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Offline Hemi526

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tube tester
« on: May 04, 2008, 06:26:02 am »
  I am going to buy a used tube tester. Can you guys give me some suggestions of what to look for please?
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Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 11:56:27 am »
Quote
I am going to buy a used tube tester.

Please don't unless you trust the seller. Most so-called "used" tube testers are in dire need of a complete overhaul and full calibration.

Quote
Can you guys give me some suggestions of what to look for please?

What are you looking for? What do you intend to do with a tester?



Offline RicharD

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 12:14:43 pm »
Most so-called "used" tube testers are in dire need of a complete overhaul and full calibration.

Since it's Sunday, I'll give you an Amen.  I bought 2 dud B&K's and 1 dud Hickok tester on fleaBay.  I overhauled and calibrated the Hickok and returned the B&K's back to fleaBay as "in poor shape".  1 guy bought both of the B&K's and made 1 good tester out of the 2.


Offline kagliostro

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2008, 03:39:09 pm »
Hi friends  :)

I find out this Tube tester DIY schematic

http://www.leradiodisophie.it/Provavalvole%2011-2002.html

may be this is a good way to got one or is better to find an old one ??

Kagliostro
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Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2008, 03:56:24 pm »
Quote
I find out this Tube tester DIY schematic

This is a very basic emissions tester. Not what I would build or use.



Offline kagliostro

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2008, 04:14:14 pm »
OK

received message

Kagliostro  :)
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Offline Hemi526

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 07:33:57 pm »
Quote
Quote
I am going to buy a used tube tester.

Please don't unless you trust the seller. Most so-called "used" tube testers are in dire need of a complete overhaul and full calibration.

Quote
Can you guys give me some suggestions of what to look for please?

What are you looking for? What do you intend to do with a tester?



OK, Ill take your word for it and wont buy a used one from Fleabay anyway. If I do get one it will be from someone I trust.

  I planned on testing tubes with it, not trying to be a smart ass.  I dont plan on getting out of the amp building hobby. In fact I have been to a lot Ham fest and swap meets lately and im getting quite a collection. I now have a lot of tubes and dont know if they are good or not. I dont know how to use a tube tester but I can figure it out, unless I dont have one. What do you suggest?
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Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 04:46:28 am »
Quote
I planned on testing tubes with it

There are many possible tests and many testers.

Continuity testers. Basic filament test. Useless: you can do the same with a multimeter.

Emission testers. DC current test in diode mode (grids are connected to the anode, measurements are taken between it and cathode). Usually work at low voltages and can only give a rough Good/Bad reading. Can damage some tubes!

Dynamic emission testers. AC is applied to the grid and current is measured more precisely than in diode mode. Work at medium voltages. Usually safe. Eico use "dynamic conductance" for their dynamic emission testers but they are  not (trans)conductance testers.

Transconductance testers. Gain is measured by applying calibrated AC to the grid. Tubes are properly biased, medium working voltages.

Combo testers. Test emission and transconductance. A few models go up to 450V anode making them useful for real-world tests.

Useful features:

Gas and leakage tests. Some are basic (a panel light signalling Good/Bad usually calibrated at 20M or so), others allow for very precise measurements - quite useful as allowed leakage levels depend on the actual tube type. A small signal triode is OK if Rl > 1M for cathode to any other element and Ri > 10M between any other element while power tubes are considered OK if Rl > 500K HK and > 5M E.

Multisection tests. Some testers allow to measure dual or multiple sections w/o reconfiguration. Very useful for small signal double triodes or hybrid tubes.

Quote
In fact I have been to a lot Ham fest and swap meets lately

You can usually find some nice affordable testers at ham fests.


Offline ITSALLINTHEWOOD

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 09:18:46 pm »
I picked up a really good book by Alan Douglas, titled "Tube testers
and Classic Electronic Test Gear". It profiles practically every manufacturer for tube testers, component measurements and signal
measurements. It's published by Sonoran Publishing, LLC, Chandler,
Arizone 85226. Aw come on, you can get some good stuff on e-bay,
like this book. That's how I found out about the powers that be (this
web site) through a capacitor seller.

Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 01:51:36 pm »
Quote
I picked up a really good book by Alan Douglas, titled "Tube testers and Classic Electronic Test Gear"

A classic. Warmly recommended.


Offline jjasilli

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 02:01:07 pm »
I learned this hard way. For used or vintage test equipment that you plan to use:

* get a clean, tested unit, guaranteed to be in full working order at least upon delivery;
* calibrated;
* with all probes, connecting wires, accessories, etc.
* with manual
* preferably from a highly rated seller that's sold a lot of similar items.

You will pay more, but otherwise will be chasing down parts and arcane info forever.

Offline Hemi526

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 04:33:30 pm »
  Thanks FYL, I have seen some tub e testers at Ham fests but didnt feel comfortable in buying them because I didnt know who they were coming from, much like fleabay. Also I didnt know exactly what I needed to purchase, You have enlightened me and it will help
  Also I will see if I can find the book you are talking about ALLINTHEWOOD, I appreciate the help guys.
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Offline ITSALLINTHEWOOD

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 08:17:55 pm »
e-bay, Category: Books>Non-Fiction, type in the box: tube tester. You'll find it.  [smiley=guitar.gif]

Offline RicharD

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2008, 12:38:55 am »
I would suggest getting  Hickok.  Their layout makes the most since (to me) and there's a ton of documentation.  The most prevalent problems with old testers are worn out sockets and being out of callibration.  Changing a socket on a Hickok is a brave undertaking.  Callibration is simple.  Not that much can go wrong with a tester that can't be fixed other than a fried transformer or a totally trashed switch, neither of which you'll ever find.  A bum meter sucks bad too.  Mine has a loose switch and some solder joints had broken from it twisting.  There's only a pair of rectifier tubes, a short hand of caps, and a dozen resistors.  The rest is all wire.

That's basically what your up against with a used tester unless you're willing to drop the big bucks.  Sounds like you're like me and have a bunch of old tubes you'd like a clue to as if they work or not.  If that's the case, find something within your budget and roll the dice.

Offline jjasilli

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2008, 05:48:46 am »
I bought 2 sencore mighty mites.  The first was rusty, doesn't work and came with no manual.  That was part of my learning experience.  These inexpensive, simple meters will tell you if a tube is bad, but not really if it works well.  The reason is that they don't put full voltage on the plates.  So they can't test the full operation of the tube = transconductance.  But they will tell you if the tube is shorted or dangerous to use.  Once you know the tube is safe to plug in, you can test its full performance in your amp, as has been pointed out by PRR in similar threads.  A guaranteed functioning sencore with manual costs about $50.  Remember that some issues, like microphonics, are not detected by tube testers.

Hickock models will do the transconductance test.  But they cost several hundred to thousands of dollars.  For the hobbyist it's more cost effective to buy known good tubes!

Offline kagliostro

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 03:06:44 pm »
Hi  :)

May this be a better outline for a home build tube tester ????

http://xoomer.alice.it/iw2dgs/downloads/provavaire.pdf

Kagliostro

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Offline jjasilli

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 04:44:49 pm »
But will it do English tubes?   ;D

Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 05:19:56 pm »
Quote
May this be a better outline for a home build tube tester ????

Hmmm, not really. Still a basic old school tester.

What do we need? Very little.

A basic emissions tester is a set of adjustable power supplies - one for B+ (say 0 to 500V @ 200 mA max. preferably with a variable current limiter), one for bias (0 to -100V @ 5 mA max), one for heaters (0 to 24V @2A covers most tubes, go up to 5A if you want to play with valves). Very easy to build using modern silicon...

Adding Gm measurements is quite easy: just add a stable sine generator (say 5 KHz and 100 mV) and a 10R resistor in the B+ line with a 1:1 xformer across it. Delta grid voltage => delta plate current, 100 mV in => 1 mV across RB+ => 1K µmhos Gm. OK, Gm depends on the actual operating point, with Rp impacting the results but we're talking about RP's of a few K's min and a much smaller sense R so the results will be OK.

Gas tests can be also be easily added: insert a 100K to 1M resistor in the grid circuit. A leaky tube will show current across the R: 1 µA thru 1 M => 1 V change in bias and a measurable change in plate current.

Ditto for inter-element leaks. Break the cathode connection : if current still flows somewhat, there's a heater to cathode leak. Etc.

 Steve Bench has published ten years ago schemos for a nice tester - called the RAT, for rec.audio.tubes, once a great Usenet group. The underlying principles are still valid, but silicon is much better and the whole architecture can be greatly simplified.

http://members.aol.com/sbench101/#TubeTest


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Re: tube tester
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2008, 03:37:25 pm »
If you are looking to test guitar amp tubes.  PRR gave me advice on a Champ based tube tester.   I could not find it in the search section,  so here is the info from PRR:

Do you want to test "all" tubes?  
 
Or just guitar amp tubes?  
 
Build a small Champ. Open on a board so you can stick a voltmeter on any point. Keep supply voltage down: 250V is ample unless you really-really work only at absurd voltages.  
 
Base it in the AA764 Champ, with cathode caps. Omit the tone stack. Change the volume control to 100K Audio with a 500K series resistor, with a switch to short the resistor. Omit the 2,700 feedback resistor and replace the 47 with a short. Load it with known-good tubes and speaker and get to know it. Note the plate, screen, grid, and cathode voltages on each tube. (Would be neat to label these points with name and normal voltage.)  
 
Now any 12AX7 can be dropped in. Check voltages. If they are within 20% of "normal", the tube isn't grossly sick. Use the 500K resistor in series with Volume pot. Play. If it sounds right, it IS right. If a particular 12AX7 has odd voltages or needs a very different Volume setting, it's sick.  
 
12AT7 will drop in, be a bit less loud and slightly different voltages. Note the Volume setting needed. Try several. If most 12AT7 come to about the same electrode voltages and Volume setting, and one doesn't, the oddball is sick.  
 
12AU7 will drop in and work, somewhat different electrode voltages, but far lower audio gain. Short-out the 500K resistor, it should play OK. Try several. Oddballs are sick.  
 
Tap the tubes and listen to the speaker. "dink" is normal, "CLANGGK!!! is microphonic. A microphonic tube may get-by as a PI or trem-oscillator, but will be trouble in preamp or reverb recovery amp.  
 
6L6, 6V6, 6550 will all work in the Champ output, with same cathode resistor and nearly same gain and output. Add a 1Meg resistor pin 1 to pin 8 so you can test EL34 and 7027. Watch cathode voltage when you turn-on: a slow rise to 20V is normal, a rapid rise or going much over 20V is a shorted or gassy tube.  
 
Add a 9-pin socket for 6BQ5/EL84. You can use the same cathode resistor as for the 6V6-6L6 series. It will be a bit underbiased (cool); you could give the 9-pin socket its own lower cathode resistor.  
 
Make the power tube grid resistor 1Meg. Probe this voltage soon after start-up and again after some playing. It should stay within a volt of zero. Gassy tubes may show several volts and possibly increasing over time. These could get in real trouble in fix-bias amps. Hot tube releases gas into the vacuum, which can cause the grid to rise positive, which makes the tube run hotter, which releases more gas.... run-away. And in "fix" bias,there's no self-bias stabilization. Fix-bias amps favor 100K grid resistors for this reason. But if it is marginally unstable at part-power and 1Meg, it should not be trusted at full power even with a smaller grid resistor.  
 
You can test 6AV6 6C4 and other single-triode small tubes with another socket jumpered to the 12AX7 socket. Break two leads to the section of 12AX7 that you are replacing with a single-triode.  
 
It seems like a lot of work, but it tells you how a tube PLAYS, which is what you really want to know. And most real-sick tubes will be obvious from the initial poke: if most 12AX7 sit with 150V-170V on the plate, and you find one that sits 100V or 240V, it isn't a happy 12AX7 (it might be a happy 12AU7...). The first strum will tell you if Rp and Gm and all that crap is about-right. "Tube Testers" won't usually tell you if a tube hisses, or CLANGGs, or rattles, or has dirty-crackly pin-tarnish, or just "sounds boring".  

 

Offline jhadhar65

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2008, 04:02:44 pm »
This is the most forum information about tube testers I've seen in one place ever - much of it I've never seen before.

[size=18]EXCELLENT THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]

I've reaped it for my personal archives already and I'll keep watching for anything else to be added.   [smiley=CompleteFrog.gif]

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2008, 08:02:24 pm »
Come on guys,  why do it on the cheap?  Take out a second mortgage, and buy the "cadillac"...

http://www.amplitrex.com/at1000.html

...only $2550       :o

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 01:37:22 am »
Quote
Come on guys,  why do it on the cheap?  Take out a second mortgage, and buy the "cadillac"...

http://www.amplitrex.com/at1000.html

...only $2550       :o


waaay too modern... it has LCD display ;D  ;)

try this one on...

http://www.tubesontheweb.com/matic.htm

Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2008, 04:10:35 am »
Quote
buy the "cadillac"...

Does it come with an optional vinyl top?

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 08:10:45 am »
Quote

Does it come with an optional vinyl top?


...tolex

Offline FYL

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2008, 10:14:27 am »
Quote
...tolex

Won't do. I want real cotton twill with 6 coats of old-style nitrocellulosic lacquer. And a grade 1 pine enclosure with brass hinges. And big Weston analog meters. And dual rectos, preferably with a 83 merc-vapor for B+.

You know, tubes tested on modern equipment can't have the mojo, you need to use a Limited Edition Distressed Modern Vintage™ tester.

 8-)

Offline RicharD

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Offline HCS

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 10:06:35 pm »
It depends what you want it for, but here is some advice.
FWIW, I have owned/worked on just about every type of tester made.  I ran the main hickok tester site on the net and contributed to Alan Douglas' book.  I am referenced in there and got on the 'thanks' page.  
 If you just want to test for shorts and for 'good' 'bad' and be 60% sure that is what they are, you can get any cheap emission style tester(Heath, Eico....). They aren't accurate for telling if a tube will work well in a high voltage amp, but they are accurate to test for shorts. You can scan them with the cheap tester, then put them into an amp and compare them to good tubes(measure and listen). That is a good fairly cheap way to sort through a big pile of tubes. Just don't toss a 'Bad' tube because the tester says so.....you will toss good tubes.

There is no 'cheap' tester that will really work accurately. Hickoks are the most common and reasonable 'good' tester and will do a 85-90% accurate job of testing tubes for you. I used to work on and repair testers and have collected/used most of them out there. A good, calibrated Hickok 600/533/605 is probably your most economical solution if you want to invest in a tester. They are nice, well made testers. Make sure it has been updated/calibrated.......most are 40 years old with dried caps, bad connections and out of calibration. You should be able to find one for $200 if you search. Don't buy the $100, "it worked last time I used it...20 years ago' tester. Calibration will cost $150 plus shipping(plus repair work).
Here is a great article to read and a mirror to a site I put up years ago for tester enthusiasts. My site is gone, but his mirror is still running:
TESTER ARTICLE http://www.geocities.com/hickoktubetesters/testarticle.pdf
Straub Hickok Site http://www.geocities.com/hickoktubetesters/

Hope that long winded answer helps.....
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 10:12:48 pm by HCS »

Offline Hemi526

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Re: tube tester
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 03:04:46 pm »
I've decided to take micks advice and build a champ tube tester. Its a lot of fiddling around to test different tubes but the up side is its fun to build and I end up with another amp. I was thinking about building a champ in an end table anyway. Id love to be able to pug into my end table and play some tunes in my living room. I was also thinking about doing the same thing with a coffee table only making the top a guitar case. Possibly even with a glass top and lit up from behind. Take the guitar out of the coffee table, plug it into the coffee table and wala, your playing. Heh, imhigh jacking my own thread.
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