1958'ish Fender Champ

[John]

Hi Everyone, it has been a long time, although I still read posts occasionally. My friend came across his Dad's Champ in the attic, and wanted to make sure it plays, etc. before putting it up for sale. There are hopefully pics attached. I have a few questions:


It was missing the fuse holder cap, so I put one on. It's not a genuine Fender, does this matter?


It was missing the screws for the handle, so I'm using either brass or plain zinc. Does it matter? I have no idea if there's even "genuine" Fender screws from that era available.


The plug has been replaced, but pretty sure the cord itself is original. I'm thinking of not doing anything with that, or should I install 3 prong (for legal issues) and send along the 2 wire cord?


I brought it up on the lamp limiter w/ 60W bulb. It plays and sounds great, not too much noise thru that little 6" speaker. I'm thinking of making a lamp limiter to send along with it to protect the transformer so they wouldn't have to re-cap it? Does that sound right? I mean, it seems a shame to take out vintage 70 yr old caps if they still work, as long as there's protection in place.


I haven't built or repaired anything for quite a while, it's why you haven't been blessed with my questions haha. Thanks in advance for your replies and comments. As you can see, this little amp is in really nice shape, and I don't want to do anything beyond absolutely necessary to it.
Many thanks,
John from Carroll County Md.

[Latole]

Hi Everyone, it has been a long time, although I still read posts occasionally. My friend came across his Dad's Champ in the attic, and wanted to make sure it plays, etc. before putting it up for sale. There are hopefully pics attached. I have a few questions:


It was missing the fuse holder cap, so I put one on. It's not a genuine Fender, does this matter?

It is look like Fender ?
Tell in the add.
Did you put the right fuse  ? It is a must


It was missing the screws for the handle, so I'm using either brass or plain zinc. Does it matter? I have no idea if there's even "genuine" Fender screws from that era available.

No brass, use stainless screw ,easy available, most important : the right head

The plug has been replaced, but pretty sure the cord itself is original. I'm thinking of not doing anything with that, or should I install 3 prong (for legal issues) and send along the 2 wire cord?

Live the original cable

I brought it up on the lamp limiter w/ 60W bulb. It plays and sounds great, not too much noise thru that little 6" speaker. I'm thinking of making a lamp limiter to send along with it to protect the transformer so they wouldn't have to re-cap it? Does that sound right? I mean, it seems a shame to take out vintage 70 yr old caps if they still work, as long as there's protection in place.

No need lamp limiter

I haven't built or repaired anything for quite a while, it's why you haven't been blessed with my questions haha. Thanks in advance for your replies and comments. As you can see, this little amp is in really nice shape, and I don't want to do anything beyond absolutely necessary to it.
Many thanks,
John from Carroll County Md.

[sluckey]

Hi John. Nice find! It's much older than 58ish. Probably worth a lot of money. Fuse holder is fine. I'm pretty sure the power cord has been replaced with lamp cord. Scroll down to the bottom of this page and click on the "Amp Trim Handles" link to see what the screws look like. They are silver colored (nickel plated steel, not brass), #6 X 3/4" philips pan head screws. Go to Lowes to get them. Use stainless if you cannot find nickel plated. I would not use zinc plated screws. No lamp limiter.

Don't do anything to the amp. It's worth more money as it is. Here's the schematic...

     https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_champ_5c1.pdf

PS... If the #6 screws won't hold good, then put some wood glue on a toothpick, jam it in the hole, and break off flush. Put the screws in next day.

[tdvt]

Good advice above.

Since he plans to sell it, it sounds like just those missing bits are all that is needed.

If he was keeping it to play through, I would replace the power cord. But as that's not the case...

Thinking those were '53-'55

[John]

Thanks guys!
I've often rolled my eyes at some of the worshipful comments about the old amps... and yet, when he pulled this out my hands started shaking a little. lol


I'll look for those screws too, thanks!

[dogburn]

Yeah, if it's working now, definitely don't change things beyond the screws for the handle and the cap for the fuse holder. I'd tell your friend to sell it as nearly original (it would be hard to get more original than this one, I expect), but to make buyers aware of the potential issues regarding two prong plugs and the "death cap." Of course, some collector may buy it to stick on a shelf and never play through it.

[Latole]

Did you put the right fuse  ? It is a must

[DummyLoad]

On the tube chart I THINK yours has a date code that is CL - 1953 - December? 

I think that I may have the period correct cap for that amps fuse holder. You are welcome to it if you pay the postage. The holder was broken, I saved the cap. PM if you're interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hyfrd35cd7q8ugg/AAAtZeTUXGniodV6ZcdzH6Vca?dl=0

--Pete


1951-1967 – Tube chart on the inside of the amp is stamped with two letters (A – Q):The first letter designates the year and the second letter designates the month.A 1951 JAN
B 1952 FEB
C 1953 MAR
D 1954 APR
E 1955 MAY
F 1956 JUN
G 1957 JUL
H 1958 AUG
I 1959 SEP
J 1960 OCT
K 1961 NOV
L 1962 DEC
M 1963
N 1964
O 1965
P 1966
Q 1967

[dogburn]

What's also cool about this amp is the masking tape on the chassis is marked "Lupe," indicating she put this amp together. She's something of a legend in terms of Fender employees, so it could add to the value (or not - I'm not a collector of the sort who pay big money for vintage amps, so don't quote me on that).

[zircontweezer]

Amazing bit of history and it still works 70 years on. I'd leave it as is and full disclosure to the buyer. They weren't worried about ground loops too much back then were they.

[PRR]

.... the masking tape on the chassis is marked "Lupe," indicating she put this amp together. She's something of a legend in terms of Fender employees,...

Hey yeah!

https://obits.ocregister.com/us/obituaries/orangecounty/name/lupe-duarte-obituary?id=22580034

https://www.facebook.com/HardWayVintage/posts/the-only-photo-of-lupe-lopez-one-of-the-fender-assembly-ladies-taken-by-leo-fend/2084033525178071/

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/vintage/221113/lupe-lopez-the-goddess-of-soldering

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bi4kA1BBj6k/?hl=bg

[Latole]

What's also cool about this amp is the masking tape on the chassis is marked "Lupe," indicating she put this amp together. She's something of a legend in terms of Fender employees, so it could add to the value (or not - I'm not a collector of the sort who pay big money for vintage amps, so don't quote me on that).

[Latole]

Amazing bit of history and it still works 70 years on. I'd leave it as is and full disclosure to the buyer. They weren't worried about ground loops too much back then were they.

This type of amp (like most point-to-point amps of this era ('50-'70) can have an unlimited lifespan thanks to the use of basic and quite standard parts that a simple electronics technician (not a fake) will always be able to repair.

 A short lifespan can also depend on careless use, for example of a 10-amp fuse, or entrusting it to an amateur for repair; there are, alas, many such cases.

[John]

DL, that fuse cap would be great, sent you a PM. Thank you!


Latole, it's got a 1A fuse in it right now, so quit worrying :)


I'm not touching the insides.


And that is doubly cool about the builder! No wonder my hands shook a little bit ;)

[Latole]

Latole, it's got a 1A fuse in it right now, so quit worrying :)

Good to read that.
I think it need a 2 A  normal / fast blow.
Lower power fuse is better to higher power

[HotBluePlates]

... My friend came across his Dad's Champ in the attic, and wanted to make sure it plays, etc. before putting it up for sale. ...
It was missing the screws for the handle, so I'm using either ...

The plug has been replaced, but pretty sure the cord itself is original. I'm thinking of not doing anything with that, or should I install 3 prong (for legal issues) and send along the 2 wire cord? ...

I would recommend doing nothing to the amp.  No new screws, no new cord, though do keep the added fuse-cap (since the amp won't work without it).

This is a December 1953 Fender, in essentially 100% original condition.  A large chunk of its value to collectors is in remaining "as it left the factory" and current asking prices suggest it could sell for near $3k.

It's better not to have "non-vintage parts" in the same way that gun owners know "don't clean that Winchester 1873" and coin-collectors know "don't clean that old coin."  An imperfect "restoration" hurts the collector value more than the amp having missing minor bits or being non-functional due to leaky caps.

[Latole]

... My friend came across his Dad's Champ in the attic, and wanted to make sure it plays, etc. before putting it up for sale. ...
It was missing the screws for the handle, so I'm using either ...

The plug has been replaced, but pretty sure the cord itself is original. I'm thinking of not doing anything with that, or should I install 3 prong (for legal issues) and send along the 2 wire cord? ...

I would recommend doing nothing to the amp.  No new screws, no new cord, though do keep the added fuse-cap (since the amp won't work without it).

This is a December 1953 Fender, in essentially 100% original condition.  A large chunk of its value to collectors is in remaining "as it left the factory" and current asking prices suggest it could sell for near $3k.

It's better not to have "non-vintage parts" in the same way that gun owners know "don't clean that Winchester 1873" and coin-collectors know "don't clean that old coin."  An imperfect "restoration" hurts the collector value more than the amp having missing minor bits or being non-functional due to leaky caps.

That makes a lot of sense.

And easier to do nothing 

[John]

Thanks again for all the replies.


The pics don't show it, but it is missing the emblem that goes on the back. (I had forgotten it was missing till reminded)  I have no idea where to get one that would be the right year, and if it's not the original that came w/ amp, probably be a bad idea even if I could? I'm no collector, but if I was I'd bet that's something that would actually hurt value - having an obviously replaced emblem.

[bmccowan]

Repros are available - but I agree that adding anything non-original is a bad idea if trying to get the $2K - $3K collector price. Likely no more than $2.5K if not complete. But that is nothing to sneeze at. Buyer will know that they can buy a repro badge.
Or you could paint the whole thing black. Drill some holes. Add a gain stage. Add trem, etc. How many times have we seen that?

[mresistor]

The new buyer could also have someone "age" or "relic" a repro badge.

[Latole]

The new buyer could also have someone "age" or "relic" a repro badge.

Right  I will not waste time with repro.

[HotBluePlates]

NOTE:  Providing the below because many here just focus on tech aspects, and don't get too spun up about the perceptions that drive the amp collector market.

The pics don't show it, but it is missing the emblem that goes on the back. ...  I have no idea where to get one ... and if it's not the original that came w/ amp, probably be a bad idea even if I could? I'm no collector, but if I was I'd bet that's something that would actually hurt value - having an obviously replaced emblem.

Generally, yes it's a bad idea.

Collector value is attached to "factory original" then "cosmetic condition" then "functional performance."  Restoration with modern stuff generally does nothing to enhance the value, and may negatively impact the price/value.  And since it would be very difficult to find an original Fender badge to put on it, it's better to leave that alone.

In the high-end collectible amps, there are forgeries made with vintage parts that have left a sour taste for buyers.  Among the "regular vintage amps" buyers know all the minute details of the amps: replacing or adding a non-vintage part to "improve condition" almost never helps the selling price (and usually hurts it).  Now that I know how to spot original blackface Fender knobs, I can't un-see it when someone replaces all the knobs with new ones for reissue amps "to improve the condition/value."

The best option is usually to leave it untouched (even if non-functional) as a museum-piece, and let the buyer replace parts as desired.  Some will pony u a lot of money to have a tech re-stuff the electrolytic cap sleeves with fresh caps, and maybe even re-use the shells of the Astron coupling caps around a modern polyester cap to retain the untouched look.


Pointing all this stuff out as I have my own museum-piece amp, that's all original down to the tubes Ampeg installed when it left the factory in 1962, and the Ampeg-labeled cardboard box that carried it to the store that first sold it.  When they're untouched, they trade at multiples of the usual vintage example's price.

[John]

Wow, that's amazing HPB, thanks for posting!


Thanks for confirming my thought about the emblem.

[mresistor]

Wow, that's amazing HPB, thanks for posting!

Hey John  look at the post from HBP.  Notice it's not HPB.  Has it always been HotBluePlates?

[John]

Typo on my part. HotPlatesBlue doesn't have the same ring does it? ;)