Best High Gain Circuit

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Hello all! Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but, what is the best circuit for super high gain? I’m speaking specifically for extreme heavy metal players and the like. All input would be much appreciated!!!

Thx

[jammied]

That's a tough question! All kinds of different heavy metal sounds.


No pedals probably a Laney


With pedals probably a steel string slinger like Kirk Hammet


Or jcm800 Zack Wylde


Or go crazy and cascade the channels on a bassman100


Over on the ax84 site there use to be some highgain amps. Thinking one of them was called the renagade?


Been awhile since I looked into it

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Definitely no pedals. I want to build (not now, but someday, when im ready) a pure ultra gain circuit. Who could argue with a laney. I should try to rustle up a schematic or two and try to learn it. The Renegade sounds cool...

[1blueheron]

Hello all! Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but, what is the best circuit for super high gain? I’m speaking specifically for extreme heavy metal players and the like. All input would be much appreciated!!!

Thx

Not sure there is a classic all tube solution that suits extreme heavy metal at this time.  Was just discussing this the other day in another post.  Most real "heavy" stuff today played with drop tunings or classified as "djent" would likely require two or three separate amps/speakers. One for the leads and one for the lower frequencies and extensive use of pedals or boosters. 

Take a look at the EVH 5150, Peavey Invective (6505 based), PRS MT15, ENGL, H&K, Mesa, Quilter, Orange, and possibly Friedman.  Many of these brands have been tweaking amps to suit the "metal heads" and the fringe element. Keeping the bass tight is an issue.  Some metal has a lot of low frequency elements that can drive tubes into distortion and muddy the mids and highs prematurely.  If you filter it out, it destroys the chug and thump.  Most of the above mentioned amps are using multiple 12AX7 based gain circuits. Think Marshall with a couple more preamp stages and some monster output tubes to control the speakers.  Not to say it is the best, but it is what is currently in production, available and "affordable" for destructive use.


 

[jammied]

Just looked on the ax84 sight. And would think that the Uber Gain pre amp might get you there .


So take a jcm800 and change the pre amp to Uber Gain specs. And run some 6550's or kt88's in the power amp.


Almost all of the high gain amps use fets/diodes for clipping and control

[jammied]

Almost forgot! Then get ready to find some ev12l or the likes type of speaker

[jammied]

Well dang it's been done!


Do a search here on the forum for 50 watt Uber high gain!

[imgumby001]

Hello all! Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but, what is the best circuit for super high gain? I’m speaking specifically for extreme heavy metal players and the like. All input would be much appreciated!!!

Thx

Not sure there is a classic all tube solution that suits extreme heavy metal at this time.  Was just discussing this the other day in another post.  Most real "heavy" stuff today played with drop tunings or classified as "djent" would likely require two or three separate amps/speakers. One for the leads and one for the lower frequencies and extensive use of pedals or boosters. 

Take a look at the EVH 5150, Peavey Invective (6505 based), PRS MT15, ENGL, H&K, Mesa, Quilter, Orange, and possibly Friedman.  Many of these brands have been tweaking amps to suit the "metal heads" and the fringe element. Keeping the bass tight is an issue.  Some metal has a lot of low frequency elements that can drive tubes into distortion and muddy the mids and highs prematurely.  If you filter it out, it destroys the chug and thump.  Most of the above mentioned amps are using multiple 12AX7 based gain circuits. Think Marshall with a couple more preamp stages and some monster output tubes to control the speakers.  Not to say it is the best, but it is what is currently in production, available and "affordable" for destructive use.


 

Ha! Yes, available for destructive use...

Well dang it's been done!


Do a search here on the forum for 50 watt Uber high gain!

Ok, I’ll have a look at that one. Make no mistake, I’m not ready to build something like this right now. I’ve got a 5f1 kit on my bench, and another class A single end circuit that I’m going to REALLY build from scratch first. If I can get those right I’m going to tear into one of the AO-29’s I have and see if I can make something a little more complicated. Perhaps, just maybe, after that I’ll try a circuit with reverb. Even then I may not be ready...but one day...

[jammied]

Takes some doing to get them dialed in.


All of the Peavy high gain have gates and pretty much every sound clip you can hear them hitting the gate.


The 2203kk Kerry King jcm800 has a gate but I haven't seen a video where they are hitting it. Haven't heard the Laney hit the gate. But most of the others listed above really aren't full blown high gain amps. Or are more boutique

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I’m starting to accumulate lots of Hammond transformers, so I’m hoping I can repurpose one into an animal. I don’t actually need it to be crazy high watt output as far as speakers go. My Randall solid state pushes a 4x12 into oblivion. I think 40 or 50w would be more than I really use on a regular basis, I just want the deeeeeep crunch!

[jammied]

The gate will kick in during low volume also. It's part of the design.  Lots of solid state amps have gates also.


Drives me crazy listening to a high gain amp hitting the gate at any volume. Just when you think its going to really take of ... spike done start again

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Is it really necessary? Do you HAVE to have it? I’ve seen heads with up to six 12ax7’s and four or five power tubes, and I’d imagine they’re powerful and produce lots of gain, but why would you need to add a gate if your goal is high gain? Sorry for my ignorance.

[jammied]

The gates are there to stop oscillations and feedback . For the most part there are ways around them. That's the beauty of building your own. Dial it in the way you want it

[1blueheron]

Is it really necessary? Do you HAVE to have it? I’ve seen heads with up to six 12ax7’s and four or five power tubes, and I’d imagine they’re powerful and produce lots of gain, but why would you need to add a gate if your goal is high gain? Sorry for my ignorance.

My first thoughts about amp design were along the same lines as yours.  Want more gain? just add another 12AX7,  More power, just ass another output tube and bigger trannies.  Then I tried adding a gain stage to an old airline amp.  Darn if that thing didn't start squealing, motorboating, and behaving very badly.  It's not quite as simple as adding more. 

Also keep in mind that each of those 12AX7 bottles have 2 halves.  6 of them could represent 12 gain stages.  That is unlikely though.  Most likely there are 2 or three in the preamp section building gain for multiple channels and the rest are tone stack recovery, EFX loop, reverb, Phase inverter, etc. 

Good distortion harmonics takes a choir of tubes each singing an assigned part.  If one singer gets too loud and starts singing over everyone else or starts to get off key, it makes the whole choir sound crappy.  The builder is like a choir director.  He auditions each tube for his choir and assigns them specific parts, then gets them to all sing together in perfect harmony.   The whole is greater than the sum of its parts if done right.  If done wrong you end up with an uncontrollable grunting and squealing pig.

[imgumby001]

Is it really necessary? Do you HAVE to have it? I’ve seen heads with up to six 12ax7’s and four or five power tubes, and I’d imagine they’re powerful and produce lots of gain, but why would you need to add a gate if your goal is high gain? Sorry for my ignorance.

My first thoughts about amp design were along the same lines as yours.  Want more gain? just add another 12AX7,  More power, just ass another output tube and bigger trannies.  Then I tried adding a gain stage to an old airline amp.  Darn if that thing didn't start squealing, motorboating, and behaving very badly.  It's not quite as simple as adding more. 

Also keep in mind that each of those 12AX7 bottles have 2 halves.  6 of them could represent 12 gain stages.  That is unlikely though.  Most likely there are 2 or three in the preamp section building gain for multiple channels and the rest are tone stack recovery, EFX loop, reverb, Phase inverter, etc. 

Good distortion harmonics takes a choir of tubes each singing an assigned part.  If one singer gets too loud and starts singing over everyone else or starts to get off key, it makes the whole choir sound crappy.  The builder is like a choir director.  He auditions each tube for his choir and assigns them specific parts, then gets them to all sing together in perfect harmony.   The whole is greater than the sum of its parts if done right.  If done wrong you end up with an uncontrollable grunting and squealing pig.

Thanks BH. When I finally figure out the whole picture I definitely want to build reverb into the plan, so I guess there’s that aspect of the design as well. So really, as far as pre amp gain stages, three ax7’s is plenty?

[tubeswell]

Soldano  SLO100


(Edit: If you type that fast on an iPhone, it autocorrects to ‘Sold another SLO100’)

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Soldano  SLO100


(Edit: If you type that fast on an iPhone, it autocorrects to ‘Sold another SLO100’)

What’s funny is I swear I have that schematic in my file!!!

Thanks TS

[1blueheron]

Is it really necessary? Do you HAVE to have it? I’ve seen heads with up to six 12ax7’s and four or five power tubes, and I’d imagine they’re powerful and produce lots of gain, but why would you need to add a gate if your goal is high gain? Sorry for my ignorance.

My first thoughts about amp design were along the same lines as yours.  Want more gain? just add another 12AX7,  More power, just ass another output tube and bigger trannies.  Then I tried adding a gain stage to an old airline amp.  Darn if that thing didn't start squealing, motorboating, and behaving very badly.  It's not quite as simple as adding more. 

Also keep in mind that each of those 12AX7 bottles have 2 halves.  6 of them could represent 12 gain stages.  That is unlikely though.  Most likely there are 2 or three in the preamp section building gain for multiple channels and the rest are tone stack recovery, EFX loop, reverb, Phase inverter, etc. 

Good distortion harmonics takes a choir of tubes each singing an assigned part.  If one singer gets too loud and starts singing over everyone else or starts to get off key, it makes the whole choir sound crappy.  The builder is like a choir director.  He auditions each tube for his choir and assigns them specific parts, then gets them to all sing together in perfect harmony.   The whole is greater than the sum of its parts if done right.  If done wrong you end up with an uncontrollable grunting and squealing pig.

Thanks BH. When I finally figure out the whole picture I definitely want to build reverb into the plan, so I guess there’s that aspect of the design as well. So really, as far as pre amp gain stages, three ax7’s is plenty?

You will have to let your ears be your guide.  I am in no way saying this is the "best high gain circuit" or "best metal amp" but just as an example, the Orange Micro Dark Terror uses 3 12AX7> EL84  and it is popular among some metalists. Here is an idea what it sounds like if you aren't familiar with it.  (keep in mind they are playing pretty hot pickups)  Skip to about 9:30 to cut to the chase without all the nonsense.

[jammied]

I'm counting 4 12ax7's and that is the normal count on the gain channel of high gain amps. When you see a tube farm high gain amp. You have to take into account dedicated clean channel tubes and tube buffered effects loops.


There are some Laney schematics in the hoffman schematic pages.


Reverb is probably going to have to be of the pan variety.


A cascaded bassman 100 will way out gain most production amps!! And is kinda what the boogis and orange amps are based off of. They were/are based on cascade modded blacface/silverface fender amps


Well I'm trying to remember what fender amp maybe one without reverb but had vibrato?
 
If you think 3 12ax7's isn't enough. Do the one wire cascade mod to a 1959slp and get ready to play

[SILVERGUN]

Soldano  SLO100

Some good reading here:
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/classic-circuits/soldano-slo/


The Bogner Ubershall is also worth a look. For high gain metal I like the inclusion of a resonance control instead of just presence, especially when you get into detuned guitars with extra strings on the bass side.

[imgumby001]

Is it really necessary? Do you HAVE to have it? I’ve seen heads with up to six 12ax7’s and four or five power tubes, and I’d imagine they’re powerful and produce lots of gain, but why would you need to add a gate if your goal is high gain? Sorry for my ignorance.

My first thoughts about amp design were along the same lines as yours.  Want more gain? just add another 12AX7,  More power, just ass another output tube and bigger trannies.  Then I tried adding a gain stage to an old airline amp.  Darn if that thing didn't start squealing, motorboating, and behaving very badly.  It's not quite as simple as adding more. 

Also keep in mind that each of those 12AX7 bottles have 2 halves.  6 of them could represent 12 gain stages.  That is unlikely though.  Most likely there are 2 or three in the preamp section building gain for multiple channels and the rest are tone stack recovery, EFX loop, reverb, Phase inverter, etc. 

Good distortion harmonics takes a choir of tubes each singing an assigned part.  If one singer gets too loud and starts singing over everyone else or starts to get off key, it makes the whole choir sound crappy.  The builder is like a choir director.  He auditions each tube for his choir and assigns them specific parts, then gets them to all sing together in perfect harmony.   The whole is greater than the sum of its parts if done right.  If done wrong you end up with an uncontrollable grunting and squealing pig.

Thanks BH. When I finally figure out the whole picture I definitely want to build reverb into the plan, so I guess there’s that aspect of the design as well. So really, as far as pre amp gain stages, three ax7’s is plenty?

You will have to let your ears be your guide.  I am in no way saying this is the "best high gain circuit" or "best metal amp" but just as an example, the Orange Micro Dark Terror uses 3 12AX7> EL84  and it is popular among some metalists. Here is an idea what it sounds like if you aren't familiar with it.  (keep in mind they are playing pretty hot pickups)  Skip to about 9:30 to cut to the chase without all the nonsense.

Ha! That’s funny BH, my go to practice amp for almost two years now is a micro dark w/a mullard 12ax7 I pulled from one of my Hammond AO’s. While not exactly the same, it the amp that pulled my interest back over to tube tone.

I'm counting 4 12ax7's and that is the normal count on the gain channel of high gain amps. When you see a tube farm high gain amp. You have to take into account dedicated clean channel tubes and tube buffered effects loops.


There are some Laney schematics in the hoffman schematic pages.


Reverb is probably going to have to be of the pan variety.


A cascaded bassman 100 will way out gain most production amps!! And is kinda what the boogis and orange amps are based off of. They were/are based on cascade modded blacface/silverface fender amps


Well I'm trying to remember what fender amp maybe one without reverb but had vibrato?
 
If you think 3 12ax7's isn't enough. Do the one wire cascade mod to a 1959slp and get ready to play

I wonder then if I shouldn’t just copy a fender schematic someone modded for evil purposes????

Soldano  SLO100

Some good reading here:
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/classic-circuits/soldano-slo/


The Bogner Ubershall is also worth a look. For high gain metal I like the inclusion of a resonance control instead of just presence, especially when you get into detuned guitars with extra strings on the bass side.

That’s an interesting idea! I NEVER use super thick gauge strings as now that I’m post 40 my hands have a hard enough time fretting rapid succession note patterns. Plus, I’m of the tiny(read girl sized) hand variant, so seven and eight strings are out for me. But that being said, now that you say that, I like that idea as well. I’ll have to give that some serious thought!!

[SILVERGUN]

If you enjoy knowing why read the -Frequency response shaping via feedback section- here:
https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/what-is-negative-feedback

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I ALWAYS want to know why!!! Thank you so much sir!!!!!

[jammied]

Also look at something like the vox top boost. For resonance.  Been around for years and years.


99% of all this stems from amps that have been around forever. Most all of the amp manufactures pick and choose parts of different amps. Over drive specials and the likes also use similar techniques to dial in late in the circuit harmonics. That's been around forever.


Take a look at some of the hi-fi amps so.e of these techniques come from the hi-fi realm