What are my legal responsibilities if I sell an amp?

[Lectroid]

Got an offer to sell one of my amps. I'd like to accept, but what are my legal liabilities as an small builder of amps?  I found a couple of threads on this from 2010 (dated?) and this year, acheld mentions a 'discaimer of liability'.  Has anyone else used anything like that, or have a sample?  I'm not trying to become an amp producer, just maybe sell one a year let's say. 

I believe the amp (a BFPR) is safe--I have followed every best practice on wiring and grounding I could find.  I'd have no qualms about playing it anywhere as long as the 3-prong outlet I'm using is correctly grounded.

Does anyone have any other tips/advice about dealing with the liability issue when selling?  I'd really appreciate any guidance.

Thanks!

[Rontone]

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9692

I'm not sure if its the same in the US but I don't think it would apply selling just one "custom unit", it may only apply really when you are selling a product intended to be produced in multiple units?

Over here in the UK, PAT testing, portable appliance test, is only legally required for workplaces and housing for health and safety requirements, I wouldn't have to do a test for one single amplifier sale

I'm self employed and just sell through eBay and only really do used items, I see a lot of 'new' or custom homemades sold on there, I think technically the second hand items also are meant to be safe too, yet I see lots of amps described as 'used' but in the description say spares or repairs or simply 'untested', which then probably would open you up to liability, as I see amps with loose and really dodgy wires, frosty blown tubes and missing transformers sold as 'working' all the time on there

[acheld]

From my talking with attorney friends, there is no escaping liability claims, even with a disclaimer in which you disclose all known risks and potential "defects" to the seller, who then agrees to accept these risks and to not hold you responsible.

It's really up to you to decide what level of risk you want to accept.   For example, if a close friend wanted to buy one of my amps, I'd probably accept, but would have a talk with him about these issues.   Not legal advice, and certainly not what my lawyer buds would recommend.   But I would do it.

That said, I've come to the conclusion that dismantling most of my projects works best for me.  I re-use the iron, the large caps, and many of the more expensive parts.   

So, no simple answer.

[shooter]

the world would be much further ahead without lawyers n tax men


my disclaimer;


"This product has NOT been inspected or tested by ANY guvmint agency, therefore you MUST accept it WILL KILL YOU, if however it does not kill you, I hope you find this product acceptable and enjoyable"


when you have nothing, you have nothing to loose 

[tubeswell]

All the amps that I've made and sold have been tested by an independent electrical appliance tester and tagged with a compliant registered 'tag' as safe in terms of:
1) having zero DC resistance between the chassis and the mains plug earth pin
2) having 'infinite' resistance between the mains plug live/phase pin and the mains plug earth pin


which is the standard 'tag test' for electrical appliances in this neck of the global woods.


However, even that might not prevent a claim for liability being filed in a Court of law (because all it takes for that to happen is a lawyer to file a claim that starts a legal process). But it provides a level of legal defence against negligence. Having noted that, if you want more belts and braces form of 'protection' against liability claims, it may help to take out an insurance policy for professional indemnity and public liability insurance. Where I am, to really put your mind at ease, you have to maintain that sort of insurance policy for the next 7 years after you stop selling amps, to put you legally beyond the 7-year period for claims in the statute of limitations  - but even that has holes in it for an astute lawyer to exploit (and it costs you extra money to maintain the insurance policy for that period of time).

Or you could just sell the thing as-is and let the devil take the hindmost.

[kagliostro]

Sell It this way

FOR PARTS OR REPAIR ONLY – SOLD AS IS
This device is sold as non-working, defective, or incomplete. No guarantees are made regarding its condition, safety, or suitability for any purpose.
The buyer acknowledges that the device may pose electrical hazards and assumes full responsibility for any use, repair, or modification.
The seller shall not be held liable for any damage

 AS IS – No warranty – Use at your own risk, or loss resulting from its use or misuse

Franco

[Jennings]

I've been pondering this for some time too from a UK perspective.  I could be wrong (definitely haven't had professional confirmation as such), but if you've built it then you'd technically need UKCA making and a self-declaration in the UK.  The appliance uses over 50VAC, so doesn't count as a low-voltage unit.  Here I think you'd technically need to follow the expectations of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 2016, which also points to certain wiring requirements / standards and various safety orientated elements in the unit.

[pdf64]

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9692

I'm not sure if its the same in the US but I don't think it would apply selling just one "custom unit", it may only apply really when you are selling a product intended to be produced in multiple units? ...

My understanding is that it makes no difference if a product is a one off custom order, or a batch of 1M; to be sold legally, everything in the EEA needs a CE designator (or equivalent national mark eg UKCA), which must be backed up by appropriate documentation in its design file.
The saving grace in the UK is that the relevant legislation (WEEE, RoHS, Low Voltage, EMC) covered in the design file is mainly the responsibility of local councils to manage compliance / prosecution, and they're too strapped for cash to bother with small fry.
I've no idea how small builders in UK / EU manage this.
I doubt non compliance would ever be a problem per se, unless something went disastrously wrong. Then it could be a massive criminal and civil legal liability.

I suppose you could try describing your newly built amp as 'spares or repair, non working etc', but I doubt it would stand up in court.

It's a massive PIA to our sector.

[bmccowan]

You are in the U.S., eh? I agree with the others that there is no escaping some level of liability. If we build it and sell it, and it causes harm, we can be sued. If a faulty part caused the harm, the part manufacturer, supplier, and we can all be sued. The outcome is usually a settlement.
The safest paths involve selling the amp as used, and a reproduction of vintage equipment. And to carry personal liability coverage. It's usually possible to add $1M in coverage to a homeowner policy that likely is limited to $300K in coverage. If you decide to offer any safety advice, it should be comprehensive and the new owner should read and sign.
Its a mean ol nasty world. I have a close relative who is a liability lawyer. The stories are mind numbing. Recently a kid jumped off the side of a dock at a lake. She hit bottom and got messed up. The camp owner was successfully sued for not having a sign warning of shallow water!!

[dogburn]

Out of curiosity, what are the things that could go wrong that the builder could be found liable for? Of course, someone could sue for anything if they find a willing lawyer.

If we are only talking physical harm to people, of course there's electrical shock if someone dismantles the amp and sticks their fingers in the wrong place. They could potentially get shocked through their instrument if grounding on the input AC goes awry. They could die if they drop the amp in the tub while taking a bath or plug the amp in somehow so it's not grounded and do something like what killed Keith Relf. Many of those scenarios are the fault of the user and unlikely to stand up in court if the amp builder is accused. So would the AC safety ground coming loose be the most likely thing you could be truly liable for? Or are there other things?

I also know the EU requirements now have Fender putting metal grilles over/in front of the tubes, so getting burned by touching a tube might be another potential issue.

[tubeswell]

Having to get legal representation in Court as a respondent in a liability case may have nothing to do with how safe the amp actually is; rather it’s about the plaintiff’s lawyer pursuing every possible avenue for compensation for their client - whether the harm done to them is actually your fault or not (or even if the Judge ultimately finds you not culpable after all is said and done). Having to file legal responses and getting legal help with defence still costs. And that’s what liability insurance is for. But even insurers look for every loophole to avoid paying out on claims. The liability insurance and legal sector exist to make money out of this.