Attenuator questions? Progressive attenuation?

[walkman]

Hi all,

Is there such a thing as an attenuator that ‘progressively attenuates’  so that up to a certain output level there is no attenuation then the attenuation increases to a set output limit?

This would be handy for keeping a ‘constant  or relatively similar’ volume level between a clean tone and an overdriven tone where this cannot be done with the use of channel or master volumes.

If this could only really be achieved through re-amping  then a way to boost low outputs to a set volume would also be great.

Maybe there is a clean tone from non master volume amp that you can only get with the volume low, but hen want to be able to run the amp cranked up for overdriven tones with out having to constantly be manually setting the overall level of attenuation or re-amp output.

The answer maybe  that’s the sound guys job or may be expensive or otherwise difficult to do or sell.

What do you say?

[tubeswell]

Hi all,

Is there such a thing as an attenuator that ‘progressively attenuates’  so that up to a certain output level there is no attenuation then the attenuation increases to a set output limit?

This would be handy for keeping a ‘constant  or relatively similar’ volume level between a clean tone and an overdriven tone where this cannot be done with the use of channel or master volumes.

Are you thinking of a compressor?

[walkman]

Possibly but perhaps without the feeling of squishyness  that compression in a pedal or the amp can give... but post OT to limit the overall volume output.

Yes I guess if you were recording an amp you could put a compressor on the mic input.

So I have a couple of different iso boxes an axtrak and a jet city, but unfortunately no mic compressors to mess around with only an aphex punch factory compresson pedal. Then I could revamp this signal into a power amp...

I’m wondering if there are any amp attenuators / loadboxes like the THD hot plate or Weber mass etc with this kind of feature this ‘feature’ .

Yes so a power amp attenuator /compressor.. do these exist ?

[jordan86]

There’s is a crazy attenuator I’ve used with built in eq. Even has some other fx and tone shaping. It’s called a Kemper Profiling Amp. :)

Im half kidding, sort of. Digital may be the most practical option there though.

If you want to half dip your toe in the digital world the OX box may work. You could dial presets for your different tones and save all of them in the OX, with different levels of attenuation possibly. Changing on the fly may be difficult though. May be a midi option that changes the OX and your amp drive/channels all at once?

Or may be other brands of reactive load boxes with IR’s and attenuator? Boss, Suhr, Torpedo?

[jordan86]

Other option could be just an EQ pedal right before your amp? Line 6 has EQ’s, and they often have an expression pedal option. Heel is one setting, toe the other. Could set your minimum setting EQ tone and no attenuation. Then set your max eq setting with global eq dialed back the appropriate number of dB. Then you just adjust somewhere between heel / toe.

Numerous digital eq options as well that can do presets. It would affect the front end of your amps though.
I still think a reactive load box with attenuator + IR may be best. 

[walkman]

So why do we use attenuators ... to keep the volume of our raging amp at acceptable levels for the room your playing in with out loosing ‘tone’ of the cranked beast ....or that’s kinda the story.

So that great if your whole piece of music is played with the same overdriven tone.

Regardless of reducing your pick attack or turning the volume pot on the guitar down etc. there will be a volume loss that may be quite significant. Obviously if  the dynamics of the music require loud and quite sections then there is no issue.

However if you’d like a clean tone to be as loud as your overdriven edge of meltdown tone, then if you are using a standard attenuator like the hot plate etc then you will need to reach over to it he attenuator and dial back the attenuation for your clean tone.

So with something like the OX the digital part is separate from the attenuator part and any effects in that section don’t go back th a directly attached guitar speaker cab. Not sure if this is also the case for the BOSS tube amp expander.

EQ or compressor in before the amp input won’t work the same way.  Dual channel amps with master volumes for each channel could be an answer though the need then for an attenuator is less and the gain tone more about preamp overdrive rather than driving the power amp.

Maybe a compressor in between load box line-out and reamp ? 

[Mason]

There are attenuators with foot switchable attenuation levels. The fryette power station 100 can do this, and I think the bad cat unleash as well. It's not exactly what you're looking for but it solves the problem of varying volumes when going between clean and dirty. I think the weber attenuators offer foot swithcable bypass, which would be a bit harder to get the volumes right but could also work.

[PRR]

Maybe not use the Power amp as your distortion? There are pedals......

[walkman]

Pedals would work... so I guess the answer is that there are no attenuators for tube guitar amps that dynamically / progressively attenuate. They all have fixed attenuation levels or must be manually set in someway.

Reamp solutions with a load box like the Unleash or the PowerStation have the ability switch between output levels of there own poweramp.

So theoretically you could rig up a db meter or other device to sense  volume or power from the re-amp poweramp and then change the volume on re-amp power amp to bring the volume to a set level. This may be tricky or not work well, or not be needed as there are other solutions to the scenario of matching overdrive to clean tone volume.

What I’ m trying to understand is from a high level or in-principle, is there a way to do this in an ‘attenuator’ that doesn’t involve acting as a load box then re-amping?

I read some discussion somewhere about pedals between the amp out put and speaker ... obviously you can’t do that with ordinary guitar pedals. And why would you want too?

However , there is speaker driven reverb and of course negative feedback that act off the poweramp output.
These then get sent back in to previous stages of the amp to affect the output.

Can other ‘functions’ be driven off the a poweramp output ...  i see there are some discussions regarding light bulbs as attenuators ... could this not form some part of an optical compressor between the power amp and speaker ?

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many-guitars-so-little-time/1288711-amp-attenuator-light-bulb-quot-compressor-quot-setup.html

The above post would suggest is not a reliable, though there may be other ways to do this using a fan or something else I don’t know, just thinking outloud and hoping someone who does have the knowledge can explain where that train of though goes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/6uizoh/anyone_use_light_bulb_compression_on_guitar_amps/

[brewdude]

Maybe you need a sound man to mix and switch it for you like Keith Richards.

[walkman]

Hey maybe I am Keef (... maybe not)

[jordan86]

I misread your first post. Don’t know where I picked up that you wanted an EQ function. My bad.

Yeah you’re really wanting a reactive limiter of sorts. The compressor suggestion was on the right track but it would need to be post amp. Something where the clean would be unattenuated but attenuation would increase with additional gain/volume. I don’t anything that does that.

Depending on your amp and if it has an fx loop maybe you could put a limiter or volume control there. So front end would see same amount of gain.

[PRR]

The other thing you may be wanting is Power Scaling(TM). Variable B+ in the amplifier. One way it is 100 Watts clean. The other way it is 10 watts before it flat-lines. So a dynamic 0-50watt line plays "clean", and a stroke-stroke death-riff plays "dirty" at a similar level.

[walkman]

Yes that might be the kind of thing I’m after... is that the way PowerScaling (TM) works or does it need some kind of reworking to ‘automate’ it to switch between the 100w and 10w setting or could a variable control be motorised in some way?

[d95err]

I can’t see that some kind of automatic volume compensation (except using s compressor) is possible though, regardless of the method used for volume reduction.

You would need a footswitch or pedal to change the volume/attenuation.

In my Plexi build, I added a foot-switchable fixed PPIMV set to redice volume by about 3-4dB. I have it on for rhythm and switch it out for solos to get a volume boost. Simple, but effective for live use.

Powerscaling can be used as an alternative to attenuators. If you want to make it switchable or variable while playing, it gets very complex.