What to build?

[CharacterZero]

I am trying to decide on an amp to build.  I have built a Weber 6a14 (Princeton type) amp that I like.  Subsequently I have ended up with various pedals that I also like.  But I would like to build something that is different and has a stronger lead type sound with sustain and some feedback.  Not crazy though.  And I want it to take pedals pretty well.  I am not really needing to have a bunch of relays going on, nor am I really ready to take all of that on yet.  I have been looking at some of Tubenit's designs and would like some advice.  I play jazz, blues and some rock in my living room full time:) on Telecasters.  I would also like to build something that I can tweak after getting down a basic design.  I have a Weber 404248 OT that is 40 watts and pretty versatile.  I also have a 12F150 speaker, but could see myself changing that eventually if necessary. 

I have been considering the Texas Raptor or a Matchless Lighting type of thing, but have never played anything like that and from the clips of Matchless amps, I always think that that they sound stiff and I want something more liquid and organic like.  It also seems close to the Top Hat Deluxe amp that does not at all seem stiff on the UTubes...  though I have read on this forum that it's design is a tone sucker and should be augmented.

I have also looked at some of Tubenit's Blues versions and variations on the Tweed Overdrive Special like his T-Lite or the 5879 Blues amp which seems to be a Bassman type of amp.  This seems like it could be a good starting point for an amp that could be further tweaked, which I like.

I am open to any ideas.  Thanks for your input.
Tyler

[jordan86]

When you say organic lead with sustain, my mind goes to Marshall Superlead. That won’t do too much jazz though :)

A step down from there would be a tweed bassman in my book. It could do jazz, blues, and rock. Easy platform to mod. Could add a master to keep volume down, or look at a 6V6 version.

Maybe something in the dumble ODS vein could do that as well?

[CharacterZero]

Yes, I have thought about some sort of Tweed Bassman derivative a lot, especially with the possibility of using 6v6s most of the time.  I guess I am wondering how close or far off the Tweed Overdrive Special and the T-lite come to each other tonally (sp?).
Also, and this is where I Sam a bit naive, how much does a D_mble tone stack simply take the place of a decent pedal board?  In other words, doesn’t the D_mble thing just replace the need for drive pedals?  And how do they interact with time based effects? 
Perhaps a simpler preamp would be better for me?  I’ve seen some two channel designs with more Bassman and Marshall channels.  How effective are these designs?  What are some popular tweaks for a 5f6a type design? 
Thank you for your patience and input.
Tyler

[SILVERGUN]

What are some popular tweaks for a 5f6a type design? 

It doesn't need any 
Original '59 Fender Bassman Amp - YouTube

[SILVERGUN]

I agree with jordan86 that a Dumble style build sounds like what you are looking for.
Some of tubenits' designs are loosely based on D style amps.

2 options you have are to either follow his documentaion and build one by getting a board from Doug, OR go out on your own and choose a Dumble design to clone.
There is a lot of this going on over at the amp garage and most of the mystery has been taken out of it.

When I initially asked tubenit what the most singing/sustain'y amp he built was, he replied by pointing me towards the Tweed Overdrive Special. (This was around 2013)
Everything you need to know about building that amp is here:
Tweed Overdrive Special (el34world.com)

[luthierwnc]

You could do worse than a Fender Brown Deluxe 6G3.  It punches well over its weight, it's pretty simple and parts are obtainable.  FWIW, Skip

[dwinstonwood]

I agree, the 6G3 is a great, affordable project. I built one last year. I used the Mojotone chassis and faceplates, a Mather cab, and a Warehouse G12C/S speaker.

[luthierwnc]

On the 6G3; a reverb or delay pedal and maybe something for dirt and you're done.  Leonc does something really interesting with his by taking a feed off the speaker into a processor, into a little SS amp and splitting ambient effects into stereo.  I did the same thing for my music room and it works great.  On another vid he gives the exact set-up.  Cheap too.

If the reason you need another build is more power.  You might have a look at Rob Robinette's page with his Blackface variants. 


FWIW, I've built seven or eight Dumble-styled rigs and can't really recommend that as a second build.  There are a lot of things that can go mediocre -- which is way worse than going wrong because you don't know you need to fix it.  The one I kept is below.  Very cool.  Very unforgiving.  Tubenit's T-light will get you some of that flavor with a bit simpler build. 

Finally, and way out there; one of my favorite amps (which I still have, which is the acid test for me), I built a Dr. Z Route 66 using 5881 tubes and incorporating an active buffer Dumbleator loop.  It is still only three miniature tubes and the power section.  Short runs.  Parts you can get anywhere.  You use the Return control on the loop as the MV.  I've got mine in a 2X10 combo.  I used a 5879 in the front end since I was adding gain in the loop.  That schematic is also attached.

Enjoy, Skip
 

[Keppy]

FWIW, I've built seven or eight Dumble-styled rigs and can't really recommend that as a second build.

Can confirm. Tons of parts, you really need skills & confidence to tackle one of those. Some of the simpler Dumble-ish builds that just borrow the tone stack and skip all the switching are probably fine, but stay away from the actual Dumble circuits until you're solid. Although, if you think Matchless is stiff, you might not be into the Dumble thing anyway.

[CharacterZero]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for the replies.  I definitely appreciate your incite.  First off, dwinstonwood, that 6G3 looks awesome!  Nice build.  I definitely want to build a 6G3 at some point.  Maybe this is that point? 

I am kind of thinking that I am not really ready to build something like a Dumble type build.  While I have built pedals and gotten my Princeton Reverb pretty much where I want it, I think some of the Dumble stuff seems a out of my reach right now for a scratch build.  Also, after listening to a number of different video clips, I am not really sure that is what I am looking for.  I am not saying that a Matchless Lightning type of thing IS too stiff, I just wondered given the clips that I have heard.  I don't really play country.  The pain of living a small Midwestern town = limited access to actual examples.  Anyway, building something is really the motivation.  With the Princeton I have sweet, midscooped sounds covered.  It doesn't really distort much when overdriven.  Even with an OCD in front, it sounds like a Princeton with a boost pedal, or unhappy dirt.  I don't really want to change the character of it because it is great for my jazz stuff. 

I want to build a combo or a head of something that sounds more modern and rocks a little more and has some immediacy.  I have heard a lot out of the Komet 19 type of thing that I like, but I wonder if it is almost too touch sensitive from the videos of it.  But I like how it goes from a nice clean to pretty amazing lead tone, especially by adjusting the attack and the guitar volume. 

So then I was wondering about the Texas Raptor type build which Tubenit describes as a Marshall Typology, but it also looks quite similar to a Lightning with 6v6.  Or am I wrong?  I realize this is not quite the same as Komet 19, which seems like a lower powered Trainwreck Express type of build (from what I can gather).  But the Lightning is also quite similar to the TW Rocket.  Again, I have never played any of these....ugh.  But, since I have the 40 watt OT with the Primary 4 Secondary 2,4,8 - I was thinking that I had some options.  I see that Tubenit uses (on the Texas Raptor) the Hammond 1650F which has a Primary of 7.8, but that is pretty close to an 8 to 8 ohm match.  Or would an issue that I am not thinking of?  Not sure that the speaker that I have will be good, as it is basically a great speaker for a Deluxe Reverb.  But there is always an excuse to buy another 

Skip, I also appreciate the Route 66 that you mentioned.  I will investigate that more.  I know Dr. Z makes some pretty awesome circuits.  Perhaps that will get me in the realm of what I am thinking.  I suppose with the Dumbleator it accomodates all kinds of pedals?  I like to mess with delays and loops, reverb, univibe and of course....overdrive pedals.   
Thanks again for the input.

Tyler

[tubenit]

I am not trying to talk you into any particular build.  Just responding to your Texas Raptor comment as many forum members are not familiar with this schematic. I built the Texas Raptor for my son some years ago. He still has it and likes the amp very much.


I think a V1 5879 version of this would be a very touch sensitive amp based on my experience using 5879 V1 tubes in the past.


I added another version for active FX using a mosfet cathode follower and adding a PPIMV  (post phase invertor master volume)   


Posting simply for your consideration.


with respect, Tubenit

[luthierwnc]

CharactorZero;
The loop in my 66 build is primarily there for its own sound and maybe a little reverb.  With two gain controls it is effectively a boost at the end of the signal rather than at the front.  That's why I used really small bright caps rather than the big ones in the original Dumbleator circuit.  Those original caps help balance long runs of capacitance-losing signal cables from the amp to the loop to the effects and back.  Somewhere on YouTube is a Robben Ford concert in Northern California shot from behind the band showing long cables to and from the outboard Dumbleator.  He really nails the song too -- Loving Cup, IIRC.  sh 

[CharacterZero]

Robben Ford is awesome! 
So from what I can gather (forgive my naivety), one can get a sound like that video (roughly)with:
4 cascaded preamp gain stages tied to a variety of power amp sections not maxed out (Dumble style)….

Or, two hot rodded gain stages + cathode follower (impedance reducing) + PI into a power amp that is running hot (Trainwreck style).

Does one style have more touch sensitivity?  Does this relate to the presence of a cathode follower? 

Does the overdrive and saturation come on the same in both, whereas the Dumble style can achieve that at lower volumes?

Would one style more effectively handle pedals than the other?  Meaning that they don’t get muddy or overly saturated.  Or is the whole point of those amps to avoid needing any external preamp gain?

Would something like the Texas Raptor or a 6v6 Lightning or a 6v6 Plexi get anywhere close to the realm of clean to that style of overdrive in the video?

Thanks for your input,
Tyler

[tubenit]

Those are reasonable questions to seek answers to. 

Having said that, those are complicated questions because the definitions of the words and expressions may mean something different to different individuals.

I also think differing perceptions would end up giving you different (and possible conflicting) answers to those questions even from experienced amp builders and guitarists.

I think watching videos of the amps you're considering OR hearing them live or playing thru one will give you the better more accurate information you need to make a decision.

I will attempt to offer answers for your consideration on  some of your questions:

So from what I can gather (forgive my naivety), one can get a sound like that video (roughly)with:4 cascaded preamp gain stages tied to a variety of power amp sections not maxed out (Dumble style)….

I would not presume that to be the case at all.  Mesa Boogie amps or Cornford amps with 4 gain states do NOT sound anything like a Dumble amp to my ears.  Many of the Dumble amps models  don't sound like the other Dumble amps. Guitarists, guitars, speakers and cabs all play a factor.

The most often response I see over the internet regarding amps that take pedals well is  that amps which are mid scooped and clean are often thought of as good pedal amps.  It's not uncommon to see individuals mention Fender  AB763 amps.   In contrast(like the Dumble amps), many overdriven amps seem to emphasize boosting the mids to get that overdriven tone.

I would say the Texas Raptor doesn't sound anything like Robben Ford's Dumble amp.  Not even close.

With respect, Tubenit






 

[luthierwnc]

I couldn't make Robben's rig sound like Robben!
And if you are like me and mostly make these things for fun, when or what you make really doesn't matter because you will eventually get to your sound.  The problem with a full-blown Dumble clone is that these things will make a lot of noises -- not all of them good.  Not plug-and-play.  Sound-checks take forever.  Sound guys will hate you.  You want them big and loud with clean power tubes.  Clean speakers too and you have to air them out.  Clams ring-out forever.  Not strat friendly after about #81. 

In the canon of those amplifiers there are five iterations.  The first would be the Lowell George/David Lindley style.  The second gets more complex.  The schematic I posted is based on that.  I think Steve Farris played one of those in the heyday of Mr. Mister.  Third is somewhere past that with Robben's #102.  Fourth is the HRM era when Dumble started putting a tone-stack on the overdrive circuit.  All the while they got cleaner and more precise with very stiff power supplies.  Later amps had totem-pole series caps on all five power nodes with no sag at all.  Somewhere in there are the SSS monsters.  It's all on the Ampgarage.

You could do a lot worse than one of Tubenit's designs.  I've made a couple and really like them.  sh
Below is my take on #102 with an internal loop.  It gets crowded in there.


 

[tubenit]

Below is my take on #102 with an internal loop.  It gets crowded in there.

Remarkably well done!  I think that is one of the neater Dumble clones that I've seen.


With respect, Tubenit

[luthierwnc]

Thanks!  This is the one I kept:

[CharacterZero]

Luthierwnc and Tubenit, thanks for your input.  Those Dumbles look a great!  I would love to get to that level of build quality someday.  I have learned a lot from this website and especially your work Tubenit!  I realize that a design like the Raptor is not going to sound like a Dumble. 
You guys have given me some things to think about.

And if you are like me and mostly make these things for fun, when or what you make really doesn't matter because you will eventually get to your sound. 

I also appreciate this sentiment.  This is definitely what I want to do and to learn more.  I think that I just need to choose a design and make it and then see what it sounds like.  Then I can start tweaking it.
Thanks for all of your thoughts and patience.
Tyler