A Little Trem-O-Nator Help?

[Lectroid]

I'm working on a Princeton clone, the second amp I've ever built.  So this time I wanted to add a tremolo circuit and my plan was to use the 6G2 circuit as a base and replace the tremolo circuit with sluckey's Trem-O-Nator.  For that reason I changed the design to cathode bias since I didn't need a fixed bias voltage to do the cathode wiggle effect.  The schematic I built is below.  I used sluckey's schematic from his website dated January 2020.  I tied it in to the grid of the second preamp tube.

When I first fired up the amp, I could not hear the tone from my frequency generator.  I did hear a mild thumping sound that increased in speed when I turned up the Speed knob.  It also increased in "thump" when I turned up the Intensity knob.  So I feel like the oscillator is working in its basic function.  However, the sound is not a mild tremolo variation of volume; it's a more percussive thumping sound like motor boating.

But it doesn't play nice with the rest of the amp.  No amplification came out except when the Intensity knob is full up.  Even then it was very quiet--I could hear the tone, but only just barely, and only when the Intensity knob was turned up.  The volume knob had no effect.  I changed the 25K Intensity pot to 50K but that didn't change anything to my ear.

As a test, I disconnected the tremolo circuit from the grid of V1b and of course the amp began working instantly.   

It's loud and clear with no noise/hiss that I can hear.  Some minor voicing issues but the amp seems to be working fine, with a nice range of breakup as you crank it.  The power dissipation is at 75% by robrob's calculator.  The PT is a tad small so I get some sag but for a plain 6V6 amp with a two-tube preamp, I am happy with the amp overall.

So, can anyone theorize why the tremolo circuit seems to work on its own, but kills the overall amplification? I know the TON works by providing a variable resistance ground path to the signal, rhythmically damping it.  But my circuit acts like it's dumping almost the entire signal to ground. 

Any thoughts??

[SILVERGUN]

Just curious...
What made you put it before to second stage grid?
sluckeys Bandmaster document has it after the 2nd stage coupling cap.
I would think that would be a good spot to try.

[sluckey]

You have the 10K in series with the LED. It should be in parallel with the LED. So, get that right first.

You will have to experiment with the way the INT pot connects to the signal path. Probably need a larger pot too. There are several other proven methods of connecting the TON to the signal path at the bottom of my web page. Experiment.

[pdf64]

Yes, the 50k trem intensity pot, positioned after the tone stack and 1M volume control, will be crippling the signal, as it’s a pretty high source impedance there.

I don’t see the point of bothering with a vactrol? Just use the tried and tested method of applying cathode bias vary modulation to the output valve grids, eg https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Gibson/Gibson_ea_35t_devon_trem.pdf
Of course LED bias for the oscillator would still be beneficial.

[ac427v]

I got good results connecting the trem-o-nator to a nonAB763 circuit by lifting the ground connection on Intensity Pot. Otherwise that pot sends most of the guitar signal to ground. Once you have tested that mod with a 50k pot, you may have to try different pot values to get the proper amount of control. I found a 250k RA worked well on the Plexi circuit.

[sluckey]

I got good results connecting the trem-o-nator to a nonAB763 circuit by lifting the ground connection on Intensity Pot. Otherwise that pot sends most of the guitar signal to ground. Once you have tested that mod with a 50k pot, you may have to try different pot values to get the proper amount of control. I found a 250k RA worked well on the Plexi circuit.

I agree. I think a 250K pot with no ground connection will do it for you too.

[Lectroid]

Everybody,

Thanks for all the great advice and suggestions.  I've done some work and here's where I am now.  I clipped in a red LED just to test and verified that I'm getting a strong oscillation.  Plate voltage is around 155V on the LFO tube, cathode voltage bounces around between ~1.3K and ~1.6K volts.  I can raise the plate voltage if that seems too low.  I have the LDR soldered direct to ground just for testing.

@sluckey: I re-wired the 10K resistor to be parallel to the LDR, thanks for the catch.  I moved up to a 100K pot for Intensity but got no dramatic change.  I have more 250K pots on order but tomorrow I'll plug in a decade box and try to nail down the general range for the pot. 

@sluckey, @ac427v: I will also try removing that pot's ground connection. But I don't understand why that will help(?).  Isn't the idea to route the signal to ground through the pot?

@SILVERGUN:  You're right, my mistake. I was referring to acheld's Princeton 5881 T-O-N at one point, but mis-read it. Your idea was better and I thought it would work.  Unfortunately it didn't.  Weirdly, the Intensity pot killed the oscillation as I dialed it up.  Aha! I thought, I'll just reverse the two outer leads on the Intensity pot and...it acts exactly the same, i.e.: turning up the Intensity actually decreases it.

@pdf64:  I went with the TON because a) I'm new at this and want to take baby steps and it's simple and b) it seems simple and it was the trem circuit I felt most comfortable that I understand it.  Jury's still out on that last part.

Yes, the 50k trem intensity pot, positioned after the tone stack and 1M volume control, will be crippling the signal, as it’s a pretty high source impedance there.

Could you please expand on that just a little?  Or point me toward a source that disucces that? I don't mind reading.  Impedance matching is something I know I need to understand better. 

I'll work on the amp tomorrow and post new results if anything new comes up.

Thanks again!

Rich

[sluckey]

@sluckey, @ac427v: I will also try removing that pot's ground connection. But I don't understand why that will help(?).  Isn't the idea to route the signal to ground through the pot?

The idea is to route the signal to ground through the LDR part of the vactrol. At least two people have had good results by removing the pot ground. Easy to try.

[ac427v]

You were so close to figuring it out in your first post when you said "my circuit acts like its dumping almost the entire signal to ground."

It is!
A 50k pot connected to ground acts as a very small resistor in parallel to a giant 6 Meg resistor (the vactrol diode) and the next stage of the amp. The pots path to ground is so small in comparison to the other two paths that almost all the signal goes through it and disappears. If you cut the intensity pot connection to ground, all of the guitar signal will go to the vactrol or the next amp stage. You will hear guitar sound and some tremolo. The size of the intensity pot and its setting will determine the ratio of signal going through the vactrol to ground or next amp stage and eventually the speaker.

So I say, just do it.

[Lectroid]

Update:

I pulled the ground off the pot and I now have some tremolo happening so that trick certainly worked in my case.

I now tap the TON into preamp just after the second stage coupling cap, as advised. 

Unrelated to the Intensity pot, I swapped out one of my .01uF phase shifting caps for a .022uF, giving me .022, .022, .01.  I don't think I like it; it gets slow but too swirly, almost like a phaser.

The Intensity pot is still not working right.  Today I tried a 500K, 1M and 2.5M pot in that spot but none of them worked very well. With all of them, the Intensity pot only ramps up the tremolo for roughly the first 0-25K of resistance, and even then the overall volume is reduced to less than half of what amp produces like without the tremolo circuit.   After the 25K mark, the tremolo effect stops completely--BUT then volume of the amp then increases up to where it would have been without tremolo.  It's like the Intensity pot is still letting all the signal trickle away to ground.

The weirdest thing is that all the different pot values behaved more or less the same in that regard. When I get the 250K pot I'll wire it in but I'm not very hopeful it'll be any better.  So I'm thinking that I have some other issue going on but I'm reduced to guesswork now and just trying off the wall stuff.

If anyone can suggest anything I'll give it a try.

[PRR]

.

[Lectroid]

@PRR

I thought for sure your fix would do it, but inserting the LFO circuit there didn't work, either.  I had to use a 500K pot since my 250K pots aren't here yet, but it still had the same behavior.  A mild tremolo but only at high end of the intensity range, and at the cost of a 50% drop in volume. I will test it with a 250K but don't expect much of an improvement.

With so many experienced people giving me similar answers, I fully expect at least one of your solutions should have worked.  This makes me think that I must have a problem with my layout or connections.  I just need to keep testing and tweaking until I figure it out. 

Thanks again, everyone!  I'll update this when I find the problem.

[sluckey]

Try this. You'll need to add a .047µF or .1µF cap. I got the idea from the second attachment which is a successful TON mod to a Hoffman style Princeton Reverb.

[Lectroid]

Thanks, sluckey!

Got the grandkids today but I'll try this tomorrow and let you know.

[Lectroid]

Just read on another thread that the Intensity pot specifically needs to be "reverse audio."  How is that different from a regular audio taper pot with its two outside leads reversed?  My ignorance may be the problem here. 

[sluckey]

Using a standard audio taper pot wired backwards means you will have zero intensity with the pot turned max clockwise, and you will have max intensity with the pot turned max counterclockwise. Pot taper is not your problem. You just need to continue experimenting with different insertion points and pot value. I'm hopeful that my last suggestion will get you close.

[ac427v]

Broken record here.
Do NOT connect the intensity pot to ground unless you have an AB763 type of circuit.
When I connected my Intensity Pot to ground it created exactly the problem you have described.
I found a 250k RA pot allowed excellent control over the entire knob sweep. A setting of 1 is no tremolo. A setting of 10 is very deep tremolo. 100k and 500k pots worked but cut off the mild tremolo effect or the intense tremolo effect. That is where experimenting will help determine what value is best for your amp.

[Lectroid]

@ac427v:
No worries, not connecting anything to ground.  Removing that ground wire was what got my circuit working to begin with--you are validated.  sluckey's drawing was just to show me where to tie in the trem circuit.

@sluckey:
No, putting it right before the PI between two coupling caps did not work either.  The 250K pot works great--I can see the effect on my scope.  At one end of the pot, the tremolo fades away, and at the other end the tremolo signal is very strong.

But my original problem remains.  No matter where I try to connect to TON to my circuit, I get no tremolo on my guitar signal until the intensity pot is up past 75% rotation, and as the intensity of the tremolo effect comes up, my volume drops away by a third or so.  Since I've now tried every point of insertion, I feel like my overall amp circuit must have some other issue that's interfering with the TON.  I think pdf64 was pointing at impedances being mismatched but I didn't fully understand what he may have meant.

Happy to try any other suggestions.

[Lectroid]

If anyone's still watching this thread, I've kept playing with this and am still in roughly the same place.  The amp works clean, the tone stack works.  Everything but the tremolo is great. 

The LFO works, the speed knob works.  But I still have the one problem.  When I turn "down" the intensity knob, the amp's volume is fine, but but when I turn "up" the Intensity, the volume drops away as the tremolo effect cuts in.  At full Intensity, the volume is about halved.

I've been measuring voltages and resistances, forming and testing theories, checking the schematic, etc., but nothing has fixed it yet.  Today I tested at a spare Vactrol I ordered when I got the one now in the amp. I used a DC power supply to drive the LED and measured the resistance of the LDR. 

When the voltage was below 1.5V, the resistance was very high, >2M.  Makes sense since the LED would be lit only weakly, if at all.  At higher voltages, I got these readings:

Volts	1.55	1.72	1.75	1.78	1.79	1.795	1.80	1.825	1.850	1.875
mA	0.2	0.3	0.49	0.82	0.97	1.0	1.24	1.85	3.3	4.4
Ohms	6200	800	485	325	280	270	236	203	153	134

This afternoon, I measured the voltage across the LED half of the Vactrol, (which is tied between cathode to ground.). Since it was, (of course,) fluctuating I could only measure the Max and the Min values.  What I got was:

Min DC voltage:   1.347 V      Low resistance = 1.8K
Max DC voltage:  1.617 V      High resistance = 5.5K

Since the LED has a forward voltage of 1.7V, how is my Trem-O-Nator circuit working at all?  And are those resistances far enough off the mark to account for my weird sucking-volume symptom?

Probably grasping at straws but any random thoughts appreciated.  I'm close to forgetting trying to make the T-O-N work here, and just re-purposing the 1/2 12AX7 as another gain stage.

[sluckey]

The LFO works, the speed knob works.  But I still have the one problem.  When I turn "down" the intensity knob, the amp's volume is fine, but but when I turn "up" the Intensity, the volume drops away as the tremolo effect cuts in.  At full Intensity, the volume is about halved.

That's how this tremolo circuit is supposed to act. When the vactrol is dark you will have normal volume. When the vactrol is lit up you will have reduced volume. The vactrol should be switching between full volume and reduced volume at the speed of the LFO.  That's what tremolo is. If you cannot adapt the TON to provide a pleasing effect with your amp circuit, then probably should abandon the TON. You're the first person to post about negative results.

I think you may just have too much intensity. How does it sound at reduced intensity?

[Lectroid]

sluckey,

Okay, my expectations may be way off--it's been a while since I've seriously played with a tremolo effect on a real production  amp.  I understand the trem should vary volume from whatever the Volume knob says to some lower volume in time with the LFO.  My circuit sounds to my ear like it drops the Volume knob's dialed-in volume down about 40% and then varies on that.  Tremolo is not something I use a lot.  I mainly wanted to try an LFO and to learn something new.  So maybe I'm just being picky and am too close to the project. I've got a couple of other projects waiting on the shelf, tapping their figurative feet in impatience.  Time to move along.

BTW, please don't take anything I've said as being negative about your T-O-N.  I love the straightforward simplicity of how you achieved what Fender did with a more complex mechanism and twice the number of parts.  I like elegant solutions.

Many thanks for all the help on this!

[Lectroid]

Forgot to answer your question.  At lower intensity the trem effect gradually fades away.  At roughly 50K of resistance, the trem fades out and the volume apparently gets louder.

[acheld]

Hmmm.  The symptoms you're describing don't fit my understanding of the Tremonator design -- which simply drains signal to ground depending on a varying resistance in the Vactrol.   

I'm wondering if the Vactrol itself may be the problem.  Is it a VTL5C1? (there are many variations -C1 thru C10).      Do you have a spare to swap in?  In my 5881 T-O-N I had to replace a branded XVive VTL5C1 -  due to a soldering mishap - with an unlabelled unit which did not work correctly. 

I suspect the offending unit was a VTL5C3 instead of a C1.   With known good VTL5C1 the trem works exactly as it should.   

[Lectroid]

@acheld,

Hmmm.  The symptoms you're describing don't fit my understanding of the Tremonator design -- which simply drains signal to ground depending on a varying resistance in the Vactrol.   

I'm wondering if the Vactrol itself may be the problem.  Is it a VTL5C1?   

They don't fit my understanding either.

I do have a spare VTL5C1 (or so it was labeled)--bought them from AES.  I think the one I have is okay because the values in my table above were generated from the Vactrol that's currently wired into the circuit.  My spare shows about the same values and they're both in line with the characteristic curves on the datasheet.

And sluckey may be right: it may be working fine.  But to me, the baseline volume level seems to drop down as the Intensity is cranked up.

My main question was really about the cathode voltages I'm seeing. My plate voltage on that tube is around 160 volts and  I know the LED has a "forward voltage" threshold of 1.7 volts.  Since my cathode voltage swings between 1.3 and 1.6 volts across the LED terminals, and so the LDR's resistance is not dropping much below 1000 ohms or so.  Do you think that could be the problem?  I can't see how it would be, but I think it ought to be working, so what do I know?

Do you know what plate and cathode voltages you saw on the T-O-N tube on your version? 

If I raised my plate voltage and left everything else alone, do you think would that raise the high voltage swing on my cathode up to 1.9 or 2 Volts where the LDR resistance is down in the double digits?


Thanks

[sluckey]

Do this test... Disconnect the Vactrol LED connection from the tube. Now connect a red LED from tube pin 8 to chassis ground. How does the LED perform? On slow speed does the LED go completely dark, then bright? If so, then a Vactrol should work. Have you ever connected the vactrol LED backwards, ie, plus to ground. It only takes about a second to kill the LED if connected backwards.

[Lectroid]

Okay.  I did this and the LED blinks in time to the LFO.  I'm not sure if it ever goes completely dark but certainly very dim, then bright in a rhythm that corresponds to changes in the Speed knob.  I know the LFO is working.  I tap into the signal chain between the 0.1uF and 0.022uF caps right before the PI.  It works great, except for the drop in volume.  It's like something to do with the Intensity pot is loading down the signal.  But I don't know what it could be.

[tubeswell]

Have you got an updated schematic (so we can assess the signal impedance)?

[PRR]

> the LDR's resistance is not dropping much below 1000 ohms or so.

You complaint is weak signal. 1K in a tube circuit sure makes it weak. What does the resistance go UP to? 100k? More? When swinging (look fast) and also when LED is dead (disconnected or power off that stage).

[Lectroid]

@tubeswell
Updated schematic attached.

You complaint is weak signal. 1K in a tube circuit sure makes it weak. What does the resistance go UP to? 100k? More? When swinging (look fast) and also when LED is dead (disconnected or power off that stage).

@PRR
Not sure which resistance you mean here.  LDR, or??  As in 1K where makes what weak?

I clipped a DVM across the LDR:
With Intensity pot turned completely down (250K), volume is nominal and resistance of the LDR >= 5M.
With Intensity pot all the way "up" (0 K) (and with volume drop), LDR Max R = 32K, LDR Min R = 5K.

I also re-measured the voltage across the LED of the Vactrol: 
LED max V = 1.59V, LED min V = 1.33 at "high" Intensity
LED max V = 1.59V, LED min V = 1.33 at "low" Intensity

Another clue (maybe) is that the Intensity pot has no effect at all from "full off" (250K) up to around 60K.  From about 80% rotation (60K) onward, the tremolo and the Intensity increases.  Only in that last 20% of its range is tremolo perceptible.  And that exactly corresponds to the region where the volume fades out.

And if I measured it right, cathode voltage on the LFO ranges from 1.0V  to 1.6V.

Thanks, all, for sticking with me this far.  Glad to make any tests you can suggest.


schematic deleted - new one attached below

[sluckey]

Disconnect the ground wire from the intensity pot. What happens?

[Lectroid]

sluckey,

I am sorry. The new schematic is wrong, there is no ground on the Intensity pot. My bad.    Earlier in the thread you and acheld advised me to remove it, which I did.  Doing that was what got me to the limited operation I have now.  Attached below is the updated, correct schematic to replace the one I posted earlier.  My apologies again for any time you wasted on that.

Today I've tried 1M, 500K, 250K, and 100K pots, and tried dropping the value of the LFO cathode resistor.  No joy.

[tubeswell]

What is the idle (trem off) voltage at the cathode of V2a?

[Lectroid]

Between 1.0 and 1.6 volts.   The LFO is oscillating and the trem signal is pronounced, nothing wrong with it.  It just loses much volume when the Intensity pot is dialed.

I will say that the trem also seems to add some "delay" to the tremolo peaks, where they take some little time to "bloom."  It's not the clean ringing Fender trem I'm used to.  It's possible I've implemented the LFO wrong in some way but I can 't find any difference from the schematic.

[tubeswell]

Have you considered inserting the LFO at the driver tube cathode? (Like a vibro champ)

[Lectroid]

tubeswell,

Not yet. This is only my second amp so I'm still copying known circuits and working by rules of thumb.  When I need to troubleshoot something, my toolkit is still pretty sparse.

I will give it a shot tomorrow and report back.  Since it's a cathodyne, I wonder; won't it mess up the balance between the two inputs?  Guess I'll find out.   

[tubeswell]

tubeswell,
.  Since it's a cathodyne, I wonder; won't it mess up the balance between the two inputs?  Guess I'll find out.   

No, I'm talking about the stage before the PI

[Lectroid]

That was my original position but pdf64 said it was the cause of my volume drop when the trem is increased.  At that point I had a 50K Intensity pot.

Yes, the 50k trem intensity pot, positioned after the tone stack and 1M volume control, will be crippling the signal, as it’s a pretty high source impedance there.

PRR had me try it after the 1st stage coupling cap but that didn't help the problem either.   sluckey suggested the pre-PI slot between two coupling caps.  No luck with that, either.

Today I'll try it again right after the tone stack as you suggest, but with my current 250K Intensity pot and adding in sluckey's suggested 0.1uF cap.  Stay tuned.

[Lectroid]

@tubeswell,

Wait, you said cathode didn't you?  I'll try that first.  (Shouldn't try to think prior to second cup of caffeine.)

[acheld]

Don't take this post as advice, just food for thought.   I've been following your thread with curiosity since my prior build ( Princeton 5881 T-O-N) shares some characteristics, and works so well. 

There are major differences between the circuits, however.  The only one that seems to be relevant is that the 5881 T-O-N Intensity pot 3rd lug does go to ground.   I recognize this introduces a voltage divider, and the pot does not act solely as a variable resistor, but it works. 

In the 5881 T-O-N, as you are already aware, the insertion point for the trem is just before the phase inverter.  In the first version of the amp, I had the insertion point immediately following the volume control -- the trem effect seemed to be limited there, so I went on to the next stage. 

The 5881 T-O-N runs at much higher voltages.   I had a 290CX on hand and used it, along with a GZ34 as the power supply.  I don't recall the exact preamp plate voltages, but they were at least double what you are running.   But, I don't see why lower plate voltages should affect your trem behavior . . .  maybe it could, but I'm not sure why.

[sluckey]

Today I'll try it again right after the tone stack as you suggest, but with my current 250K Intensity pot and adding in sluckey's suggested 0.1uF cap.  Stay tuned.

You don't need to add a cap if you will be connecting to the tone stack.

Just a thought... You've been struggling with the ton for almost a month with no satisfaction. At this point I would abandon the ton and just use the stock 6G2 trem circuit. Very easy to change over. And the stock trem sounds very nice.

[PRR]

Not sure which resistance you mean here.  LDR, or??  As in 1K where makes what weak?

You said "the LDR's resistance is not dropping much below 1000 ohms or so." Did I misread '1000 ohms'?

Get a 1k fixed resistor and shunt nearly anywhere in a tube amp's signal path. It gets weak.

Do not fret about LED Voltage!! That's nearly meaningless! Even when it is on the datasheet! The voltage hardly changes over a wide range of light output. Your "1.33V" is probably far down in the "dark" zone, as you would see if you tried a plain naked red LED on a slow-slow sweep you meter could follow.

[Lectroid]

Yes, I've been losing hope lately...BUT--

tubeswell's suggestion to tack it to the 2nd stage cathode WORKED!  All glory to tubeswell!

I've attached a new, final schematic below.

Tubeswell's solution also cleaned up a slight fuzziness and delay, or "bloom" in the attack of the tremolo.  I now have a very clean, solid tremolo effect at full volume across the scale.  The Intensity pot that seems to work best for me is 10K, although it still only brings up the trem effect from about 70% rotation.  Everything CCW of that point bypassed the tremolo completely.  I tried a 1.2K pot and it exhibited exactly the same behavior.  That seems very weird to me but I'll accept it because everything else is working so well.

@sluckey
I know I will try to 6G2 bias-wiggle version soon.  I wanted to make the T-O-N work because it's simpler and elegant.  I also don't think many people have tried it and I wanted to  prove the concept with one more amp.  I hope more people give this tremolo a shot. Anyway, you can add me to the list of happy customers.

@PRR
Thanks for clarifying that. It's what I suspected but appreciate knowing for sure.  Working alone I make a lot of connections/assumptions and it helps to get them confirmed (or laughed at ).  Every course correction helps.

Many thanks again to everyone who chewed on the problem for me.  You've all taught me lot with this.  You are all great!
   

[ac427v]

Dam, you are persistent! I mean that in the best way. And Tubeswell's idea of inserting on the cathode is really thinking out of the box.
You might find that a 5k linear pot would give a more useful range of control over the intensity. Now...what to build next?

[Lectroid]

Thank you. I have no intelligence or natural talent so persistence is all I got.   

tubeswell's lesson is that tweaking the cathode can certainly affect what's in the "signal path.  That hadn't dawned on be before but I'll remember it now.

Next up is an AB763.  Right now, I'm kinda leaning toward a Pro-Reverb, modified to use a high-z reverb tank (4F....)

[Lectroid]

Just to finish this off...

@ac427v
Your suggestion about the 5K linear pot was right on the money.  It gives me a much wider range of control over the trem intensity.  Thanks again.

btw, your handle: does it have anything to do with a certain late-60s British sports car re-powered with a huge hunk of Detroit iron?

[sluckey]

Is the schematic you posted in reply #41 the final version, except with a 5K-L INT pot?

[Lectroid]

Yes.  Shall I post an update?

[sluckey]

Please.

[ac427v]

Great that it is tremming now. I thought my forum name was random but your mention of the sports car makes me think it was subliminal. I used to be a bit fanatical about MGB

[Lectroid]

Here's the updated schematic.  I also lowered the PS resistors to nudge up the plate voltage on the 6V6s.  Also been playing with the NFB.  I can't really decide if it's having an effect or not.  But left it on the schematic for completeness.

@ac427v:
Love the old MG-Bs--stole my older brother's every time he turned his back.  Back in SoCal in those days there were still a lot of orange groves and twisty rural roads for showboating. 

Also got to help drive a Shelby Cobra 289 from the Bay Area down to OC right after Interstate 5 was opened the entire distance and was still basically an unused wide-open road over its entire length.  Say, 1971?  A Datsun 280Z wanted to race so of course I had to give him some lengths and then pass him going 120, as I upshifted into third gear and disappeared over his horizon.  Mmm.  However did I live this long?  Blind luck.