toneking imperial voltages / transformers

[Bieworm]

Hi there!!

I am thinking about doing some sort of clone build of a Tone King Imperial. Does anybody have more information about the voltages on the B+ rail?
Is there more information available about the specs of the powerTx and the OTx ?

thanx!!

[Latole]

" The Tone King Imperial was designed by Mark Bartel and is based on the Fender Deluxe Reverb design but with some notable tweaks."

https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/tone-king-imperial/
________________

I'll go for Fender Deluxe Reverb voltages:

https://robrobinette.com/How_The_AB763_Deluxe_Reverb_Works.htm

Transformers specs ; look at tubesandmore ;
https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/transformers_chokes?filters=Replacement%20Type%3DReplacements%20for%20Fender


Show us the schematic of the Tone King you want to built .

[Bieworm]

" The Tone King Imperial was designed by Mark Bartel and is based on the Fender Deluxe Reverb design but with some notable tweaks."

https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/tone-king-imperial/
________________

I'll go for Fender Deluxe Reverb voltages:

https://robrobinette.com/How_The_AB763_Deluxe_Reverb_Works.htm

Transformers specs ; look at tubesandmore ;
https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/transformers_chokes?filters=Replacement%20Type%3DReplacements%20for%20Fender


Show us the schematic of the Tone King you want to built .

oh... haven't realised that. In that case I think I will be better off building a deluxe reverb and tweak from there. I will surely not do the optotrem, but go for the bias vary trem. Will only build it with the trem channel. Any known good ideas that will work to obtain a nicer overdrive than the standard DR? something less flubby...
The toneking has a very nice overdrive for that matter...

[Latole]

For nice overdrive, I'll use good overdrive pedal.

I built a Deluxe Reverb amp from scratch, a great sounding amp

No Tone king schematic ?

[Bieworm]

For nice overdrive, I'll use good overdrive pedal.

I built a Deluxe Reverb amp from scratch, a great sounding amp

No Tone king schematic ?

yes. here they are. but they are not entirely clear to me..the heater wiring for example..the tube numbering does not correspond with the schematic + pin numbering is not right either IMHO
And I don't like to work with relays. The solid state tremolo wiggler ...no fan of either

ah it's al very fresh, this idea. But the general sound of the tone king is very nice , that's why I came up with this idea...

[Bieworm]

Heck..  I want to try building the imperial as is per schematic  posted earlier. But I have zero knowledge about relays. Is that complicated?
The relays are not specified.. any idea which types I could use? Where can I find more photographic or drawn documentation on how I should wire these inside an amp for channel switching and trem activation? Help is welcome...thx

[Latole]

Relay ? Some information to studies:


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/howrelayswork.html

[sluckey]

https://el34world.com/projects/relay_switch.htm

[Bieworm]

I am going to draw a layout. Maybe you guys can help me out where I might/will get stuck...

[Latole]

Help yourself with a Fender Deluxe Reverb Layout.
Forget vibrato circuit :

https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_deluxe_reverb_aa763_layout.pdf

[Bieworm]

Help yourself with a Fender Deluxe Reverb Layout.
Forget vibrato circuit :

https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_deluxe_reverb_aa763_layout.pdf

Thx! Good tip!

[Bieworm]

I started drawing a layout. Before I go on... anybody have remarks on this one? Is there certain trouble to be expected the way I'm doing it?
Still figuring out the relay part... I'm at the stadium in the layout where I have to implement them in the circuit.
As for the reverb... I want it always on on both channels. Guess I have to implement it later in the circuit? Between connections marked as 'X'? Looks like the area to put a passive FX loop too...
When I ditch the relays (don't need them for reverb) for channel switching and just use a DPDT, I can only switch channels by hand. Is there a way to use a footswitch instead? I'm thinking a standard fender double footswitch.. one for the trem and one for the channel. Heck I should do the relay thing, but don't know how...
The green+red turrets are where I have to proceed. It's The upper part of the preamp schematic I have put on the turretboard layout...

[AmberB]

There's basically 2 ways that I know of to do channel switching with a footswitch.  Relays or opto-couplers.  I've seen opto-couplers used is a couple of Fender amps, and Peavy tube amps.  The relay method is more understandable to me now that I've built one.  I got the parts from Hoffman's store and used the schematics listed previously, the ones on EL34 world.  It works quite well.

The really old fashion way to do channel switching with a foot pedal is to build a footswitch box with 1 in and 2 outs.  You plug the guitar into the footswitch box and switch between the outs.  Those are plugged into the 2 channels of your amp.

[PRR]

> ways that I know of to do channel switching with a footswitch.

BJTs, FETs, 2-ch opamp chips, JFET and CMOS switch chips, multiplexers. And Neil's wizzer.

And I suppose someone has foot-switched a lamp aimed at a motivated stage-tech to switch wires/knobs on demand.

[Bieworm]

> ways that I know of to do channel switching with a footswitch.

BJTs, FETs, 2-ch opamp chips, JFET and CMOS switch chips, multiplexers. And Neil's wizzer.

And I suppose someone has foot-switched a lamp aimed at a motivated stage-tech to switch wires/knobs on demand.

Thát is extensive!!! Great throw at it 😄

[Bieworm]

Anybody have some serious remarks on the layout I'm working on?

[Bieworm]

Question: I would like to put in the bias vary trem of the Hoffman AB763 one-channel. Can I do a copy-paste of that on the Imperial? Should I change the plate resistor of the trem tube from 470k to 100k?

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_AB763_1.pdf

Also, the reverb... That's a Blackface type reverb on the hoffman, no? It should outstand the ipmerial's reverb, which is kinda dull.. I mean, they bragg about the reverb being softer and more useable.. I think that's a bad thing, because the fender reverb is the best in it's league...

[shooter]

Can I do a copy-paste of that on the Imperial?

the int pot will need a path to ground since your amp is self biased n Dougs is fixed
I would leave the 470k for the tweaking stage

[Bieworm]

Can I do a copy-paste of that on the Imperial?

the int pot will need a path to ground since your amp is self biased n Dougs is fixed
I would leave the 470k for the tweaking stage

Can I conclude the 3rd lug to ground instead of to -50V , or both?

[sluckey]

Question: I would like to put in the bias vary trem of the Hoffman AB763 one-channel. Can I do a copy-paste of that on the Imperial? Should I change the plate resistor of the trem tube from 470k to 100k?

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_AB763_1.pdf

Also, the reverb... That's a Blackface type reverb on the hoffman, no?

Just copy the Hoffman tremolo EXACTLY. Keep the 470K plate resistor. However, the INTENSITY pot right lug (as seen on the layout and schematic) must be connected directly to ground.

Hoffmans AB763 reverb is blackface.

[Bieworm]

question about the relay switching. I think I am starting to understand it, so I might keep things as is.. except for maybe the reverb....
To be sure I understand this correctly, could you look at the schematic attached here if it is ok?

[sluckey]

Not OK. The relay coils need to be connected in parallel, not series. I didn't even look at the contacts.

[Bieworm]

ah..crap! I'll have to look at it again

[Bieworm]

And suppose I put the relays in parallel? Do you think the connections are correct?

[sluckey]

Not even gonna guess. But if you'll draw the contacts in the schematic (not layout) I'll try. But ain't gonna flip between a relay drawing and schematic. Do your part.

[Bieworm]

ok Steve...

I have adapted the relays on the schematic, like you asked...

[Bieworm]

and here with the BF reverb mod

[sluckey]

You have too many contacts for K2 and K3. Hoffman's relays are all DPDT (equivalent to two SPDT in one box). There are two terminals for the coil. There are only six terminals left for the switch contacts.

K1 will work but a couple things... You call it a SPST but in fact it is a SPDT. And simplify your wiring. You only need one green and one red wire to the relay. Connect R18 and R20 directly together and run a single green wire to the relay. Likewise for C19 and C20.

[Bieworm]

okay.. like this then?

by the way.. is there a very huge difference in using only 1/2 12AX7 for the reverb preamp instead of parallel? And if only 1 half is used, can the recovery share that tube half? That would be the one-tube reverb? I have that exact one-tube reverb in my Marble Clubreverb and it is VERY good. The only difference is that the marble has a 200k resistor in series with a .001uf cap from the middle lug of the pot to the PI grid..

Are these relays I can use? How many amps must they be able to handle?

[Bieworm]

Nobody?

[sluckey]

That little Omron will handle all your relay needs on that schematic.

[Bieworm]

That little Omron will handle all your relay needs on that schematic.

And the switching.. is that correct this time?

[sluckey]

Study this drawing. Label your contacts as COM1, NC1, NO1, COM2, NC2, NO2. Then we won't have to guess.

[Bieworm]

Study this drawing. Label your contacts as COM1, NC1, NO1, COM2, NC2, NO2. Then we won't have to guess.

Thanks steve!! I was on the wrong track about how these switch. I assumed they switched like toggle switches. This is a very useful piece of information

[sluckey]

I understood your drawing but I was pretty sure that when you wired it up it would not work. You're on the good path now. Seriously though, label the contacts as I mentioned. Then everyone should understand your circuit.

[Bieworm]

anybody have a schematic to power the switching relays via the heater wiring? The transformer on the schematic of the imperial has a separate tap for the relays, but the transformer I intend to use doesn't (hammond 290BEX)
It looks like I must be careful with the ground reference...

[shooter]

https://el34world.com/projects/relay_switch.htm




try this

[Bieworm]

The imperial wires the center tap from the heaters to the cathode. I have the feeling that I can't juice the relays doing that. So my guess is that I don't connect the center tap to cathode. In fact don't connect the center tap at all and wire the relays according to the hoffman schematic?
Or maybe I can switch the rectifier tube to EZ81 or SS rectification, so I have the 5V tap left to juice the relays?

[sluckey]

Keep it simple. Just buy the smallest 6.3VAC transformer you can and use that for the relays.

[Bieworm]

Keep it simple. Just buy the smallest 6.3VAC transformer you can and use that for the relays.

I drew out a schematic.. maybe that will work?

[Bieworm]

Keep it simple. Just buy the smallest 6.3VAC transformer you can and use that for the relays.

something like this?

[Bieworm]

is this circuit for the relays switching ok? I drew it with a separate power supply transformer 240VAC-6VAC

[sluckey]

Neither of those drawings will work.

[Bieworm]

Where are the mistakes?

[sluckey]

Not trying to be mean but it's a very simple circuit. And the mistake is also simple. Stare at it until you say duh. I know you can find it.

[Bieworm]

Not trying to be mean but it's a very simple circuit. And the mistake is also simple. Stare at it until you say duh. I know you can find it.

Ok I found some errors...

[sluckey]

Keep starin'... 

[Bieworm]

Keep starin'... 

modified it again...

[Bieworm]

maybe this DUH? connect the minus side to ground reference?

I'm just guessing right now... ah crap!!!

[Bieworm]

Ok, I put the hofman schem aside and put the Imperial schem back on the table...
here goes: