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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: HoSo56 amp project...design input sought  (Read 127987 times)

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Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2009, 08:59:12 pm »
Well, I'm getting really close to the tone, but have had to make some major changes to get there (as follows):

*Completely changed the tonestack to 5F6-A/JTM-45 specs. The BF stack was just too glassey & bright & lacked midrange. The new TS is smooth & full. Used a 500p treble cap, .02/.02 mid & bass.

*Changed the pentode setup to: 100k Rp / 470k Rs / 820 Rk / 2.2uf Ck / 0.1uf Cs

*V2b Rk changed to 3.3k

I am currently experimenting with adding just a touch of NFB....seems to help calm the pentode hisssss down a bit & smooth out the overdrive a little more.

Still working.....once I get the basic circuit right, then it's on to the MV (any progress, Heinz??)
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Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2009, 08:41:22 am »
OK, here's what the 5879 Soho preamp looks like now, & it sounds EXCELLENT!!! (see .sch file below)
Once again, it is just the basic circuit (sans bump & "tweaked" MV) but it nails the tone!

It took a long time to get the pentode component values correct, but I settled on ~ 1/2 way between the AC15 values & the lower gain values that the "ValveWizard" suggested (see previous link to his article).

Once I got the amp sounding "pretty good", I remembered that the OT I had used was way oversized (and cheap, a 40-50w Weber China unit).
I subbed in an old 1963 Schumacher 18w unit I had & the amp CAME ALIVE!  :o
Once you get the amp dialed in, then all you have to do is adjust your guitar volume to get jangly clean or fat overdrive....I can even replicate the "bump" function using my Barber DirectDrive set to clean boost. That kicks it up to heavy overdrive that is just like what's heard on the video.

I'm going to use the amp tonite @ a gig for the "true test", but have really high hopes. If it sounds anything close to what it does in the shop, then this circuit is a keeper!

I'll update after the gig tonite........

To recap, the attached preamp is run into an 5F6-A/JTM-45 type tonestack (500p/.02/.02/33k slope), then a 1M pot (MV), then to the PI & poweramp as shown earlier.

Oops, forgot to say that I reduced the PI plate resistors (x2) from 100k to 68k....that gave it more clarity & definition when overdriven. Also, the 470k/.01uf R/C after before the tonestack is very important. It shifts the frequency in a way that really sweetens the tone.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 07:26:02 pm by da Geezer »
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Offline gregarious

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2009, 01:21:46 pm »


After watching THIS video of Peter Stoud playing one of his 65Amps "Soho" 18w'ers, I really want to build one!

*************************************

Another variation on the theme...





Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2009, 10:14:27 am »
Got it! IN SPADES!!!!!!  ;D

After almost giving up on this project (pentode circuit values were really frustrating me!) I gave it another shot this morning & got it right!

Attached is the "final" schematic, & here are the basics (once again, this does NOT have the "bump" feature):

*** Used the "ValveWizard" values that  are mentioned in an article I linked a few posts up. REALLY cleaned up the pentode & it drives the next stages into sweet overdrive in a way that is VERY pleasing to the ear.

*** Used "smoothing" caps parallel with the plate resistors of the 5879 & 12AX7 stages. That removed the harsh "hash" & gives a super sweet tone! (did I mention the tone is really sweet!  8) )

*** Have a switch on the V2A cathode bypass cap to switch a 25uf cap in/out. That gives a great range of tones with only a slight re-adjustment of the tone controls.....very high gain with it switched "in".
NOTE: I think this could be used as a "bump-like" feature if another volume & tone control were switched in at the same time....(I'll work up a drawing & see what you guys think)

***Marshall type tonestack with a Master/trim pot after....this really helps to control/adjust the amount of drive to the PI. Very useful.

This is a GREAT sounding amp. In fact, it is the best overdrive amp I've built so far! Simply NAILS the tone(s) heard on the videos of the pentode amps we've been seeing (Soho, AC15 Heritage, etc).
It's not a "one trick pony", either......wide range of tones are available, from fairly clean to blues, to heavy R&R overdrive. Really does a nice "bloom", too! Get in front of the cab & hold a chord....she just sustains into ringing overtones.....I love it!

Have I mentioned how much I like this amp (& how sweeeet the tone is)?  ::)

Thanks to all who contributed, especially Heinz & Tubenit, but really everyone who chimed in with ideas!

Geez'r
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 10:25:34 am by da Geezer »
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Offline tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2009, 10:36:33 am »
DaGeezer,  I'll try to draw up a (paralleled) layout for it tomorrow and post it.  Let's put this in the SCH library for sure!

Thanks for the hardwork and perseverance!!    When you can, try to post some sound clips. I'm interested in what your specific amp sounds like.

Thanks, Tubenit

Offline bigsbybender

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2009, 10:48:33 am »
Yes, Thanks again for doing all the hard work for us  ;)

I have been wanting to do a pentode front,  I have a few old EF86s and MANY 6AU6's around...but that'll probably be down the road. Now I've got something to copy.

3 Cheers!

j.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2009, 11:57:56 am »
DaGeezer

Can you help out please?  Can you edit the B+ rail ?  And I don't know if you used a tube rectifier and if so what kind?

Maybe post voltages for the major B+ rail nodes too?

Thanks, Tubenit

Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2009, 01:03:16 pm »
Here's the updated schem (w/ B+ rail).....

I used SS recto & separate nodes for each section (so there's an additional node over Heinz's)

This used to be a 5E7, then a November, then who knows what, now it's this, so maybe not optimal setup, but it works!  G
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Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2009, 01:06:32 pm »
Quote
can you guys take a look at the layout board and confirm it looks right


Looks right to me....
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Offline tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2009, 01:30:25 pm »

hey DaGeezer,

I know you left out a "boost" but if you wanted one this would be a really easy one to try.  You can experiment by simply removing the connecting wire from bass to treble and use a wire with alligator clips to hear the difference. The paralleled cap with the DPDT version really gives it a huge boost. 

I use a PAB on all three of my amps cause it gives a great tone for me and it's an easy mod to do.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline The Radium King

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2009, 05:58:28 pm »
might i suggest seeing what it sounds like when you send the ef86 output (post volume) to the pi, bypassing the 12ax7 stages (like an ac15)? if it sounds good, then it's a simple dpdt switch to have both configs available to you.

the pentode/triode switch ala vox is also a tried and true option.

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2009, 06:13:09 pm »
I've been playing this thing for hours!  :o   can't....stop.....

I've done another "tweak"....
I now have the V2A bypass cap wired to an "on-off-on" switch....
* center is "off"/no bypass cap/low(er) gain
* "up" is the 25uf bypass cap, best with the Strat/Tele/P90 Single Coils
* "down" is a 0.1uf cap, best with Les Paul/Humbuckers

Honeymoon, I know, but so far this is absolutely the best sounding amp I've ever built! There are so many tones in there by turning the gain up & the trim (into the PI) down, or vise-versa.

Oh....forgot to mention that I have installed a Cross-line MV (ala Matchless, but 500kA) and it works fantastic! Really increases the versatility...I LOVE this amp!

Sluckey is sending me an "off the wall" pentode to try in another build.......I'm building another one of these to run "Stereo" in my stereo 2x12 cab!

I'll update the schemo with the new additions..........

Quote
might i suggest seeing what it sounds like when you send the ef86 output (post volume) to the pi, bypassing the 12ax7 stages (like an ac15)? if it sounds good, then it's a simple dpdt switch to have both configs available to you.

the pentode/triode switch ala vox is also a tried and true option

I tried it that way before I found the "magic" pentode circuit values....maybe I should try it again, but I really don't think it could sound any better than it does right now (but it could be "different" in a good way...)
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2009, 01:59:40 am »
> responds really well to pick attack....cleans up with a light pick, then distorts when dug into! Also responds well to the guitar volume, and it's a "smooth" type of compressed overdrive, but still retains definition....I like it alot!

Assuming normal picking and pickup, and roughly 250V supply: a triode will not overload (much), a pentode's higher gain probably can overload. And for most biases, the pentode's overload is more complex than a triode.

> I believe there was some "pentode high impedance" thing involved in this.

"Pentode" covers a wide spectrum. For maximum low-frequency voltage gain you work very high impedance and low current. For driving loads, or maximum high-frequency bandwidth, you can work a large pentode with a low impedance albeit at high current.

So "it depends".

> what I've read is that the "target" ballpark is keeping the screens @ 2/3 voltage of the plates or less.

Well, the get-it-working easy path is:

Pick a plate DC load resistor based on your audio load impedance.

Note the Typical ratio of plate/screen current, usually 3 to 5.

Find a screen resistor 3 to 5 times bigger than your plate resistor. (You see why 220K+1Meg is a common setup.)

Start with 1K cathode resistor and adjust so that plate sits "about half" of B+.

That works, is stable and consistent with supply or tube changes, will give good gain and output (after you bypass screen and cathode).

In gitar amps, "good" may not be "best" so you will be, as bluesbear wisely says, "just fiddling around till it sounds right.".

Tubes:

6J7/6SJ7 is the classical audio pentode, and IMHO 6J7 is mighty hard to beat. True, it has no glow (metal).

6AU6 is the classical post-war all-purpose sharp pentode. It is however a bit bigger than we need for most audio chores (300mA heater).

5879 is intended for audio gain applications. 150mA heater. It claims low microphonics. I've worked with a lot of 5879 gear, neither great nor crap.

> an "off the wall" pentode

Bah. 5654 is just a premium 6AK5, which happens to be (IIRC) the very first of the wretched "miniature" tubes. The "mini" idea was partly about size, partly cost, and was essential for getting gain at very high frequencies (dozens of MHz)... trying to work an Octal at 20MHz is like tapping a drum-roll with a 20-foot fishing pole. Huge quantities made for OEM and service, still available cheap ($5), and really a fine little bottle.

"Pentode microphonics" is partly about complicated internal structure, partly because they are hard to make well never mind "solid", but do not forget that pentodes can give HIGH gain per stage, and if you stacked good triodes to the same gain you might have the same microphonics.

Pentodes will always give higher hiss than a similar triode; this may be a non-issue with modern pickups.

Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2009, 06:09:33 am »
>And for most biases, the pentode's overload is more complex than a triode.

Yes, it's very complex....never have been able to get this tone out of a triode.

>what I've read is that the "target" ballpark is keeping the screens @ 2/3 voltage of the plates or less.

I'll try to post the voltages on the schematic today so that some analysis can be done.....

>In gitar amps, "good" may not be "best" so you will be, as bluesbear wisely says, "just fiddling around till it sounds right."

Yes, I "fidded" a bunch....almost gave up. I had read from several sources though, that "the effort was worth the time" (when it came to pentodes) and they were correct!

>5654 is just a premium 6AK5

Any suggestions on a starting point w/ the 5654? Should I just use the circuit values I have now & go from there??
http://tubedata.itchurch.org/sheets/084/5/5654.pdf
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2009, 09:27:57 am »
I'm working on adding the voltages to the schem now.....

BTW, since most of the tone seems to be coming from the preamp (still has the cranked poweramp tone, even with the MV turned way down...has to be the pentode), then I think this amp would translate into a larger poweramp very nicely (4xEL84's/30w, 2xEL34/50w....heck, even a 4xEL34/100watter would probably be good.

Just food for thought..... ;)
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Offline tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2009, 11:26:52 am »
DaGeezer,

How much hiss is there at idle?  And any problems with oscillation or microphonics that you hear?

I know they are different critters ...... but do you like this amp better than the Little Wing?

After you post voltages, let's place this in the SCH files? OK?

With respect, Tubenit

(I corrected the layout a few posts earlier to reflect the crossline master volume. I usually use Hoffman's 1MA pot with a spst to turn the mstr vol off/on when I use a crossline).


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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2009, 11:33:24 am »
Schematic with voltages is attached.

OK....now, as I was taking the voltages I found an error (a possible "Happy Mistake"?)

Look at the attached jpeg...the left diagram shows how the 470k/0.01uf r/c is supposed to be wired.
The right side diagram is how it actually IS wired.

Looks like the CF is biased really cold...is that correct? It's going thru 570k resistance to get to ground, instead of the normal 100k.

I'm almost afraid to correct it, but I will, in order to see what the difference might be in tone. It may be even better (?), but if it's not (or worse) then I'm putting it back to the "wrong" way.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 11:39:55 am by da Geezer »
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2009, 11:38:59 am »
Quote
How much hiss is there at idle?

Slightly more than a single triode....possibly ~ the same as paralleled triodes (not too much at all) at normal operating volumes. You can hear the hiss pretty good, though, if you completely dime all controls.

Quote
And any problems with oscillation or microphonics that you hear?

None whatsoever....I can tap on the 5879 w/ no ringing at all.

Quote
I know they are different critters ...... but do you like this amp better than the Little Wing?

Completely different, and yes, I like it much better, but this was the tone I was looking for....pretty much overdiven to some degree at all times....
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2009, 12:34:55 pm »
OK, I fixed the "mistake", as follows:

** Changed the 100k Rk on V2B (cathode follower) to the correct placement, before the 470k/.01u r/c network, directly from the cathode, instead of after the r/c network (see drawing above).
This changed the character of the amp in a bad way.....lost much of the sweet overdrive tone... :'(

** Remembered that I had raised the V2A Rk to 3.9k to get the gain under control. So, I put that Rk back to the standard 1.5k, hoping to put some of the overdrive back in....It worked!

The amp now sounds even better! There's more clarity to notes & especially chords. I guess that's the result of everything being biased "correctly".

WooHoo!!

I'll change the schem to reflect the different components & resulting voltage changes.
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #119 on: March 01, 2009, 12:47:33 pm »
Updated / corrected schematic>>>





EDIT:  schematic and layout is now in the SCH library
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6176.new#new
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 02:47:44 pm by tubenit »
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2009, 10:07:55 pm »
> This changed the character of the amp in a bad way.....

The output of the overloaded pentode is like a hundred volts.

The signal needed at the power-amp driver to overload the output tubes is like one volt.

So if you ever want to hear input stage overload, you NEED a BIG loss in between.

The tone-stack loss is roughly 20:1. Not enough.

Your "mistake" is a ~~5:1 divider. 20:1 * 5:1 = 100:1. Now you have the pentode overload near-balanced with output section overload. Turn it down a trice, you have whacked-up pentode and near-clean power stage. You can shift it down to whacked-pentode and wispering power stage, or up to where both pentode and power stages are suffering for your art.

Yes, the GE data for 6AK5/5456 Amplifier is a known-good starting point. Fender-fans will start at RL=100K Rgf=240K, which are the ballpark conditions Fender used, and fairly valid for high-gain audio amps generally.

This table gives conditions for 200r and 100K drive. A pickup is 5K, a tube or tone-stack is more like 100K. The differences are not huge, and probably less than the differences you'll wind-up "fiddling in" while tweaking for tone. So RK of 200 or 300 is a pile of brown-stripe resistors, 220 or 270 to start.

The higher RL values give higher gain but less bandwidth. The 510K loading for nominal gain of 390, with typical stray capacitance, will give bandwidth of 10KHz or even 3KHz. And of course a gain of 390 is way too much for any single audio stage unLESS you are looking for gross distortion. Which you are, so go ahead and whip it.

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #121 on: March 02, 2009, 01:44:22 am »
Fair Radio will sell you pull-out 6AK5 for $8.... for ten!. $50 for a hundred. I remember 33-cent tubes when the vacuum-bubble burst in the late 1960s, happy days are here again.
 http://www.fairradio.com/catalog.php?mode=view&categoryid=1417

Very early data-sheet for 403A/6AK5/5654 tube:
 http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/403A.pdf
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 09:12:43 pm by PRR »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #122 on: March 02, 2009, 02:56:37 am »
Fair Radio will sell you pull-out 6AK7 for $8.... for ten!. $50 for a hundred. I remember 33-cent tubes when the vacuum-bubble burst in the late 1960s, happy days are here again.
 http://www.fairradio.com/catalog.php?mode=view&categoryid=1417

Very early data-sheet for 403A/6AK5/5654 tube:
 http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/403A.pdf

nice!  :)

do you think the pentode in the link below would do well as a low watt SE for reverb or 1-2W practice amp? maybe use 6ak5 or 6au6 for driver?  ???

http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/084/4/418A.pdf

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2009, 07:10:48 am »
DaGeezer,   Hope you won't mind a bunch of questions ....... I am planning to convert one of my amps into your
HoSo 56.  Some of the changes in my schematic are for convenience to work with what I already have in the donor amp.

1)  I was gonna use one input.  Do you actually use both the high and low input?

2)  I have some different tone stack pot values (like a 500k bass)  Any concern .... do I need a 1M?

3)  I am gonna try a PAB since it's already there.

4)  I am gonna use the passive effects loop since the amp won't have reverb (gasp!) & I can use digital delay

5)  I already have a NFB switch installed. With it on, it should clean up the tone some. With it off, it's like your amp.

6)  Do you have both a Trim pot after the tone stack and a crossline Mstr Vol ???   Should I have both? If I
     had only one ........ which would you use the Trim pot or crossline Mstr Vol?

7)  You had one of the phase invertor plates showing to be hooked up to node B ......... is that correct or simply a
     mistake in how it's drawn?
   ( Are they both hooked up to node C?)

8)  I really like 2.2k screen resistors on power tubes because it adds some compressed tone.  Think those will work
     OK?

9)  I'm gonna use a GZ34 rectifier instead of the solid state rectifier. Any concerns?

10)  I am gonna use a 32uf at node A  &  10uf at node E.   Think that's OK?

11)  I typically use Orange Drop with tone stacks and anything prior to the LTPI and Mallory150 in phase invertor.
       That sound reasonable?   BTW, my tone stack caps are mounted on a terminal strip soldered to the mid pot.

 


At your convenience, can you answer the questions?  Anything else that I should be mindful of?  I'm gonna order some stuff from Hoffman and get started rebuilding this amp in the immediate future.   

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 07:14:41 am by tubenit »

Offline Heinz

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2009, 08:01:02 am »
I've been following DaGeezer's progress with great interest. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to experiment for more than a week, but I finally had some time yesterday to evaluate different MV concepts. I'm still trying to make the original SoHo design work, but to no avail.

The MV before the PI has an audible influence on the distortion at higher gain settings (which is why you build this amp). Turning down the MV in this spot also cleans up the tone to some extent. Obviously, the PI contributes to the overdriven sound. The crossline MV sounds very harsh and thin when turned down, at least in my amp. I don't know if this is inherent in this design or if it is a flaw in my prototype (DaGeezer will hopefully shed some light on this). I liked a dual pot after the PI best. It sounds very natural, even at bedroom levels. Maybe this helps with question 6.

if you move the PAB-switch down below the mid pot and use a rotary switch to switch in resistors from 10k to infinity, you will have the 'original' bump feature with some in-between settings. It will probably give you more low end as well.

I have also played with large screen resistors (my pair of 6BM8s need 4k7 at 300V) and I like the compression for playing clean or slightly overdriven. Adding a cap to stabilize the screen voltage helps to define the tone at high gain settings (my personal taste). You could tie the screens together, use a single 1k (double wattage) screen resistor and add a switchable cap (a few uFs will do). It's a simple mod and you may like the effect (and revert to the original design if you don't).

Good luck with your conversion! I'd love to hear some samples when you're finished.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:28:11 am by Heinz »
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Offline Geezer

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2009, 09:55:02 am »
1= I used 1 input/33k
2= prob OK...either more or less bass control, don't have time to calc it right now....
3= OK
4= OK
5= Good move
6= yes/both....trim pot is very important to get the tone right. MV only to get the overall volume down.
7= Both PI plates to "C"....schem wrong
8= 2.2k OK
9= GZ34 great!
10= cap values OK
11= Suspect OD's will make it brighter (?)...but should be OK.

>Anything else that I should be mindful of?

I also put some comments on the schematic thread....take a look there.

Gotta' run.....G
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2009, 10:13:01 am »
DaGeezer,

Thanks man!  I already removed the chassis and ordered some stuff from Doug. Looking forward to this build and will keep you posted.  You sure have come up with some fantastic ideas and amps!

Thanks for all you do contributing to the forum!!  I did read the SCH notes & they were helpful.

Best regards, Tubenit

Offline Boots Deville

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2009, 11:40:10 am »
I'm a bit choke-ignorant... what would be appropriate choke specs to look for, for this power supply?

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2009, 12:43:14 pm »
Choke = 5H/120Ω DCR, but only because that's what I had on hand...anything close (like Doug's "small" Fender type choke) will work just fine.

Found on this page>>> http://www.hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=enter&thispage=parts1.htm&ORDER_ID=!ORDERID!
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2009, 02:57:17 pm »
DaGeezer,

Just getting some clarity here

Quote
Try different values for the "smoothie" caps across the plate resistors (probably lower, if you want more of the Voxy "chime")

When you say lower values ............ I am presuming you mean smaller values.  A 250p would give more high frequencies than a .001 right?  And .001 would allow more "lower" frequencies to pass thru?

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #130 on: March 03, 2009, 06:26:45 pm »
By lower I mean, as in: 250p is lower value than 500p

Don't know about the lows, but yes, a 250p would cut out less high frequencies than a 500p.

I would just start with no smoothing caps at all & add as/if needed, to your own taste & to your guitars high freq response....
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2009, 09:17:45 pm »
OK...."new twist" idea here, for critique & opinions.

The "Boost" cap (bypassing V2A Rk) works wonderfully, but needs some tweaking of the tonestack to sound it's best. And when it's tweaked right, it sounds incredible!

So, I thought of making it footswitchable (w/ a relay) AND.....at the same time (with another DPDT relay) switch in another full tonestack dedicated solely to the "Boost".

I have attached a schematic of the proposed mod.

In "Normal" mode, the amp would be just that....."Normal".
Then, when the "boost" is switched in, the following would occur:
#1 - The V2A bypass cap would the switched into play, and...
#2 - The "Normal" tonestack would be totally bypassed (out of the circuit) & the "Boost" tonestack would be switched "on-line".
The "Boost" stack would even have it's own "Trim" pot to preset the volume boost.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:25:29 pm by da Geezer »
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #132 on: March 04, 2009, 09:24:39 pm »
Quote
I have attached a schematic of the proposed mod.

 ???   Where?

I ordered my parts from Hoffman yesterday and they came in today!!!  How's that for fast service!

Thanks for continuing to share!  I am looking forward to this build.

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #133 on: March 04, 2009, 09:30:56 pm »
Quote
Where?

Sorry, saw a mistake in the drawing, so I had to quickly delete them, make corrections & re-post....they should be there now..... :-[
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #134 on: March 05, 2009, 11:58:42 am »
OK, you asked for some thoughts ............     If I am understanding your schematic both tone stacks are the same with one connected to a boost w/a trim pot?   Is that correct? If that's incorrect, then disregard the following.

Two tone stacks which are the same seem redundant to me?  Anyway to simply switch in the cathode cap and a trim pot?   I'd personally try to work with one tone stack.

Have you tried the PAB idea?  It should just take a couple of minutes to experiment with by simply lifting the bass to treble pot connection.  I use it on all 3 of my amps and it works great for me. On a couple of amps I switched in a bigger cap with the PAB.  Thing I like about it is that the PAB gives just the right boost I am looking for. Not too much or too little.

I will start my rebuild this wkend & will keep ya posted on the progress.

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:11:07 pm by tubenit »

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #135 on: March 05, 2009, 03:10:49 pm »
The switchable, two tonestack thing is basically what mesa is doing with the Lonestar amps (albeit they have an extra tube stage available too).
Schem: http://www.schematicheaven.com/boogieamps/boogie_lonestar.pdf

It is a bit redundant, but it is also kind of cool for shaping two separate tones.

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #136 on: March 05, 2009, 03:18:26 pm »
Here is another idea that may be better than the previous two ideas I shared?  It switches out the ground on each pot so they are not interactive. And you could always add a cap on the trim pot for the boost.

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2009, 04:34:08 pm »
Quote
both tone stacks are the same with one connected to a boost w/a trim pot?

Well, sort of.....except both are exactly the same AND both have trim pots.
When the boost cap is switched in, it boosts the high frequencies into ear piercing levels (depending on how the treble & mids are set) and the bass can be overbearing for distortion w/ humbuckers.
However, if I adjust the treble, mid & bass controls, it has an amazingly wonderful tone!

So, the idea is to have "presets" for the T/M/B when the boost is activated, and go back to the old T/M/B settings when the amp goes back to "normal".
EDIT: the extra trim pot allows volume of the boost to be adjusted to louder or softer as needed.

Quote
Two tone stacks which are the same seem redundant to me

Yes, redundant, but necessary to achieve the tone I'm getting with the boost & re-adjustment of the tonestack, without having to actually re-adjust, & to make it instantly footswitchable.

Quote
Have you tried the PAB idea?

Yes, I tried it....unfortunately it doesn't sound anything like what I'm getting with the "boost".

Quote
The switchable, two tonestack thing is basically what mesa is doing with the Lonestar amps


uh-oh! Should I be expecting a "Cease & Desist" order from a certain "Mr. Smith"??  ;)

I guess what I was really wondering is...is there a better/more "elegant" way to do the switching?
Your last suggestion (diagram) got me to thinking that maybe just a ground lift would achieve what I'm looking for(?) & I would be able to eliminate at least one relay...I'll see if I can work something like that out.
Be back later w/ a new drawing (maybe)....
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 04:55:11 pm by da Geezer »
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2009, 04:52:59 pm »
How about this.....lifts the grounds of the unused tonestack & isolates it, so as to have no effect on the "used" stack. At the same time, grounds/ungrounds the boost cap.
At least I think that's what it does(?)

Someone check me.....TIA
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2009, 05:01:09 pm »

Hey, I think that looks good and would work just fine.  I am taking it that you're wanting to be able to switch to boost "on the fly" and have the tone preset.  If that's the goal, then the dual tone stacks and trim pots make sense to me.  Unfortunately I won't have room on the chassis I have since I can only get 6 pots on there. 


With respect, Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2009, 05:05:48 pm »
Quote
I am taking it that you're wanting to be able to switch to boost "on the fly" and have the tone preset.

Yes, that's what I'm shooting for.

Thanks for the look over....and this is not something that's necessary at all for this to be be a great amp, just "gravy".  8)
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2009, 09:34:33 pm »
> do you think the pentode in the link below would do well as a low watt SE for reverb or 1-2W practice amp?

418A? That's a $50 tube, when you can find it.

If you have a secret stash under the bed, sell it.

The abuse ratings are not much different from 50L6, 6Y6, etc... the low-voltage radio power tubes. Since these are 10% the price of 418A, it seems a waste.

Where the 418A shines is sensitivity. Where the other tubes need 8V-12V peak drive, 418A can be rigged to swing wildly with 1V-2V drive. In high-frequency work where gain is difficult and costly, that can mean a big advantage. In audio amps, you always need more than one stage and with 2 or 3 stages you usually have ample gain in hand.

418A as a minimal gitar amp needs an additional gain of 30 or so. So you could do it with a half an AX7. And sometimes when you need heavy reverb, your level after the first preamp is marginal for 12AT7 or 6F6 tank-driver and may lead to another stage; 418A will whack the tank.

Except: the maximum grid resistances are quite low. We are used to pushing this spec on the big fat tubes. You gotta be careful on this one: the high gain goes with very small grid-cathode spacing. It could have quite high grid leakage. If the grid starts to drift positive, it could go into runaway and melt. A low grid resistance is acceptable in MHz and RF circuits which inevitably have low impedance (capacitive strays). But we like high impedance in audio circuits.

Unless you can get 418A for a lot less than $50, a 6F6/6V6 plus maybe half a twin-triode is a lot more economic.

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2009, 11:28:24 pm »
> do you think the pentode in the link below would do well as a low watt SE for reverb or 1-2W practice amp?

418A? That's a $50 tube, when you can find it.

If you have a secret stash under the bed, sell it.

The abuse ratings are not much different from 50L6, 6Y6, etc... the low-voltage radio power tubes. Since these are 10% the price of 418A, it seems a waste.

Where the 418A shines is sensitivity. Where the other tubes need 8V-12V peak drive, 418A can be rigged to swing wildly with 1V-2V drive. In high-frequency work where gain is difficult and costly, that can mean a big advantage. In audio amps, you always need more than one stage and with 2 or 3 stages you usually have ample gain in hand.

418A as a minimal gitar amp needs an additional gain of 30 or so. So you could do it with a half an AX7. And sometimes when you need heavy reverb, your level after the first preamp is marginal for 12AT7 or 6F6 tank-driver and may lead to another stage; 418A will whack the tank.

Except: the maximum grid resistances are quite low. We are used to pushing this spec on the big fat tubes. You gotta be careful on this one: the high gain goes with very small grid-cathode spacing. It could have quite high grid leakage. If the grid starts to drift positive, it could go into runaway and melt. A low grid resistance is acceptable in MHz and RF circuits which inevitably have low impedance (capacitive strays). But we like high impedance in audio circuits.

Unless you can get 418A for a lot less than $50, a 6F6/6V6 plus maybe half a twin-triode is a lot more economic.

PRR, much thanks for taking the time to answer my question(s), i'd still like to play with a pair, if for anything, just out of curiosity and doing something just a bit different. sorry to say, no stash of them.. although i wish i did. lol!

at some point in the past, you suggested using an EL84 for a reverb driver and i did just that, actually, i used a 6gk6... it took some tweaking, but i did get it to work quite well and built it into an amp that i currently use.

to me, the 418 is intriguing enough to fiddle with. if i can find any, i'll keep the forum updated on the results.

$50.00 is not a problem... i've spent much more renting a bottle of scotch   :D

geezer, i should have started a new thread    - my apologies to all for the thread hijack...   i'll be  :-X now...

Offline tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #143 on: March 06, 2009, 09:44:01 am »
DaGeezer,

These are the two boost ideas I am considering.  I probably will try the PAB with the paralled treble cap first since I have used that and really like it. Paralleling the cap can shift the frequencies to the mids (which I like more). My guess is when you tried the PAB you did not parallel a cap also?

The other is following in your footsteps but taking in account that my chassis just flat does not have room for more than 6 pots.  So I will have to use a switch to adjust for boost volume and tone. I will try this one second.

Any thoughts on these?  I will start on the amp this wkend.

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 12:55:23 pm by tubenit »

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #144 on: March 07, 2009, 04:18:15 am »
Quote
My guess is when you tried the PAB you did not parallel a cap also?

Yes, that's correct.  :-[

Both of those look like good options to me.
Hope all goes well with the build....have fun!!
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5879 heater hookup?
« Reply #145 on: March 07, 2009, 09:03:23 am »

I know that pins 4 & 5 are the heaters for the 5879  V1  tube.

Normally, I keep the same "color" wire on the 12AX7 tubes.  Like in this example, the white wire goes to the 4&5 pins
hook up and the black wire to pin 9.

My question is should I hook up the white wire to pin 4 or pin 5 of the 5879 to minimize hum?  or does it matter?

This layout is going to be my first try prior to tweaks. I'm going to try the PAB with a paralleled cap 1st since that has worked so well for me previously.

Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #146 on: March 07, 2009, 09:12:26 am »
doesn't matter.  :)

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #147 on: March 07, 2009, 03:46:32 pm »
Stripped the amp of what wasn't needed for the conversion ..........

Then got the board built and installed, the power tube sockets rewired for EL84's, the pots stripped & remounted with buss wire, and the preamp sockets stripped ready for rewiring.    Mostly just need to run wires for the preamp sockets to the board, from the board to the pots and switches and check for errors ..............

..........then the smoke test!  The tubes came in today so I have the parts to fire it up. Gonna install a standby switch since I'm playing out more. If all goes well should have it working by tomorrow evening.

Tubenit

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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #148 on: March 07, 2009, 04:53:41 pm »
Quote
If all goes well should have it working by tomorrow evening.


Wow, you're makin' some serious progress!

I decided to forgo the dual tonestacks on this amp (but will add it to the next one, where the chassis will be designed especially for the "HoSo56").
I found that if I adjust the tonestack "down" just slightly (especially the treble) then when the boost cap is engaged, I can get the tone back where I want for the overdrive by simply rolling back the guitar tone control a bit to cut down some of the high end!
I'm installing the relay board now (all it will do is lift or ground the boost cap)

Can't wait to hear how you like yours (or not  ??? )  ;D
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 04:55:44 pm by da Geezer »
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Re: New EF86 amp project...design input sought
« Reply #149 on: March 07, 2009, 05:45:13 pm »

DaGeezer,

There has got to be a simple solution to toning down the treble when you throw your boost switch!!???

Can you try tacking in a paralleled 500p or .001 with the boost on and see if that tone is closer to what you want??

The reason I use a paralleled cap on the PAB's (most of the time) is to knock of the treble and add more mids and warmth.

I am confidant I will like the amp. And I anticipate like all of them that I'll tweak some stuff. I really like the mid tones alot and a smooth overdrive. I think I can dial that into this amp pretty easily.

With respect, Tubenit

 


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