the cathode cooled to the new, lower heater-power.

It's a subjective measurement, but it does tend to indicate which tubes have very strong cathodes, and which have more-worn cathodes.  Rather than rely entirely on the Good/Bad scale entirely, it's somewhat up to the user to test a bunch of tubes with that style of Life Test.  Afterwards, you will have a feel for tubes whose Gm slowly drifts downward some amount due to the reduced heater power, and those tubes that rapidly "fall off the cliff."  Even if tubes in both camps eventually settle on the same Gm figure, it will be clear the ones that fell off the cliff have markedly weaker cathodes.

...
   (1) How do I grade tubes with it
...
I did measure a batch of 6 5881s I had and my tester considers NOS as 6100 mhos with my sensitivity set at 39 (if I remember correctly). Not all were 6100 - some were more or less than that. ...
I have figured out that I do not have one of those slick 0-130 type scales for mhos like some of the Hickok testers: I get mhos - at least what the test thinks it is.


So: I am not going to get a tubedepot number for each tube (unless I have a TV7 or similar). ...

FWIW, I consider the 0-130 scales & the numbers from them useless, if only because I don't know what the number is supposed to mean.

If I were you, I'd "grade tubes" using the numerical micromho reading on your tester, as compared to the setup data provided by B&K.  The Gm value they provide is supposed to be "average" for that tube type, and with their tester.  Every tube tester company winds up stating the printed figure is an average value, and even new tubes will test above & below that figure.  Simply, there are tolerances to tube characteristics, and things can be all over the map in various ways.  Check out Getting the Most Out of Vacuum Tubes for more info on that.

The biggest key is to not be too wedded to your specific tester's figures as "absolute" because essentially all the easy-to-use testers (and perhaps many of those based on the Hickok method?) are flawed in their approach.  Readings compare directly against readings of other tubes made on that same tester.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Advice on using a GM tube tester
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2020, 09:36:31 am »

____________________________________________

I have a Hickok 533a in storage, but I mainly use a Russian L3-3 tube tester.  I'm very confident the readings it delivers are absolute, but the set-up & use time is terribly long compared to Hickok or your Dyna-Quick. The whole point of most Hickok and B&K testers is to be more portable and quicker/easier to use ("I need an ohmmeter to tell me now if my resistor is Open/Shorted/Good. I don't need a Wheatstone bridge and a galvanometer to measure the precise resistance to 8 significant digits...")

It is different from the bulk of American service tube testers in that there are separate, regulated power supplies for Plate, Screen, and Bias voltages, and there is an internal tuned-oscillator to feed the a.c. tester signal, along with a selective voltmeter circuit to only see variational plate current resulting from the input signal. The initial setup procedure involves calibrating the supplies, transconductance measurement, and the meter's readings on a variety of scales (including the microammeter scales used in the leakage tests).  The tester measures plate, screen & grid current as well as transconductance, and the first step is checking plate/screen current for the applied plate/screen/bias voltages (which can be compared directly to tube data sheet figures).  And the tube can be tested with either fixed bias or with cathode resistors provided auto-bias.

The kicker is the plate current measurement.  It's spelled out more in small-signal tubes (see page 4 of this 12AX7 data sheet), but for all tubes the internal plate resistance falls and Gm rises when the tube is operated at higher plate current.  By measuring plate current first, the L3-3 can identify tubes that tend to run at higher/lower plate current (than shown on the data sheet) for the given data sheet condition.  I make a note of that actual plate current first.  Then the fixed bias can be adjusted until the tube lands on the data sheet value of plate current, and a Gm measurement made.  Now the Gm figure isn't artificially high/low just because the plate current was high/low.
  • The maximum output of the L3-3's tuned oscillator is also only 450mV (for power tube types), and is further divided-down for small-signal types.  The small a.c. signal means a closer approach to the true meaning of "Gm = Ip / Eg"
The plate current test also called out tubes as defective, that others might have called "better than NOS" on a typical Hickok.  I was using the 250v plate & screen Class A Amplifier condition on page 2 of this 6L6GC data sheet.  Bias was set to -14v, and the sheet shows ideal plate current of 72mA and Gm of 6000 micromhos (6mA/volt).  I'd tested ~30 was American 6L6GCs and 5881s with that setting.  Most landed at a plate current slightly less than 72mA, with a range from 60-88mA.  Gm was slightly above & below 6mA/v, even before correcting for plate current & even if the tube's plate current was a bit lower-than-average.

But then I popped in some American-made 5881s from 1989, and with an off-brand label (though internally they looked like old Tung Sol 5881s).  Plate current was 132mA, and Gm was off scale (above 7500 micromhos or 7.5mA/v for that setup).  Double the expected plate current couldn't possibly be right!  I tried using another data sheet condition with 200v on the screen and -12.5v bias which should have given 48mA plate current & 5300 micromhos (5.3mA/volt), but the tube measured 98mA plate current and 6.9mA/volt!

My interpretation is the tube was defective and sold off by the manufacturer to the off-brand company way back in the 80s, who cheerily sold it as "better than new!"  Someone testing that tube today on their Hickok or B&K will hopefully have tested a bunch of other 6L6 types and at least notice none of the other tubes pegged the Gm/English scale like that.

 


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