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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: B+ dropping resistor hum  (Read 3112 times)

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Offline 6v6Pin1

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B+ dropping resistor hum
« on: August 20, 2020, 10:18:54 pm »
I was messing around with my 5e3 build and I ran into something I don't understand.
I changed the 22k B+ resistor to a 10k, everything was fine.
Then I changed that resistor to a 1k, and picked up a lot of hum.
I repeated the change to confirm and got the same results.
Why would that happen?

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_5E3.pdf

Offline tubeswell

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2020, 12:00:31 am »
A schematic is always useful


Each R/C filter in the supply rail is a low-pass filter that shunts as much frequency bandwidth as possible out of the power supply rail, so that the power rail is as stable (DC) as possible, to minimise noise and hum.


The frequency roll-off point (at which frequency is rolled off (by 6dB per Octave - or 20dB per decade) needs to be as low as possible to in order to achieve minimal hum, and is expressed by the function: f=1/(2.pi.R.C), where f is the frequency in Hz, R is the resistance in Ohms, C is the capacitance in Farads, and 2.Pi is 44/7 :-)


If you change either the 'R' or the 'C' component of each R/C filter, it can reduce the ability of the R/C filter to shunt noise out of the power rail, because it can raise the low-frequency shelving point up into the audible range (and so you don't get the low frequencies shunted out of the power rail, and they manifest in the signal path instead).

The screen ('g2') supply node filter cap (A.K.A. the 'smoothing cap' in this amp) is important for the whole power supply smoothing function, because it is the node where ripple current (from the reservoir cap) gets smoothed out. It also supplies DC to the screens, and any 'noise' left here will result in g2 current feedback in the output tubes (which can affect the way the frequencies are filtered, especially when you start hitting power chords). The bigger the g2 supply node cap, the more 'bass' you tend to get in the amp. (Early supro bass amps made the g2 cap larger than the reservoir cap)


The 22k dropping resistor works the same way in the R/C filter for the pre-amp supply. You want to keep the resistance and/or capacitance in this filter large enough to shunt as much noise out of the pre-amp supply as possible, because this supplies the input stage (amongst others). The input stage is where the S:N ratio is the highest, so any noise appearing in the power supply here is likely to be amplified throughout the subsequent signal path.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 12:19:09 am by tubeswell »
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Offline 6v6Pin1

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2020, 02:14:32 pm »
Very helpful, thank you. I built the Hoffman 5e3 schematic (except for these changes). But the schematic you posted matches the B+ circuit.

f=1/(2.pi.R.C)

2pi = 6.283
R = 22000
C = 0.000016
f = 0.45

R = 1000
f = 9.94

Is my math correct? It sounded to me like ~120hz hum. What are these calculations telling me?

Offline shooter

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 02:59:49 pm »
my interpretation of "what happened" going from 22k to 1k, you're 22 times more likely to get audible hum  :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline tubeswell

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2020, 05:44:45 pm »
2pi = 6.283
R = 22000
C = 0.000016
f = 0.45

R = 1000
f = 9.94

Is my math correct? It sounded to me like ~120hz hum. What are these calculations telling me?


Is not just the fundamental, its a whole bunch of 'hummonics' riding on the fundamental  :wav:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 05:47:04 pm by tubeswell »
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Offline PRR

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2020, 07:03:47 pm »
> R = 22000   f = 0.45
> R = 1000   f = 9.94
> ... ~120hz hum. What are these calculations telling me?


There is plenty of 120Hz in here. The high-level stages may not notice but the LOW-level stages may.
0.45/120 suggests about 1:240 reduction of 120Hz.
9.94/120 suggests about 1:12 reduction of 120Hz.

So about 20 times more buzz. (Probably 22 times!)

If you need low buzz you want 10%-25% drop in each R-C filter. Since resistors are the same price any value, you like large resistors. If 22k is *really* causing "too much drop", then reduce the resistor and *increase* the capacitor. 1k+352uFd may give similar buzz as 22k and 16uFd, but at 5 to 15 times the price and bulk.

Offline 66Strat

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Re: B+ dropping resistor hum
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2020, 08:27:19 pm »
Very helpful, thank you. I built the Hoffman 5e3 schematic (except for these changes). But the schematic you posted matches the B+ circuit.

f=1/(2.pi.R.C)

2pi = 6.283
R = 22000
C = 0.000016
f = 0.45

R = 1000
f = 9.94

Is my math correct? It sounded to me like ~120hz hum. What are these calculations telling me?

The 9.94 hz calculated value does not reflect the frequency of the hum. It represents the frequency that the hum is attenuated -3 db. At 120 hz the hum is attenuated about -21 db.
Regards,
JT

 


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