Hand Wired vs Printed Circuit Board.

[Grees01]

Hello everybody!!!
     So I have a assumption, then a question. The assumption is: That for the same tube amplifier circuit, a hand wired version on a turret board will sound better, respond better, than the same circuit laid out on a PCB. If that assumption is correct, then I have this question? Why is that true? If the assumption is not correct, then the question has no merit, please disregard. If you think that the assumption is correct and can explain why, can the explanation be backed up with some engineering, or science. FWIW, I'm not a fan of the printed circuit board, and like the old school way that it was done back in the 50-60's, but I'm at a loss for being able to explain why the vintage amps of the past sound so much better than the current production ones, with the exception of the hand wiring, and RCA was still making tubes here in the United States, and it was the vacuum tube era, and in general the quality of things produced these days is considerably worse than it was back at that time. Please shed some insight if you can.
Thank you..
G.

[TIMBO]

Hey mate, I'll get the ball rolling.....
There is SOOOOOO many for's and against.
A hand wired well built amp will sound great
A hand wired not so well built amp will sound crap
A well set out PCB with good components will sound great
A not well set out PCB with cheap components will sound crap.
Built both hand wired and PCB
 

[Latole]

Hey mate, I'll get the ball rolling.....
There is SOOOOOO many for's and against.
A hand wired well built amp will sound great
A hand wired not so well built amp will sound crap
A well set out PCB with good components will sound great
A not well set out PCB with cheap components will sound crap.
Built both hand wired and PCB
 

I agree.

[tubenit]

Printed circuit boards are often not as durable. 

Sometimes PCB boards limit the size of the components and therefore limit your choices of components.  There are some 2 watt plate resistors that I particularly like and to my ears they improve the tone of my amps.  However, they are close to the size of .0047 Orange Drop caps.  Something like that may not fit on a circuit board.

I've seen PCB boards where the traces have overheated and come loose. And when a connection is broken, it impacts the tone. 

Lastly, I think turret boards are MUCH easier to experiment on where you change components out and also to service.

with respect, Tubenit

[Latole]

Printed circuit boards are often not as durable. 

Sometimes PCB boards limit the size of the components and therefore limit your choices of components.  There are some 2 watt plate resistors that I particularly like and to my ears they improve the tone of my amps.  However, they are close to the size of .0047 Orange Drop caps.  Something like that may not fit on a circuit board.

I've seen PCB boards where the traces have overheated and come loose & if something is broken. And when a connection is broken, it impacts the tone. 
Lastly, I think turret boards are MUCH easier to experiment on where you change components out and also to service.

with respect, Tubenit

Because these PCB are cheap.

[sluckey]

If that assumption is correct, then I have this question?

The assumption is not correct.

[Latole]

I work on few old ( and powerful) tubes amps with printed circuits, they are like new.
Modern one look sometimes cheap

[Grees01]

If that assumption is correct, then I have this question?

The assumption is not correct.

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?
G.

[sluckey]

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?

Hmm. What do you think I think?   

[tubenit]

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?

Depends on the layout.  Overall, I would say yes and that it would be difficult to hear a significant difference IMO.  And I would anticipate consistency in tone.

However, I think you can line up 20 brand new Fender Deluxe Reverb re-issues and they will all sound very very similar.  I also think it's possible one or two may stand out as sounding "better" than the others. For the most part, I think they'd probably be indistinguishable in a band mix one from another.

I think you could buy twenty JJ 12AX7's and have one or two sound "better" than the rest. 

I built two effects pedals. To the best of my memory, I used identical component values and perhaps even the same brand of components overall.  One was a PCB board and the other was a vero board.  I think in a band mix, it would be almost impossible to tell them apart.  However,  I prefer one more than the other.  Ironically, a guitarist who is much better than I am prefers the other one more than the one I like.  And this is thru the same amp with same guitar.  I like the Vero board one the best.

I think you could get twenty brand new strats and have one or two that stand out above the others.  That could be explained by the wood?  That could be explained by pickups being wound differently somehow. 

Just an opinion and my 2 cents worth .............


With respect, Tubenit

[uki]

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?

you can line up 20 brand new Fender Deluxe Reverb re-issues and they will all sound very very similar.  I also think it's possible one or two may stand out as sounding "better" than the others. For the most part, I think they'd probably be indistinguishable in a band mix one from another.

I think you could buy twenty JJ 12AX7's and have one or two sound "better" than the rest. 

I built two effects pedals. To the best of my memory, I used identical component values and perhaps even the same brand of components overall.  One was a PCB board and the other was a vero board.  I think in a band mix, it would be almost impossible to tell them apart.  However,  I prefer one more than the other.  Ironically, a guitarist who is much better than I am prefers the other one more than the one I like.  And this is thru the same amp with same guitar.  I like the Vero board one the best.

I think you could get twenty brand new strats and have one or two that stand out above the others.  That could be explained by the wood?  That could be explained by pickups being wound differently somehow. 

That is very true! I used to work in a guitar factory "Dolphin" back in the 80s, I was responsible for the final setup of the guitars, and from 20 or so 2 or 3 would stand out, wood is a factor for sure, the pickups were made in the factory too, the number of winding could vary slightly, because it was not fully mechanized. But all of them would sound pretty much the same very little difference in tone.

I preffer hand wired, easier and cheaper to make the board, but that is me, I'm dirty cheap ! 

[Grees01]

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?

Hmm. What do you think I think?   

Well.... I think you would say yes it will sound the same.

[Grees01]

Printed circuit boards are often not as durable. 

Sometimes PCB boards limit the size of the components and therefore limit your choices of components.  There are some 2 watt plate resistors that I particularly like and to my ears they improve the tone of my amps.  However, they are close to the size of .0047 Orange Drop caps.  Something like that may not fit on a circuit board.

I've seen PCB boards where the traces have overheated and come loose. And when a connection is broken, it impacts the tone. 

Lastly, I think turret boards are MUCH easier to experiment on where you change components out and also to service.

with respect, Tubenit

Solid good information. Thank you Tubenit. Appreciate it.

[sluckey]

Okay. Thanks Slukey. Are you of the opinion that a well designed circuit board and a turret board both with the same components and same circuit will sound the same?

Hmm. What do you think I think?   

Well.... I think you would say yes it will sound the same.

Or I might just say...

The assumption is not correct.

[thetragichero]

for a high gain amp, a well-designed quality circuit board is better than a turret/eyelet board. a lot easier to ensure oscillation-free for the life of the amp
i think the reason the pcb, smd, and (in pedals) non-true bypass get drug through the mud in diy circles is because they are considerably harder to dowell. hacks like me can wrap their head around an eyelet board with flying leads (i lay out with masking tape and pen on top of vulcanized fiber board/g10) but i'd need to sit down and learn some software to properly design a pcb

[tubenit]

f

or a high gain amp, a well-designed quality circuit board is better than a turret/eyelet board. a lot easier to ensure oscillation-free for the life of the amp

Why would a well designed quality circuit board be better than a well designed turret/eyelet board?  What do you see about a PCB board that ensures fewer problems with oscillation?   


With respect, Tubenit

[kagliostro]

Why would a well designed quality circuit board be better than a well designed turret/eyelet board?

No reason to me







Franco

[PRR]

...What do you see about a PCB board that ensures fewer problems with oscillation?...

Not that it is less problematic to prototype. But once stable you can make a million all the same, without relying on worker consistency. Many guitar circuits, it is only 1/4" steps from smooth to hot to howl.

[sluckey]

Franco! That must be a woman amp.   

[kagliostro]

 
 

[Grees01]

Why would a well designed quality circuit board be better than a well designed turret/eyelet board?

No reason to me

Franco

Wow, that's really, really, nicely done, Beautiful craftsmanship Franco. Could you please post a video of you playing thru this amp. And is there a link somewhere to this amp design, and the build process? Congratulations for sure. Amp porn 

[sluckey]

Stay tuned. He's still trying to dial in that perfect tone.

[66Strat]

Franco! That must be a woman amp.   

Nice amp. Lotsa knobs! Mood Settings?

Stay tuned. He's still trying to dial in that perfect tone.

No doubt; A woman tone, but which one?

[bmccowan]

OMG, when I saw the title of the thread I knew what to expect. I think it depends on what flavor of capacitors populate the board. Sorry, just kidding. From my perspective, the sound quality can be the same, as stated by others. But I can more easily fix and modify point - point, turret, or eyelet board so that is my preference. I have modified and built some effects pedals with PCB boards - I find the work a bit too taxing for 68 year old fingers and eyes.

[Grees01]

Stay tuned. He's still trying to dial in that perfect tone.

LOL, Yea, that might be a minute or two. I sure do want to hear it though 
G.

[kagliostro]

Ciao Grees01 

I'm not a musician, only tube entusiast

I didn't specified the origin of the photo because I was thinking that the style of those amps is well known

(in the past I posted some other photo of amps build by the same constructor)

That amp is a Larry's amp

this builder is famous for his clean construction

things that give pleasure also to the eyes and not only to ears 

https://www.facebook.com/people/LarryAmplification/100057160312142/

---

A friend at DIYItalia is building this





A PSE amp that uses 2 russian GU50 (same of german LS50) as Power Section


as you can see the number of controls isn't low   


On this side of the pond controls are very appreciated, may be too much     

Franco

[uki]

@Franco , I'm curious about the BODY control, what it does? could you share the schematic for this control please?

[kagliostro]

That is a "Secret Project" of my friend, but you can see some documentation here

http://www.diyitalia.eu/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11085

all the thread, obviously, is in italian language, but you can use the translator of your browser to read it

at least, schematics are an universal language

about the Body ... I'll ask to my friend and inform you when I know exactly how to answer to your question in a correct way

Ciao

Franco

EDIT: You can find explanations here


https://www-diyitalia-eu.translate.goog/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10993&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=it&_x_tr_tl=en