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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp  (Read 6505 times)

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Offline RadioComm

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Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« on: February 26, 2021, 09:57:08 am »
Hello,

Getting a negative voltage (-16V) on the plate of one the 6l6's of my push pull amp (two tubes total). Other plate at 449.
Swapped power tubes out for another pair, still same issue. Pin 4 and 5 have same voltage across both tubes.
Not too sure where to go from here...

Thanks.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2021, 10:06:19 am »
Be specific. What are the voltages on pins 3, 4, 5, and 8 of each tube. Looking for eight numbers. Don't just say they are the same.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline shooter

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2021, 10:07:52 am »
fixed bias? cathode biased? schematic?
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2021, 10:27:04 am »
Absolutely. This is a Silvertone 1484. I've attached the schematic.

V7 -- Pin3: 448V - Pin4: 322V    - Pin5: -30.8V - Pin8: 0.7 mV
V8 -- Pin3: -17V  - Pin4: 321.5V - Pin5: -30.9V - Pin8: 0.5mV

Thanks again.

Offline dude

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2021, 10:48:27 am »
Bad 6L6...? Wrong wiring?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2021, 10:57:15 am »
Bad 6L6...? Wrong wiring?
Swapped out the tubes for new ones. Still same issue. Stock amp from the mid 60's, so don't believe bad wiring.

I was thinking a socket re-tension, but I don't see how that would generate a negative voltage. Easy enough thought to try. And same thing with a bad OT, not sure why the negative voltage.

Get the same negative voltage on both set of tubes that I tried.

Thanks.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2021, 11:01:39 am »
Pull V8 and recheck voltage on pin 3. If still -17v disconnect OT wire and recheck voltage on pin 3. If voltage is now 0V, then the OT has failed. It was pretty common for that tiny OT to fail back in the '60s.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2021, 11:22:45 am »
if you end up needing a replacement silvertone 1484/85 OT - weber sells a clone.

https://tedweber.com/wot1484/


--pete

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2021, 12:01:06 pm »
Thanks Sluckey. Pulled V8 without disconnecting OT, and got 0V. Still bad OT?

Thanks Pete for the link. It OT is needed, will definitely get it from Weber.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2021, 12:26:50 pm »
Quote
Still bad OT?
yes. You can double check by measuring resistance between primary CT and each plate lead. Should be about 85Ω. The lead going to V8 is probably open.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2021, 02:08:09 pm »
Quote
Still bad OT?
yes. You can double check by measuring resistance between primary CT and each plate lead. Should be about 85Ω. The lead going to V8 is probably open.

And Sluckey hits another home run! One plate had 83 ohms and the other 0. Thanks again Sir.

And thanks Pete for the link. Just ordered the repro.

Take care all.

Offline PRR

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2021, 03:07:09 pm »
> One plate had 83 ohms and the other 0.

ZERO??

More likely "OL"? (OverLoad)
https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/001/008/medium800/instruments_wavetekopen.jpg
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 03:09:59 pm by PRR »

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2021, 03:38:06 pm »
 :l2: No no... not "ZERO??" ohms, it was open.

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 11:12:25 am »
Hi,

Received and replaced the OT, but am now having a low volume problem with the amp. I've attached the schematic at the beginning of the thread.

-----------------------------------------------
Power amp tubes
-----------------------------------------------
       | Pin 3  |   Pin 4 |  Pin 5  |  Pin 8  |
-----------------------------------------------
   V7  |  438V  | 323.2V  | -30.85V | 1.1mV   |
-----------------------------------------------
   V8  |  437V  |  323V   | -30.88V | 0.8mV   |
-----------------------------------------------

B+: 437V    Bias: -31.7V

So voltages in the power amp section are low, but generally look healthy. Don't think the issue is there.

-----------------------------------------------
Pre-amp Tubes
-----------------------------------------------
       | Pin 1  |   Pin 3 |  Pin 6  |  Pin 8  |
-----------------------------------------------
   V1  | 101.5V |  0.9V   |  98.1V  |  0.9V   |
-----------------------------------------------
   V2  |  88.3V |  0.9V   |  87.6V  |  0.9V   |
-----------------------------------------------
   V3  | 205.5V | 112.6V  |  -0.9V  |  1.3mV  |
-----------------------------------------------

On the 6CG7 Phase inverter (V3), pins 6 & 8 are out of whack
Replaced with another 6CG7, same issue with pins 6 & 8
Both 6CG7 I tried were not tested, had bought them both at a Ham Fest when the dinosaurs still roamed the earth, but have ordered newer and tested ones just in case.
If still same issue with the new 6CG7, maybe the 5/10/20 uF 450V capacitor can (C25 a/b/c) could be at fault...

All voltages in the Reverb/Tremolo section were out of whack, again pointing the finger at the multi cap can.

Am currently looking for a multi cap can if the newer 6CG7 don't resolve the issue. Has anybody found any 5/10/20 uF 450V cap cans? Thanks.

I also have the following question: If I have the tremolo and reverb turned off, would it still affect the preamp section that would lead to a loss in power? Right now I've really been focused on troubleshooting the pre/power amp section.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 12:26:51 pm by RadioComm »

Offline shooter

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 11:41:05 am »
Quote
0.8mV
the tubes not conducting, I believe a typical 6V6 runs ~~~ 30mA, so I would expect at least that for 6L6


EDIT:  did you install 1 ohm resistors pin 8 to ground?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 11:43:18 am by shooter »
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 11:49:05 am »
Thanks shooter for the reply. No. Did not install 1 ohm resistors. Using an old groove tube bias probe to measure. Amp is stock minus OT and 3 prong cord. Did try two pairs of 6l6's though, and had same voltage on pin 8 on both sockets... Could the issue with phase inverter/cap can cause the low voltages on pin 8?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 12:32:00 pm by RadioComm »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2021, 11:52:46 am »
Pin 6 connects to nothing for a 6L6. What voltage is on pin 5?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2021, 11:57:12 am »
Oops. Typos. Cut and paste from the pre-amp. Sorry. The V7/V8 table Pin 6 column should read Pin 5. Just updated the table. Also updated first two columns to pin 3 and 4.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 12:00:43 pm by RadioComm »

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2021, 12:43:13 pm »
It's acting as though R34 is open.

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2021, 12:49:29 pm »
Thanks 2deaf. Would much rather have it be a resistor. Will check R34.

Offline shooter

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2021, 12:50:43 pm »
I'd recommend putting in 1 ohmers so you know for sure.do a quick check;power OFF, discharged, PA tubes out.  ohm from the tube side of socket, pin 8 to ground.
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2021, 01:21:55 pm »
I'd recommend putting in 1 ohmers so you know for sure.do a quick check;power OFF, discharged, PA tubes out.  ohm from the tube side of socket, pin 8 to ground.
Pin 8 to ground measures 0.1 - 0.3 ohms. Meter fluctuates, doesn't settle.

It's acting as though R34 is open.
Still working on removing R34 to measure. De-soldering with a 1484 is like working with a spaghetti dish... Plus the leads are around the eyelets several times. Don't know of a way to measure without removing...

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2021, 01:42:41 pm »
Still working on removing R34 to measure. De-soldering with a 1484 is like working with a spaghetti dish... Plus the leads are around the eyelets several times. Don't know of a way to measure without removing...

Turn the power off and remove the 6CG7.  Then measure R34.  It could also be that there is a lack of continuity from R34 to the tube socket.

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2021, 02:09:31 pm »
Still working on removing R34 to measure. De-soldering with a 1484 is like working with a spaghetti dish... Plus the leads are around the eyelets several times. Don't know of a way to measure without removing...

Turn the power off and remove the 6CG7.  Then measure R34.  It could also be that there is a lack of continuity from R34 to the tube socket.
Thank you! Got me before I went through the hassle. For continuity, did a continuity test from underneath the socket to the lead of the R34 connected to pin6, and it shorted. When measuring ohms from pin 6 to the power input of the resistor, it was open. I have some 100K 1/2 watts, and will replace the resistor. Thanks so much. It will be one more thing out of the way. Fingered crossed. Thanks again.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2021, 02:17:14 pm »
I know it's a challenge working inside a 1484. This is not meant to be a permanent fix, but rather a quick way to patch a new resistor in. Simply tack solder the new resistor across the failed resistor. If voltages come alive on the tube (and I'm betting they will) then actually replace the resistor. It's easier if you cut the resistor leads as close to the resistor body as you can. Then deal with neatly removing the individual leads one at a time. Finally install the new resistor, making a good mechanical connection with each lead and finally solder in place.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline RadioComm

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Re: Negative Low Voltage on 6L6 Plate Push Pull Amp
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2021, 08:28:55 am »
I know it's a challenge working inside a 1484. This is not meant to be a permanent fix, but rather a quick way to patch a new resistor in. Simply tack solder the new resistor across the failed resistor. If voltages come alive on the tube (and I'm betting they will) then actually replace the resistor. It's easier if you cut the resistor leads as close to the resistor body as you can. Then deal with neatly removing the individual leads one at a time. Finally install the new resistor, making a good mechanical connection with each lead and finally solder in place.

Thanks for the advice sluckey. I did cut the leads, leaving the entire lead. But didn't bother removing the leads. Just soldered the new resistor right to the old leads. Seems mechanically sound. I keep my solder iron at around 730 degrees, don't know if that's too hot, but I always use a heat sink clamp for the component. This resistor was soldered directly to the very 'unique' multi-section cap can. Didn't want to risk it. I've attached a couple of pics.

Still working on removing R34 to measure. De-soldering with a 1484 is like working with a spaghetti dish... Plus the leads are around the eyelets several times. Don't know of a way to measure without removing...

Turn the power off and remove the 6CG7.  Then measure R34.  It could also be that there is a lack of continuity from R34 to the tube socket.
Thank you! Got me before I went through the hassle. For continuity, did a continuity test from underneath the socket to the lead of the R34 connected to pin6, and it shorted. When measuring ohms from pin 6 to the power input of the resistor, it was open. I have some 100K 1/2 watts, and will replace the resistor. Thanks so much. It will be one more thing out of the way. Fingered crossed. Thanks again.
I now have volume! Thanks 2deaf for pointing to R4. That did the trick. Also a lesson learned for me, when finding a bad voltage, don't trace through out the entire schematic looking for potential problem points, start with the closest component to the bad voltage. Especially if that component is the single resistor coming from a voltage supply into the plate. In hind sight seems obvious now.

And thanks again sluckey/Pete for the OT help.

The amp is working, including the reverb. Tremolo not. But I can't remember the last time I used a tremolo. I think I was fifteen, and just learned how to play gimme shelter. It was the only effect I had. So I really won't miss it.
Next project for this amp is a bias control so that I can up the bias to spec.

Once again thanks to all for the help. This forum really rocks!

 


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