Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 12:40:46 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Custom 5F1 Build  (Read 5900 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Custom 5F1 Build
« on: May 18, 2022, 08:41:03 pm »
I'm building a 5F1 amp (with MVol) housed inside a vintage Silvertone radio cabinet modified to take a Jensen 8".
The original Silvertone chassis is modified to accept modern parts.
Additional details are at this link https://stillampd.com/silvertone-champ

Are there any issues or suggestions with the current wire dress or component layout (pic below).
In particular, the PS filter is very close to the speaker switch and jack.
The heater wire runs down the middle of the chassis about an inch from the AC run to the switch and back.


Offline Stuff4bikes

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 08:50:51 pm »
I have built a champ on a silvertone reel to reel chassis, looks like a very similar chassis....
You say 5F1 but is your output transformer push pull? I would say lay that heater wire flat against
The chassis and as far as you can get it from signal wires.....the caps I don't know but I have made some cramped amps
And don't hear any discernable noise..

Someone will come by with more expertise than me.....

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 09:26:21 pm »
I have built a champ on a silvertone reel to reel chassis, looks like a very similar chassis....
You say 5F1 but is your output transformer push pull? I would say lay that heater wire flat against
The chassis and as far as you can get it from signal wires.....the caps I don't know but I have made some cramped amps
And don't hear any discernable noise..

Someone will come by with more expertise than me.....

The OT is single ended (Hammond 1760c). It provides 5k brown and 8k blue primary. I will use the 8K for this 5F1.
I tried to keep the heaters away from the AC and on the top of the Chassis close to metal whereas the Signal wires will be floating on the bottom (when mounted) so about 1" separation. I might also use some shielded signal lines. BTW - this is same circuit I used in the Zachamp https://stillampd.com/z-champ-06
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 09:30:34 pm by scstill »

Offline Stuff4bikes

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2022, 09:59:22 pm »
Nice builds......I put a little single ended 2A3 in an 1930's EL RAY table top radio cabinet....

Offline shaun

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 06:31:13 pm »
Heyo. I've built a bunch of amps inside pre-used chassis, and it can become logistically daunting. Which I can see you aware of by how you've placed the rec tube and power filtering - interesting! Although you might want to give that 5watter a little more room to breathe because it will stay cooler that way.

One of the first things I realized - well, it took me a while actually - was to stop using those on/off switches on the volume knobs. Having the AC so close to the signal is always a recipe for hum. I recommend using a dedicated power switch and a separate vol pot, and keep them as far apart on the face-plate as possible.

Next, I encourage you to run the heater wiring as far from any signal wiring as possible, including the vol pot. In the pic, it runs right by it, so...more hum/noise. I'd also encourage you to move your tone pot in between the vol pot and input jack, so that you have shorter signal wire runs. Actually, I'd put the vol pot next to the input jack, probably, and the tone pot where the vol pot is. Keep all signal paths as far from power sections as possible.

In that same light, I'd move the OT closer to the rear of the chassis, and I'd move the 6V6 socket to the rear also, perhaps using one of the big, pre-drilled holes if possible. I'd also move the nine-pin socket to the front of the chassis, nearer the input. i.e. almost as if swapping the nine pin for the octal and vice-versa.

That mini-switch is probably to switch speaker impedance, and it could go on the back panel, or somewhere a little further away from the power filtering is possible. It might also be okay where it is, but my rule of thumb is to separate all stages in terms of distance where ever possible, and it should be easy to relocate.

Possibly annoying advice, I know, and I realize that I'm recommending a redesign of much of the chassis, but I'm not trying to undermine the progress and work that you've already put in. I built a bunch of amps similar to this and then wondered why they hummed and oscillated out of control half the time. Then I came to understand that there are electro-magnetic fields emanating from most of the AC and high voltage paths, and they will overwhelm the signal paths every time. So amp layout became a top priority if I wanted success of any sort.

The other big lesson I learned was to lift all the grounding points off the chassis and create a star-ground system, or at least take charge of the grounding system effectively. So first, the preamp section is grounded to a single point off the chassis using a terminal strip (although some people use the input jack sleeve for this, I don't), which then connects to the power tube ground point - again, using a terminal strip - which then connects to the main ground point somewhere near the power transformer end actually on the chassis using a sturdy lug. So the grounding all flows downhill, as it were. Otherwise, you'll run into ground loops and hum etc. When learning about amp design, I looked inside old amps from the 50s and they seemed to be grounded all over the place, so I thought I could too. Ha!

Of course, feel free to ignore this advise :). Just trying to help. Good luck with the build.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 06:33:43 pm by shaun »
With gratitude.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 06:04:30 pm »
Some adjustments, based on feedback:
Reconfigured the PS filters and relocated it
Raised the OT to switch wires
Lowered HV wires in a common run
Can run filament close to HV (away from pots) or close to AC (closer to pots).
Signal lines when installed will be floating above the HV, AV and Fil. Might also use shielded wire.
Will be using star grounds one for preamp, one for output stage.
Agree with many of the mechanical suggestions. thinking too late for this build. Some of the suggestions (OT and 6V6) cannot be moved because there is a speaker magnet that needs that space.
BTW - the non-switched pot is MV not Tone. Could swap with Switched Vol to get AC closer to source but thinking it is currently in a more common place close to input jack.

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4201
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 06:50:11 pm »
You might want to relocate your input jack or your output tube socket so they are further away from each other. (Assuming that is the output tube socket?)
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 07:35:27 pm »
You might want to relocate your input jack or your output tube socket so they are further away from each other. (Assuming that is the output tube socket?)
I purposely located the preamp tube in the back corner so it is as far from the PT as possible. What issue could be created with the output tube close to the input jack? Would be alot of mod to swap the tubes.

Offline shaun

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 09:40:42 pm »
Well, your input jack is slap up next to the power tube socket, which will be full of high voltage and AC from the heaters, thus messing with the delicate input signal, which you will have to run right passed it. You'd usually want your preamp tube closer to the input jack, and the output tube nearer the rear of the chassis, or at least closer to the output tranny.
With gratitude.

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4201
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 09:42:23 pm »
What issue could be created with the output tube close to the input jack? Would be alot of mod to swap the tubes.


Stronger EM flux density from the output tube wiring/connections coupling into the more-noise-sensitive input circuit. May or may not be an issue, but if you get an annoying hum that you can't eliminate by other methods, this could be a source of hum - eyeballing how close these parts seem to be. In Fender's classic layouts, the output tube along with other 'high-voltage/high-current' parts of the circuit are separated from the low-voltage/low current ones
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2022, 12:25:50 pm »
The output tube plate signal is hundreds of volts. The input jack signal is 0.020V. Putting these two together is sure to oscillate. Just like putting a PA microphone against its speaker will feed-back.

Offline shaun

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2022, 02:43:25 pm »
Just like putting a PA microphone against its speaker will feed-back.

Nice way of putting it - helps me understand the dynamics at play.
With gratitude.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2022, 12:09:20 pm »
Good advice.

I switched the preamp tube and output tube by fabricating a plate to fill the big hole.
Now the 6V6 is about as far as I can move it from input jack.
The big holes to it's side interfere with the speaker magnet.

Also the filament and HV is move to the center to avoid the vol and MV pots.
On the other side is the speaker output
The OT sec wires are raised about an inch over the filament/HV

« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 12:16:22 pm by scstill »

Offline shaun

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2022, 12:45:11 pm »
That looks much better, and I'm sure you'll have a better result. Nice work. Things certainly get tight when working with pre-used parts :).

What is your PT? Just interested to see what others are using in Champs style amps.
With gratitude.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2022, 03:12:01 pm »
PT is Hammond 272x using the black primary. Suppose  I could get a bit more sec voltage if I used the gray wire.
OT is Hammond 1760c using the blue primary for 8k to the 6V6. Switched sec for 4, 8, 16ohm
Specs in Pic. I get transformers from Hawk Elec seems to have the best prices around
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 03:14:31 pm by scstill »

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 12:29:07 am »
The output tube plate signal is hundreds of volts. The input jack signal is 0.020V. Putting these two together is sure to oscillate. Just like putting a PA microphone against its speaker will feed-back.

The preamp tube also has plate voltage that is pretty high too.
Couldn't this also cause the effect you describe?
Input pin 2 and plate pin 1 and pin 6 are pretty close.
And though I moved the tubes preamp is close to input jack.
I will know soon as its built and ready for testing....
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 12:33:43 am by scstill »

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4201
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 01:02:25 am »
The output tube plate signal is hundreds of volts. The input jack signal is 0.020V. Putting these two together is sure to oscillate. Just like putting a PA microphone against its speaker will feed-back.

The preamp tube also has plate voltage that is pretty high too.
Couldn't this also cause the effect you describe?
Input pin 2 and plate pin 1 and pin 6 are pretty close.
And though I moved the tubes preamp is close to input jack.
I will know soon as its built and ready for testing....


The input stage's plate is working off the signal at the input stage grid, which is connected to the input anyway.
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2022, 05:48:12 pm »
The SilverChamp is now working, sounds really good to my ears
Voltages seem good noted in the marked up schematic.

But there is a small (annoying) hum, thinking it's the heater.
Used 100ohm artificial center tap with a long run down the center avoiding pots and speaker jack on either side.
Physical movement of the heater wire does nothing.
Tried the following on the artificial heater CT
     Adding additional 800, 1k, 2k in parallel (humdinger sim) does nothing
     Moving the ground from G3 to G1 or chassis does nothing
     Elevating the ground (6v6 pin 8) does nothing
     Ungrounding the Artificial CT does nothing
Seems like the heater CT is not working.
The 100ohm resistors (100.8 and 100.3) are mounted to the pilot light and all the connections are good and the pilot light and heater voltages are good.

Any other tricks or thoughts you might suggest?

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4201
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2022, 06:34:54 pm »
Try re-doing your ground returns - see suggested layout 'B' attached. The two yellow wires are the B+ (going to the positive side of the filter caps) and the main ground from the rectifier circuit - i.e. the Primary winding CT in the case of your tube rectified amp (going to the negative/ground side of the filter caps)

Also try shielded cable in place of sensitive signal wires (such as between your volume pot wiper and the grid of the V1b triode). Ground each cable shield at one end only.
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2022, 06:47:59 pm »
...The preamp tube also has plate voltage that is pretty high too. ....

The gain between is only about 50.

The gain from input jack to power plate is about 10,000. (0.02V in, 200V out.)

Also it is nearly impossible to make an oscillator of one triode, the phase is wrong. There's unpredictable phase shift in the multiple stages of a complete guitar amp.

I know how convenient it is to have the outhouse right next to the well. But it is often a bad idea.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2022, 08:20:44 pm »
Try this... Disconnect the two black wires from the power switch. Solder them together and tape up. Then pull the two wires away from the volume pot and back over near the PT. Hum any better?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2022, 08:51:46 pm »
Try re-doing your ground returns - see suggested layout 'B' attached. The two yellow wires are the B+ (going to the positive side of the filter caps) and the main ground from the rectifier circuit - i.e. the Primary winding CT in the case of your tube rectified amp (going to the negative/ground side of the filter caps)

Also try shielded cable in place of sensitive signal wires (such as between your volume pot wiper and the grid of the V1b triode). Ground each cable shield at one end only.

I used coax on both wiper pots and only grounded at one end.
Initially I used straight wire. I changed it to coax but it did not help.

I also followed the star grounding in the pic below.
There is a Preamp star G1 and a Output/PS star G3.
The MV which drives the 6v6 is on preamp star
The speaker and input jack are chassis ground.

Why wouldn't the hum be affected when the 6v CT is removed?

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2022, 09:01:23 pm »
Try this... Disconnect the two black wires from the power switch. Solder them together and tape up. Then pull the two wires away from the volume pot and back over near the PT. Hum any better?

No change

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2022, 09:23:17 pm »
A popular 5F1 mod that is effective at reducing hum is to add another filter cap and 100Ω resistor between the rectifier and the first filter cap.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline tubeswell

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4201
  • He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2022, 10:25:31 pm »
There is a Preamp star G1 and a Output/PS star G3.


That is not how the grounding diagram in that schematic is laid out. There should only be one grounding point to the chassis (at the input jack where the ground symbol is). The output stage grounds all converge at the floating end of the ground buss wire (but this is not attached to the chassis)
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2022, 05:40:33 pm »
There is a Preamp star G1 and a Output/PS star G3.

That is not how the grounding diagram in that schematic is laid out. There should only be one grounding point to the chassis (at the input jack where the ground symbol is). The output stage grounds all converge at the floating end of the ground buss wire (but this is not attached to the chassis)

Thanks for the clarification on the diagram, I did not realize the stars were floating.
I built ZaChamp (https://stillampd.com/z-champ-06) with same grounding stars to chassis - no hum.
But in this build to test the idea, I lifted both stars off the chassis, connected them with a buss (clip wire)
and connected this to the input jack ground.
It not change the hum.

The hum is quite low and doesn't change with volume. But even low its annoying.
Especially because it shouldn't be there and so far everything tried does not change it.

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2022, 05:45:09 pm »
A popular 5F1 mod that is effective at reducing hum is to add another filter cap and 100Ω resistor between the rectifier and the first filter cap.

Thanks for the idea.
I should have mentioned, the hum does not change with volume.
Could a mod to the filtering help in this regard? Wouldn't that address hum that increases with volume?

I built another ZaChamp with this same circuit, but the layout was different
That build did not have hum

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2022, 05:58:15 pm »
This mod is very effective at reducing power amp hum.

Another way to reduce hum in this entry level amp is to use a cheap 8" speaker that doesn't have good low end response. That was Fender's solution.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2022, 08:53:24 pm »
This mod is very effective at reducing power amp hum.

Another way to reduce hum in this entry level amp is to use a cheap 8" speaker that doesn't have good low end response. That was Fender's solution.

Good news, the PS filter stage did the trick, Thanks
Half the hum with 18uf; negligible hum with 33uf.
The 150ohm 5w resistor only dropped about 6v
Now I just have to figure how to add these permanently to the chassis.

The current first cap is 18uf to match the 5F1 schematic.
Could I just replace the 18 with the 33 and get the same result?

BTW - I tried 2 other speakers with same result, but they all have good low end.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2022, 09:39:18 pm »
Could I just replace the 18 with the 33 and get the same result?
No.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2022, 12:11:52 am »
...
Could I just replace the 18 with the 33 and get the same result?

C-R-C is MUCH better filtering than one big C.


Offline scstill

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • https://stillampd.com
    • Still Amp'd
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Custom 5F1 Build
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2022, 12:24:20 pm »
Well this project is pretty complete now.
The PS Filter mod found a decent home
Its a mod I'll do in the future for sure.

Sounds really good and is super quiet.
I love the MV in the champ can drive hard at whisper volumes
Will update the web page in the next day or so and maybe start adding some sound clips
https://stillampd.com/silvertone-champ

Thanks for all the help
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 02:01:17 pm by scstill »

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program