Need opinions on the Stout w/Reverb

[sjcasas]

Hi all... It's been a while but I'm back at it. My daughter wants to build one. She "helped" me when I built her a Princeton Reverb. She has Army experience in electronics, and is going to school for Sound Engineering, and with me shadowing her there won't be any issues. Hopefully...


Anyways, she uses Reverb when she plays... me too, so we need it to be a reverb amp. I already have 4 Princeton Reverbs that I built (I love them all!), so we don't want to build another one of those. I love the 1x12" speaker small combo archetype, but the PR is a bit on the weak side. Hence the desire for 18+Watts. I also have an amazing Deluxe Reverb, but it's heavy. The Princeton Reverb is the PERFECT size, and I can build the cabinet easy. Soooooo, what we want is a Stout Reverb, in a PR chassis.

I'd really like to hear from people who have built one. How does it sound? What speaker did you use? Is it "Marshall-y?" How is the lead tone? Does it clean up nice for rhythm tones? How is it with pedals? Did you use the relay-switchable gain stage? Is it necessary? Anything else I should be aware of?


Thanks in advance. This will be my 4th build using a Hoffman board, but not my 4th build! I have been working on tube amps since high school in 1985, and somehow I lived through it! I have also been a gigging musician from then until about 4 years ago. But one of my daughters is wresting the torch from me...

[glass54]

I did note that you don't want to build another PR.
...But have you considered a Single channel AB763, beefed up PS and 20W plus O/P Tx with (of course 1x12") in the Princeton Cabinet.
You could use Mosfet buffering/Drive because you are one Tube Short.
That way you get a Gutsy amp in a Princeton Cabinet with 12" speaker (and proven designs from our colleagues) 
My thoughts, I've done it (with a custom Toroid P/T and Bridge Rectifier with a fairly Stiff Power Supply).
Kind Regards
Mirek

[tubenit]

I have never been happy with any EL84 amp that I've owned or built. I've never bonded with that tube. I've never been able to get a smooth tone and they've always sounded too harsh to me.

Since you already use 6V6's in your PR's ............ what about building a Marshall style amp with 6V6's instead with a one tube reverb?   

I've liked the 12DW7 for the reverb tube but 12AT7 or 12AX7 work fine also.

I built one like this maybe 15 yrs ago for my son and he loves it.

If you built it cathode biased using a 300-0-300  140ma PT, then you could use either 6V6's or 6L6's or 5881's in it. I have two amps currently where I've taken that approach.     (IF you didn't want tube rectification, then I'd use a 275-0-275 PT)

The paralleled V1 gives about 30% more gain without increasing floor noise.

Emminence Cannabis Rex or Warehouse ET65 would be good speakers for this amp design.

I couldn't find a picture of my son's amp handy, but we built a cab for his that was a copy of one of my tweed style cabs using sapele, & flamed maple trim.  His has a flamed anigre wood front.

Just a thought to consider. I'm not saying you should do this.

With respect, Tubenit

[bmccowan]

I also am not a fan of EL84 amps - same reasons that Tubenit gives. Lord knows I've tried: 18W, AC15L, Carmen Ghia, Spitfire (slow learner, eh?) I built an amp similar in many ways to that Texas Raptor, but no reverb - its kind of a cathode biased 6V6 Plexi. I just played it last night for the first time in a couple of years. I had forgotten how good it sounds.

[sjcasas]

I did note that you don't want to build another PR.
...But have you considered a Single channel AB763, beefed up PS and 20W plus O/P Tx with (of course 1x12") in the Princeton Cabinet.
You could use Mosfet buffering/Drive because you are one Tube Short.
That way you get a Gutsy amp in a Princeton Cabinet with 12" speaker (and proven designs from our colleagues) 
My thoughts, I've done it (with a custom Toroid P/T and Bridge Rectifier with a fairly Stiff Power Supply).
Kind Regards
Mirek

I have considered that, and other designs... like how the first Boogie amp was something they crammed into a Princeton chassis as a joke and Santana loved it.
I am interested in a single channel Deluxe Reverb in a Princeton chassis... And I don't need or want the tremolo.

[sjcasas]

I have never been happy with any EL84 amp that I've owned or built. I've never bonded with that tube. I've never been able to get a smooth tone and they've always sounded too harsh to me.

Since you already use 6V6's in your PR's ............ what about building a Marshall style amp with 6V6's instead with a one tube reverb?   

I've liked the 12DW7 for the reverb tube but 12AT7 or 12AX7 work fine also.

I built one like this maybe 15 yrs ago for my son and he loves it.

If you built it cathode biased using a 300-0-300  140ma PT, then you could use either 6V6's or 6L6's or 5881's in it. I have two amps currently where I've taken that approach.     (IF you didn't want tube rectification, then I'd use a 275-0-275 PT)

The paralleled V1 gives about 30% more gain without increasing floor noise.

Emminence Cannabis Rex or Warehouse ET65 would be good speakers for this amp design.

I couldn't find a picture of my son's amp handy, but we built a cab for his that was a copy of one of my tweed style cabs using sapele, & flamed maple trim.  His has a flamed anigre wood front.

Just a thought to consider. I'm not saying you should do this.

With respect, Tubenit

Y'know... I haven't been too impressed with the few EL84 amps I have played through either. Harsh and cold... brittle. And I have replaced the rectifiers in all my Princeton Reverbs with solid-state plugins, for more stiffness and punch. I have a Super Reverb that I can't stand because of the spongy rectifier tube. Haven't had a chance to try a SS plugin because it is currently 1400 miles South of me.

Really nice looking amp! Interesting circuit... is it called the Texas Raptor? Is it somewhere upwards of 20 watts? How's it sound for lead tones?

[Willabe]

I have considered that, and other designs... like how the first Boogie amp was something they crammed into a Princeton chassis as a joke and Santana loved it.

The circuit Randall Smith used in that amp was a tweed 5F6A Bassman. 

[Willabe]

I have a Super Reverb that I can't stand because of the spongy rectifier tube.

I gigged with a BF SR for years, had a GZ34 rectifier tube, it wasn't spongy. Had a little give at higher volume, but I wouldn't call it spongy at all.

Those amps, SR's, do have a fairly stiff(er) power supply because of the bigger PT than in all the other 2 x 6L6 Fender amps.

Unless you have a 1 of the latter silver face SR's? They use a 5U4 rectifier tube. If so, put a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier tube in, that should help.

Haven't had a chance to try a SS plugin because it is currently 1400 miles South of me.

Be careful trying a SS rectifier in a SR, they already have ~470dcv on the power tube plates.

[sjcasas]

I have a Super Reverb that I can't stand because of the spongy rectifier tube.

I gigged with a BF SR for years, had a GZ34 rectifier tube, it wasn't spongy. Had a little give at higher volume, but I wouldn't call it spongy at all.

Those amps, SR's, do have a fairly stiff(er) power supply because of the bigger PT than in all the other 2 x 6L6 Fender amps.

Unless you have a 1 of the latter silver face SR's? They use a 5U4 rectifier tube. If so, put a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier tube in, that should help.

Haven't had a chance to try a SS plugin because it is currently 1400 miles South of me.

Be careful trying a SS rectifier in a SR, they already have ~470dcv on the power tube plates.

It is a 1965... It was like a museum piece, untouched by filthy technician hands. I replaced the E-caps, added 3-prong cord, and that's it! Sounds great, but spongy. Was planning to try a GZ34, or a SS Weber copper cap, but I horse traded it to a friend. After I moved, he wanted to sell it back to me... which he did, and now I just have to get it home!

[tubenit]

OK, if I were building a Texas Raptor for myself or a friend today ........... this is the approach I'd take.

Compare the schematic with the layout, if there is a discrepancy ........... go with the schematic.  CHECK for errors!

It sounds great playing rhythm or lead, IMO.  My son really doesn't use/need an OD to get mild overdrive.

With 6V6's probably around 14w ........ with 5881's maybe around 21w?

With respect,  Tubenit

[dogburn]

I built what's basically a single channel Deluxe Reverb with reverb but no tremolo, and it's plenty loud and not too heavy. I based it on Rob Robinette's Blackvibe AB763 - basically combining his Blackvibe Reverb with his Blackvibe 6V6. If you are interested in that, here's the direct link: https://robrobinette.com/RR763_BLACKVIBE.htm#Blackvibe_Reverb

I used an old solid state Univox U65RN as a donor, using the chassis and cabinet, and it takes a 12" speaker. It presented challenges as far as space and layout, but worked.

I don't think I've ever turned it up past 5. It's got plenty of power to keep up with a drummer, bass, and second guitar.

[sjcasas]

OK, if I were building a Texas Raptor for myself or a friend today ........... this is the approach I'd take.

Compare the schematic with the layout, if there is a discrepancy ........... go with the schematic.  CHECK for errors!

It sounds great playing rhythm or lead, IMO.  My son really doesn't use/need an OD to get mild overdrive.

With 6V6's probably around 14w ........ with 5881's maybe around 21w?

With respect,  Tubenit

Too cool! Thanks so much!

[mresistor]

Hi I built one for a friend, I didn't like it much, I sort of sounded like a Marshall. He likes it a lot.  He plays rock n roll old stye..
I have also built a Sluckey Dual Lite and like it very much, especially the AC15 channel.  I think that circuit would be great with reverb added. It' nothing like a Marshall though.   


If you are after the JCM800 sound I would recommend looking at Robinettes JCM800 6V6. I recently built one of his JCM800 micros with EF80s and it is really nice and Marshally.
Tubenit's work is a great source for installing a one tube reverb into cicruits and would probably work with the JCM800.  https://robrobinette.com/RR2104_Master_Volume_Micro.htm#JCM800_6V6

[bmccowan]

Hi I built one for a friend, I didn't like it much, I sort of sounded like a Marshall. He likes it a lot.  He plays rock n roll old stye..
I have also built a Sluckey Dual Lite and like it very much, especially the AC15 channel.  I think that circuit would be great with reverb added. It' nothing like a Marshall though.   

If you are after the JCM800 sound I would recommend looking at Robinettes JCM800 6V6. I recently built one of his JCM800 micros with EF80s and it is really nice and Marshally.
Tubenit's work is a great source for installing a one tube reverb into cicruits and would probably work with the JCM800.  https://robrobinette.com/RR2104_Master_Volume_Micro.htm#JCM800_6V6

"It sort of sounded like a Marshall." Well, yes - those two amps, the Plexi 6V6, and the cathode biased Plexi 6V6 are all variations on a theme. One could easily mix and match snippets of the circuits. Funny how taste in amps differs. So much depends on the type of music you play, the pickups you use, and the size of the room.

[mresistor]

BCM - AFAIK   the Stout is based on a Marshall 1974X or  in laymans terms  an 18w Marshall of which I commented "sounds somewhat like a Marshall to me".  I have a Marshall 18watt to compare it to. It sounded different to me, had some growl to it at a volume level that my 18w amps lack. It's simply different in sound. YMMV The op asked for opinions from people who have built and played one.  Not sure about the correlation that it seems you made to a JCM800 2204 Marshall which I do know the sound of. ??

[bmccowan]

mresistor - I probably should have asked what amp you were referring to when you said you built one for a friend. The previous posts were about the Texas Raptor and other 6V6 amps so I assumed you were carrying on that discussion. Its the Texas Raptor and the other Marshally 6V6 amps I was referring to as variations on a theme.
I agree that the 18watt EL84 variations are different beasts. I don't like them much either.

[mresistor]

I think it's the Stout w/Reverb tone stack that makes it different. Reminds me of a tweedy like a 5F10 Harvard.

[sjcasas]

Okay, all this convo, and research, leads me to these specs for my next build:



Single channel
Reverb
Fits in Princeton Reverb chassis
SS rectifier
2x 6v6 for upwards of 22W
No tremolo
Deluxe Reverb xfmr's
Standard Fender reverb circuit
and hopefully, Hoffman makes the board.


Seems like the Blackvibe 6v6 would do, but I would have to improvise the Reverb.
The JCM800 6v6 also is close, but again, no Reverb.
Anyone know of an established circuit that would fit this bill without *me* having to do any math/engineering?
I'm not saying I *cant* do it... I just don't wanna, and it would take 6 months longer and my daughter would lose interest.


Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

[Willabe]

Our host, Doug, makes/sells a Princeton Reverb, no trem eyelet/turret board.

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_PrincetonReverb_NoTremolo.pdf

Scroll down on any page in this forum and you'll see links for different things that Doug put there. One of them is Tube Amp Library. There's several different amp builds in there with BOM's, schematic, layout drawing, and more. The Princeton Reverb No Trem is in there.

https://el34world.com/schematics.htm

You know your going to have to enlarge the PT cut out in the chassis if you get a Princeton Reverb (PR) chassis. It can be done, but you need a few tools to do it, some experience working with metal would be very helpful. 

[sjcasas]

Our host, Doug, makes/sells a Princeton Reverb, no trem eyelet/turret board.

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_PrincetonReverb_NoTremolo.pdf

Scroll down on any page in this forum and you'll see links for different things that Doug put there. One of them is Tube Amp Library. There's several different amp builds in there with BOM's, schematic, layout drawing, and more. The Princeton Reverb No Trem is in there.

https://el34world.com/schematics.htm

You know your going to have to enlarge the PT cut out in the chassis if you get a Princeton Reverb (PR) chassis. It can be done, but you need a few tools to do it, some experience working with metal would be very helpful.

I saw the PR no trem... It's gonna be 12 watts. I need 20+... I know I can use DR iron and mod the PI, or something, but like I said, I don't want to experiment. I know someone has already done this, and ironed out the kinks. If I have to go through a bunch of frustrating and time-consuming trial-and-error Arkansas Engineering, my daughter will lose interest.

[Lectroid]

I'm late to the party but my experience may be worth noting. My last winter's amp was supposed to be an 18W, and I had some vague idea of adding a reverb somehow.  Looked at the Hoffman 18W Stout, even bought the Hoffman turret board. But somehow during the building, (with lots of suggestions from tubenit,) it morphed into more of a Marshall 1974 with Marshall tone stack, and reverb.  I wanted preamp and power amp gain controls available and used a post-PI master volume he suggested. I also implemented the one-tube 12DW7 reverb you see on his Raptor schematic.  I used a 17" inch chassis but for fun I tried a short 8Ω input reverb tank.  Speaker is a Jensen C12R, just a basic journeyman unit.  Not a speaker connoisseur at all so I can't so more that it sounds good to me.

The sound:  Is quite pleasant to me.  At low settings on both the Gain and MV controls, there is lots of clean headroom.  Turning up the Gain control to 4-5 brings out that classic Marshall/Les Paul OD sound.  I can dial in any amount of smooth-to-gritty OD with the Gain control, and then just adjust the overall output  volume with the Master.  At true bedroom levels you can get that nice Sunshine of Your Love tone.

It's only my 4th amp but I like it a lot.  The reverb is deep as you want but a little more 'feathery' than Fender reverb.

[bmccowan]

Our host, Doug, makes/sells a Princeton Reverb, no trem eyelet/turret board.

https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_PrincetonReverb_NoTremolo.pdf

Scroll down on any page in this forum and you'll see links for different things that Doug put there. One of them is Tube Amp Library. There's several different amp builds in there with BOM's, schematic, layout drawing, and more. The Princeton Reverb No Trem is in there.

https://el34world.com/schematics.htm

You know your going to have to enlarge the PT cut out in the chassis if you get a Princeton Reverb (PR) chassis. It can be done, but you need a few tools to do it, some experience working with metal would be very helpful.

I saw the PR no trem... It's gonna be 12 watts. I need 20+... I know I can use DR iron and mod the PI, or something, but like I said, I don't want to experiment. I know someone has already done this, and ironed out the kinks. If I have to go through a bunch of frustrating and time-consuming trial-and-error Arkansas Engineering, my daughter will lose interest.

You might want to read this https://el34world.com/Hoffman/AB763Notes.htm to see how easy it would be to up the wattage to Deluxe Reverb levels. Fender did not change much from model to model. And you will get help here along the way. No Arkansas Engineering (whatever that is) needed.

[Willabe]

I saw the PR no trem... It's gonna be 12 watts. I need 20+... I know I can use DR iron and mod the PI, ....

No, it's not gonna be 12w. (And PR's were 16w.) Just use Deluxe Reverb iron set, you'll get 20w.

And you don't need to change the PI to get the 20W.

[dogburn]

Sorry if this ends up being duplicate posts - I tried to post 10 minutes ago and got error messages.

So here's what I did to combine Rob Robinette's Blackvibe 6V6 with his Blackvibe Reverb to get what should be an AB763 Deluxe Reverb single channel with reverb but with no trem. Sorry I didn't do a schematic, but the layout shows where I adjusted a few resistor or cap values. It works well, sounds great, and is very loud.

[sjcasas]

Sorry if this ends up being duplicate posts - I tried to post 10 minutes ago and got error messages.

So here's what I did to combine Rob Robinette's Blackvibe 6V6 with his Blackvibe Reverb to get what should be an AB763 Deluxe Reverb single channel with reverb but with no trem. Sorry I didn't do a schematic, but the layout shows where I adjusted a few resistor or cap values. It works well, sounds great, and is very loud.

Man, I think that is exactly what I'm looking for!
Thanks!

[sjcasas]

Well, here's where I'm at:
Princeton Reverb Chassis
Deluxe Reverb PT and OT
nix the tremolo
use the 1/2 12ax7 from the trem for LTP PI
Keep the tube rectifier, replace with copper cap if I need to.

Basically what dogburn just posted...

I guess I'll ask Mr. Hoffman to make me a board, and I'll start working on the chassis and Iron for now.


Thanks for all the info and suggestions!

[SEL49]

You may want to take a look at this before locking in...

     https://sluckeyamps.com/misc/AC-15R_Lite.pdf

[glass54]

Deluxe Reverb PT and OT

Great Choice sj I think adding the Mid control was a good idea, as you have the room. I used 10k, some people use 100k, gives a "Raw" control.
I built the full 1 Channel Deluxe in my own chassis (using Doug's Board) BUT if I do it again I will not use the JJ "4 pack" capacitor for C1.
I would build a dogbox something like the original Deluxe Reverb and use F+T 47u 500V caps for first 2 electros.
Gives you more flexibility with earthing and probably better quality caps.
Look forward to your progress.
Kind regards
Mirek

[mresistor]

Well, here's where I'm at:
Princeton Reverb Chassis
Deluxe Reverb PT and OT
nix the tremolo
use the 1/2 12ax7 from the trem for LTP PI
Keep the tube rectifier, replace with copper cap

Before you get too far into it, consider getting a Deluxe Reverb spec'd stand up power transformer.  Then
 you will not have to mess with enlarging the pt opening and it will create much more room in the chassis for the DR board. It will mount far enough to the side of the chassis so it is unlikely to interfere with a speaker mounting. Hammond is a good source.


Thanks for all the info and suggestions!

[sjcasas]

Well, here's where I'm at:
Princeton Reverb Chassis
Deluxe Reverb PT and OT
nix the tremolo
use the 1/2 12ax7 from the trem for LTP PI
Keep the tube rectifier, replace with copper cap

Before you get too far into it, consider getting a Deluxe Reverb spec'd stand up power transformer.  Then
 you will not have to mess with enlarging the pt opening and it will create much more room in the chassis for the DR board. It will mount far enough to the side of the chassis so it is unlikely to interfere with a speaker mounting. Hammond is a good source.


Thanks for all the info and suggestions!

Then what would I do with that gaping hole? I think the turret board I will get (single-channel, no tremolo) will fit just fine. Might even have room for bias pot and cap. And I'm not afraid of enlarging the PT hole. I have everything I need to do it right.

[mresistor]

There isn't a gaping hole left when a standup pt is mounted  - it covers the hole nicely.  Some people have used that area to them make a small cap board or just leave it.
But if you don't layout and make your own boards then its a moot point.


Carry on   hope to see your progress.

[SEL49]

You have 4 PRs, one DR, and a SR. I'm surprised you are even considering anything Fenderish.

[dogburn]

Not sure why my post earlier today didn't work, but anyway, here it is (more or less) again.

A few notes on my AB763 build: I think I uploaded the DIYLC file to have Hoffman make the eyelet board, but had to tweak it and try a few times for the holes to get properly placed (I'd have to check on that). I ended up using the JJ cap can because of space issues - it was a tight fit and nowhere for a doghouse to go. Also used a standup transformer for the same reason.

And I did the mid-raw pot according to Rob Robinette, and that gave it some really useful additional tonal range.

Keep us posted on how the project with your daughter goes.

[sjcasas]

You have 4 PRs, one DR, and a SR. I'm surprised you are even considering anything Fenderish.

I have more than that! But I'm a player, and I have two daughters that are players.
I have played all the newer Marshalls, AC-15, Orange, Mesa Dual Caliber, Modelers... I've played MANY amps and NEVER fell in love with any of them.
There WAS a 50W Marshall years ago that I could have spent more time with... it was a plexi.
Once you find what works, why change?

[AlNewman]

I've had good luck with EL84's, but I use them within their voltage specs.  I think dollar for dollar, they deliver a lot more than a 6V6 in terms of clarity, volume, punch.
I also prefer fixed bias amps, which are hard to find as far as a mass produced EL84 'template'.

[dwinstonwood]

This is totally out in left field, but I had actually thought about adding the One-Tube-Reverb to this.

It was originally a single-channel AC15, then I swapped out the EF86 for a 5879, then swapped the EL84's and EZ81 for 6V6's and a 5Y3GT. It could easily be done with DR iron and a SS rectifier.

[Willabe]

Schematic, not layout drawing please.

[bmccowan]

DWW, I don't know if it was intentional, but you kind of backed into a single channel Gibson GA-40. I did the same a while back, I converted a Hammond A0-39 to a single channel AC-15; then first modded it to a 5879 preamp, and then changed the power tubes to 6CM6 which are 9 pin equivalents to 6V6s.

[dwinstonwood]

Sorry!

DWW, I don't know if it was intentional, but you kind of backed into a single channel Gibson GA-40. I did the same a while back, I converted a Hammond A0-39 to a single channel AC-15; then first modded it to a 5879 preamp, and then changed the power tubes to 6CM6 which are 9 pin equivalents to 6V6s.

bmccowan, I believe I was following your advice in another thread, maybe one where I was planning to use 7C5's?

[bmccowan]

bmccowan, I believe I was following your advice in another thread

Always dangerous
I admire your desire to experiment with different circuits, it's so much more satisfying than following a fully developed schematic.