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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Solder!  (Read 8080 times)

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Offline jasperok

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Solder!
« on: April 30, 2008, 09:19:13 am »
I am so happy!!
Today i received some "cardas quad eucitic solder"
The stuff is amazing!!
I never thought i'd hear myself getting excited about a solder but i actually feel like  my soldering ability has increased 10 fold.
My soldering iron looks nice and chromed and all the joints are firm/shiny/conductive.
Does anyone know why it is so much better??
idont know much about them so its only by chance i picked this stuff up.
i really am amazed!!

Offline RicharD

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 12:54:04 pm »
Is that ROHS stuff?  I got a spool of ROHS crap.  Smells wrong, melts wrong, and the joints look cold even though their not.  I immediately stocked up on several pounds  of the good ol 60/40 lead stuff.

Offline jasperok

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 01:00:19 pm »
i got the quad eutecticstuff.
maybe the tri would be fin - i dont understand the difference.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring=Solder+and+Flux&content_id=19

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2008, 03:34:22 am »
Quote
Today i received some "cardas quad eucitic solder"
The stuff is amazing!!

Now a thread about audiophile solder... Can you spell hogwash?

Cardas, TRT, WBT et al. actually pick some industrial solder and relabel it.

Get a Weller station and some Kester SnAg3.5Cu0.9 solder, set the Weller to a tip temp of 350° C and you'll be nearly done... You may of course prefer other stations and solders depending on taste, habits, vices and/or local availability, but any pro station used with SnAg(3.5-3.8)Cu(0.7-1) solder will be AOK.
 
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Does anyone know why it is so much better??

It is *NOT* better than any equivalent industrial solder retailing for 10 to 100 times less. Do you really believe that Cardas has R&D resources and actually manufactures solder?

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2008, 03:40:07 am »
Quote
I got a spool of ROHS crap.

Lead-free solder isn't crap, you just have to use it properly.

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Smells wrong

Must have been a solder using a water-based flux, which allows for easier board cleaning but is less effective than rosin.

Most solder formulas are also available with a standard rosin-based flux.

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melts wrong

Higher melting point. Use the right iron set at the right temp - usually around 350° C.
 
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the joints look cold even though their not.

Standard with all Ag-based lead-free solders: joints become matte as they enter the solidus phase.


Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2008, 03:43:59 am »
Quote
i got the quad eutecticstuff.
maybe the tri would be fin - i dont understand the difference.

The Tri doen't use lead and is supposed to be RoHS compliant.


Offline RicharD

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 10:15:35 am »
I fingered out the higher melting temp all on my own.  That's fine when working on turrets with good hookup wire.  It's not so easy when working on on a 1970's amp with a light PCB, + it doesn't mix well with older solder.  You really have to clean the spot before using lead free solder on an old joint.  The finished look is really deceptive and my eye sight is failing.

I am environmentally conscience, which may be just an excuse to throw nothing away.  I use a lot of reclaimed wire whenever possible.  I do understand the ideology behind ROHS.  I think it's great for capacitors and other parts that will fail with time and eventually end up in a landfill.  Granted a certain percentage of solder ends up on the sponge and if you add it all up, it equals a lot of lead in the trash.  I just don't like the new solder.

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 12:31:59 pm »
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it doesn't mix well with older solder.

Yup. I use standard leaded solder with a dedicated station for maintenance/repairs.

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I do understand the ideology behind ROHS.

It's another stupid idea by eurocrats. There are gazillions of sources of lead and heavy metal but most got exemptions.

And we're of the lifetime build school, aren't we? So nothing gets trashed...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 02:39:12 pm by FYL »

Offline RicharD

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 01:40:26 pm »
I read somewhere (and I don't remember where so call this hearsay) that because of the higher temp required to manufacture lead free solder, it actually has a higher impact on energy consumption and greenhouse gas therefore offsetting the benefits of being lead free.  I still think the businesses cranking out the latest computer PCB that will become antiquated in 10 years or less should be building lead free.  Us tube-heads should be exempt.

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 02:54:51 pm »
Quote
it actually has a higher impact on energy consumption and greenhouse gas therefore offsetting the benefits of being lead free.

Higher temp, shorter cycles. I guess that the energy eq. is the same. The main problems with lead-free are mechanical: bonds aren't as good w/o reflowing and moist junctions get spiky - a big problem with surface mounted components- or flaky.

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I still think the businesses cranking out the latest computer PCB that will become antiquated in 10 years or less should be building lead free.  

Today's computers are designed for a lifetime of 18 to 36 months and thanks to Adobe and Microsoft get obsolete as soon as you use them.

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Us tube-heads should be exempt.

We actually are: vintage gear, repros and repairs can be exempted from Euro RoHS.

Offline jasperok

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 08:12:07 am »
Sorry FYL i did not mean to offend or sound incredulous.

only post what happened for me.

i genuinely found the solder better for me -

i don't know why, i know very very little about electronics, have little experience.

only experience in being fairly average at soldering!!
and now all of a sudden it seems very easy to solder get the good looking joints/ have the solder melt easily.

i put it down to the new solder

maybe (by your reaction, probably) i was wrong.


Offline RicharD

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 09:20:36 am »
I don't think he was offended by your post but I do believe he is offended  (as am I) by Cardas in general.  I think they sell "snake oil" products.  I don't know for certain because I haven't purchased anything from them, but their capacitors look an awful lot like Solens that have been relabeled and had their leads gold plated.  http://www.soniccraft.com/cardas_capacitors.htm  HELLO!!!! $205.00 for a capacitor........ I don't think so.

I bet if you got a plain ordinary roll of Kester 60/40 solder, you'd have the same results.

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 11:45:47 am »
Quote
Sorry FYL i did not mean to offend or sound incredulous.

No offence taken.

Quote
i genuinely found the solder better for me -

Could very well be, but any properly used solder will work as well and cost way less.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 11:46:45 am by FYL »

Offline FYL

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 11:59:52 am »
Quote
I think they sell "snake oil" products.

Just like all so-called "audiophile" companies which adress people with more money than neurons.

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their capacitors look an awful lot like Solens that have been relabeled and had their leads gold plated

Hmm. The Cardas seem to be canned, while the SCR (the French company manufacturing Solen caps on an OEM basis) are wrapped with epoxy-filled ends. Different manufacturer.




Offline jasperok

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 12:26:24 pm »
lol - you guys know more than me -
i didnt even know it was audiophile solder - or who the hell cardas are! i thought it was just a type of solder that had silver in it to lower the melting ponint :-[

Offline tubetek

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 09:56:22 am »
For my personal experience, "EUTECTIC" or 63-37 solder (as opposed to 60-40) is easier to get good results with because the temps at wich it goes from solid to liquid to solid is only a degree or two difference. Since it solidifies almost instantly when the heat (iron) is removed there's less chance of moving the wire/joint/component while cooling; less chance of a cold solder joint. Even more reason to get a temp-controlled solder station! I'm not a big ROHS solder fan myself because it makes me have to use separate tips/irons AND keep track of them. I have at least one iron that I can no longer buy non-ROHS replacement tips for...GRRR!!
tubetek

Offline Hemi526

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 05:46:47 pm »
I have used both and settled into the 63/37. I like it a lot
Nothing wrong with a little dirt

Offline PRR

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 02:28:21 am »
> "cardas quad eucitic solder"

Eutectic is easier to use, for some people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_point

Water goes from solid ice to liquid water.

50:50 lead-tin solder goes through a "paste" phase, not liquid not solid. This is very useful for "shaping" a joint, as in some plumbing and roofing soldering.

Anybody here know Apple Jack? Squeeze apple juice. Let it ferment to Hard Cider. This is ~~3% alcohol and the rest is water (and color/flavor). Put it out on the porch in January. If you catch it right, it turns to "slush". The water is frozen hard but the alcohol is still liquid. Pour the alcohol into a liquor jug, leaving the water behind. This gives a higher-proof (though not high-proof compared to distilling) spirit beverage. 50:50 solder goes through such a "slush" phase.

Also, the more lead and less tin, the lower the cost. Lead is cheap, tin is very expensive. If you are packing a 4-inch sewer pipe joint, you need a pound of filler, low-cost is important.

In hand-soldering, cost of solder is NOT important. (That does not mean you should buy $5 solder for $25 just because it has a fancy brand name.)

Traditional electronic solder is 60% tin 40% lead. It has a low melting point. It has a small "pasty phase". This can be used, by experienced workers, to smooth the joint. However, inexperienced workers tend to move the wire while the joint is half-hard, which gives a joint which may look good (if you don't know what to look for) but is really all broken-up under the surface.

63:37 solder has a slightly lower melting point, but also it goes from liquid to solid with almost no pasty phase.

Wikipedia claims that 63:37 is the alloy of choice for electronics assembly, and that 60:40 is nearly the same. I recall when 60:40 was the only common alloy, and do not agree that it is "almost identical" to 63:37. Close, but not the same. It is like making biscuits: as you get close to an "ideal proportion", small changes matter. 60:40 is off-eutectic just enough to matter.

I agree with reducing the amount of Lead in our land-fills. I believe the amount of Lead used in hobby electronics is insignificant. I do not like no-Lead solder. Anyway I have a lifetime supply of the leaded stuff. I think most hobbyists may as well use the Lead solder. Buy 4 ounces at a time. You do not want to, like me, die with a couple pounds of unused lead for your heirs to clean up. When you find yourself on your second or third small spool of leaded solder, you might want to try no-lead... you are no longer an occasional solderer.

If you have children around, do NOT NOT NOT let them play with solder. If your children are as sneaky as I was as a child, you should probably remove all lead solder from the house and stick with no-lead. Even that is not 101% safe (all metals have some toxicity), and should be kept out of reach or warned-against as much as possible.

Apparently there are the older high-temp no-lead solders (which must be used for plumbing; I can't get lead plumbing solder); and some lower temperature no-lead solders for electronics which have a high Silver content. Since Silver is even more expensive than Tin (not a lot more), this must be a burden on high-volume hand-soldering. The amount of solder an amp-hobbyist uses, the cost of Silver is a non-issue.

Solder does not smell. Flux stinks. The classic "rosin" is highly purified pine-tree sap. It is a very complicated mix of organic compounds, nobody really knows what-all is in there. It works. It has a familiar smell. It is generally accepted as "safe", because thousands of electronics workers have not shown a syndrome. Some people have specific reaction to rosin smoke and should just avoid it. Water-Wash solder is something else. I see no need for it in tube-amp construction. Flux (electronics-grade) MAY remain on most assemblies and do zero harm. The exception is very high impedance (DC) PCBs in damp climates; also some SMD work which is too small to hand-solder (with common techniques), these may have to be de-fluxed. Rosin comes off great with harsh Freons, poorly with alcohol, turpentine may soften it but turp residue is as bad as the flux (worse because it has not been tested for electronics and may have mystery adulterants). There are other solvents, all illegal to dump in sewers or fields. WW flux comes off in warm water and is safe in sewer systems.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 02:34:40 am by PRR »

Offline bnwitt

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2008, 12:49:11 pm »
Quote
Anybody here know Apple Jack?..... It is like making biscuits

Ok, now I'm hungry and thirsty.  I have been using Kester 63/37 for some time now and bought lots of rolls so like PRR I'll never run out.  I am hoping to take it with me into the afterlife however so the kids won't have to mess with it.  They have to have amps in heaven or hell I think  ;)  It is a great solder far superior to 60/40 but either one is better than lead free.

Now for biscuits, I have recently found that there is a special blend as well.  Being a southern boy by upbringing, buttermilk biscuits have always been my favorite.  Recently I purchased some Kentucky biscuit mix from fathers country hams along with some of their naturally cured bacon.  Holy moly!  Lighter than air and like no biscuit I've ever eaten.  I'm hooked. ;D  And the bacon ain't bad either, just real smoky.  Great for cooking.  Now I'm really hungry.

http://www.fatherscountryhams.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KBM5LB


« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 11:14:52 pm by bnwitt »
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline Dynaflow

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Re: Solder!
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2008, 05:58:53 am »
 Heck I just been using a hakko 454 25watter and some ol' ratshack 60/40 but then again I'm not a tech nor all that sophisticated and the only kid in the house is my 22 year old stepson and if he eats solder, well shame on him and it'll save me a few bob on my food bill.. :D

Regards,

Dyna
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 06:01:39 am by Dynaflow »
Making the world deaf 18 watts at a time...

 


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